daveinspain Posted March 8, 2009 Posted March 8, 2009 Ok, I need to make a comment but before I do I want to clarify that I am an American, I love America and will always think of the good old USA as my home and I will defend it to the end. Some people may want to flame me any way after this post but here goes... Socialism... is just a word. Many most of you have never experienced it or know how it actually works. When I moved to Spain in 1993 there was a Socialist government in power and the President was Felipe González. He had been in power many years, I think 12 or so.... Guess what, things here were pretty much the same as in the USA. I couldn't tell the difference, people worked, took vacations, went out and partied (lots of that), worked hard and played hard. The people who worked harder or maybe were smarter or more clever had more and enjoyed life more. The people less fortunate are able to take advantage of the government programs available to everyone. Ok, some people born into a wealthy family or with the right connections may have it easier but no one is held back who wants to push ahead... Then in 1996 the Spanish people voted José María Aznar as president, a Capitalist and guess what.... Nothing changed, people worked, took vacations, went out and partied (lots of that), worked hard and played hard. The Politicians changed, the label of the government changed but everything stayed more or less as it was... The people VOTED the Socialist out of power and brought in the Capitalist party. With 12 or so years in power the new government found lots of corruption in the old regime which brought a good house cleaning and things seemed better than ever. President Aznar did some great things in his two terms as President, two four years terms just like in the USA. The people were very content with him and his party the PP (Popular Party which = Capitalist Party) and was sure to be voted in again even though Aznard felt two terms were enough and wasn't running for a third term. Then March 11, 2004 happened. The Spanish equivalent to 9/11. Just two weeks before the Spanish elections terrorists set off a series of bombs in the metro system in Madrid, 191 people were killed. This act was just enough to tip the scales back to the socialist party because of president Aznards strong alliance with President Bush and his sending troops to the middle east. The Spanish people felt targeted by the terrorist for that reason and voted in the Socialist candidate who promised to pull the Spanish troops out of the Middle East. The Spanish people VOTED in once again the Socialist government and guess what.... nothing changed, people worked, took vacations, went out and partied (lots of that), worked hard and played hard. Socialism is Democratic. It's not even close to Communism... Health care, Spain has social heath care for its people. So what does that mean? If you need to go to the hospital there is no cost, no cost... Some will say, oh yeah that's great if you want to wait six months or be told no to some kind of needed heath care. Not true. If you have an emergency you go to the front of the line. if you have something, not life threatening you will have to wait your turn, could be a couple weeks or could be a couple months depending what it is and how urgent it is. But wait, you can also have private health insurance so if you choose not to use the social medicine you can go to a private hospital and get what you need with no waiting and a private room if you want. Because there is the social medicine available to the people as an alternative the private heath insurance is much more affordable. Many businesses offer private health insurance to their workers and many people buy their own heath insurance but it is not necessary... The social medicine care is very good, the doctors are good, not second rate by any means. i was on my Harley one day and a stupid girl talking on a cell phone ran a red light and hit me. I was taken to the hospital in an ambulance they did X-rays, treated me, gave me medication and sent me home... No charge. I have had family and friends visit me here and a couple of times I had to take some one to the hospital emergency room. They were looked at, treated, medicated and sent home... They never had to fill out any forms or sign anything. Social medicine can work but it needs to be complemented buy an affordable private insurance and the frivolous lawsuits in the USA must come to an end. The main reason heath care is so expensive is because of what doctors have to spend on medical insurance... Once again, I am American, I love the USA but some times you need a bit of distance and outside experience to see things clearer... Ok, let the flames begin.....
Rosewoody Posted March 8, 2009 Posted March 8, 2009 Good post, but you better put your asbestos suit on. The word socialism brings out the reflexes.
KSG_Standard Posted March 8, 2009 Posted March 8, 2009 Two observations: 1) You say that a person can go to the hospital and there's no cost....Somebody is paying, there is a cost. You can go to any hospital in American, and get free treatment too, it's against the law to deny coverage based on an inability to pay. 2) One of the reason's that American healthcare cost is high, is as you mentioned, lawsuit insurance. That's not the only reason or the main reason, imho, there is also the cost of the student loans, the medical equipment, the drug costs. As far as I know, Spain is not known for developing new drugs or for having the best medical schools.
KSG_Standard Posted March 8, 2009 Posted March 8, 2009 I am not a Socialist.... That's good, neither am I! I'm an Aries...
daveinspain Posted March 8, 2009 Author Posted March 8, 2009 Two observations: 1) You say that a person can go to the hospital and there's no cost....Somebody is paying' date=' there is a cost. You can go to any hospital in American, and get free treatment too, it's against the law to deny coverage based on an inability to pay. 2) One of the reason's that American healthcare cost is high, is as you mentioned, lawsuit insurance. That's not the only reason or the main reason, imho, there is also the cost of the student loans, the medical equipment, the drug costs. As far as I know, Spain is not known for developing new drugs or for having the best medical schools. [/quote'] man are you wrong there... Spain is known for inovation and medical advancents... Spain is number one in organ transplants, just as an example. Also very advanced in eye care and dental.... Spain is not a third world country anymore.
KSG_Standard Posted March 8, 2009 Posted March 8, 2009 https://www.espicom.com/Prodcat.nsf/Search/00000373?OpenDocument http://www.marketresearch.com/product/display.asp?productid=2107340&g=1
daveinspain Posted March 8, 2009 Author Posted March 8, 2009 https://www.espicom.com/Prodcat.nsf/Search/00000373?OpenDocumenthttp://www.marketresearch.com/product/display.asp?productid=2107340&g=1 Marketing research done by the drug companies??? I'm sure it's very accurate Actually I'm not sure what you are saying by posting those links...
daveinspain Posted March 8, 2009 Author Posted March 8, 2009 I am not saying Spain is better or as good as or worse than anywhere else I just wanted to share my experience living here...
AXE® Posted March 8, 2009 Posted March 8, 2009 I really enjoyed Spain the two times I was there.... for what it's worth ...
surfpup Posted March 8, 2009 Posted March 8, 2009 The truth -- as always -- lies somewhere in between. That's the problem with these "debates". Some of you guys (on either side) seem to think that not only that you are 100% right, but that you are going to be able to somehow sway the others to your view with the brilliance of your rhetoric. Truthfully, both "sides" are a bit right and a bit wrong. And, most importantly, our country needs both! That to me is the beauty of our system. Throw all the liberals out of a plane without a parachute and we'd be in a mess. Throw all the conservatives out of a plane without a parachute and we'd be in a mess as well. Most of us land (pardon the pun) somewhere in the middle anyway. My .02. I'm done.
Steven Tari Posted March 8, 2009 Posted March 8, 2009 I was living in Germany in the early 60's. One of my fathers stations was Berlin. This was when there was still barbwire fence still seperated the east and the west. I think it was in 60 or 61 that they started to put up the wall. Some of the things I overheard of what my father saw. Made me wonder. So After seeing people stareing at us across the Void made me sad. Thats why I've always been proud to live here, and take care of our NAVY.
KSG_Standard Posted March 8, 2009 Posted March 8, 2009 I'm just posting the information to make a small point. American pharmaceutical companies spend billions of dollars per year on research, manufacturing and marketing new life saving drugs. The also spend billions researching, developing and marketing stuff like Viagra... What is the last lifesaving drug from Spain? There is a cost associated with r&d on new drugs. In Spain, according to the two links I posted, there is not as much drug r&d, because the gov't buys the drugs at a lower rate than the public sector would. According to the links, Spain is 5th among EU countries in the pharma market. I was just posting the links to show this issue. Not trying to be argumentative. According to what I have read on the internet since your post, Spain's medical system has some fleas too. Spain has far fewer folks to take care of compared to the US too. There are two sides or more to every issue, I'm not knocking your side or your adopted country, but I like what we have here in the US. We should work on fixing the problems in American, not swapping out our system for socialized medicine. That's just my opinion...which is just as valid as anybody elses opinion. Cheers...
Thundergod Posted March 8, 2009 Posted March 8, 2009 That is a great post Dave (the starting post for this thread). I'm glad I read the whole thing. I too had to go to a hospital the second time I went to spain and there was no charge at all, and it was a nice hospital... and yes, their system is more socialist than anything else (and the girls are cute).
daveinspain Posted March 8, 2009 Author Posted March 8, 2009 We should work on fixing the problems in American' date=' not swapping out our system for socialized medicine. That's just my opinion...which is just as valid as anybody elses opinion. Cheers...[/quote'] Agreed.... I wish you or I had the answer and knew how to do it.
daveinspain Posted March 9, 2009 Author Posted March 9, 2009 That is a great post Dave (the starting post for this thread). I'm glad I read the whole thing. I too had to go to a hospital the second time I went to spain and there was no charge at all' date=' and it was a nice hospital... and yes, their system is more socialist than anything else (and the girls are cute).[/quote'] When were you in Spain?
NeoConMan Posted March 9, 2009 Posted March 9, 2009 Spain has social heath care for its people. So what does that mean? If you need to go to the hospital there is no cost' date=' no cost... [/quote']NOTHING is free. Somebody pays for it. What can you tell me about taxation there compared with the states? Where did you live in the US? - to make the comparison valid... Taxation is what pays for it, so who's paying the taxes? Sales tax, property tax, energy taxes, income taxes, I'm guessing the burden is shared "progressively" like here. I'm afraid Spain is Socialist enough that I wouldn't be comfortable living there, despite all I've heard about the place. Ok' date=' let the flames begin..... [/quote']Nah, you're a good guy Dave. Your post was well-written, insightful, and truly from a perspective none of us have here in the US.
James Allen Posted March 9, 2009 Posted March 9, 2009 Nah' date=' you're a good guy Dave. Your post was well-written, insightful, and truly from a perspective none of us have here in the US.[/quote'] I agree with this completely! I like the way you presented your argument. You didn't try to start a fight. I do disagree with a good portion of it, though. But I will abstain from making any points because KSG pretty much said everything I would have.
James Allen Posted March 9, 2009 Posted March 9, 2009 Sorry! I tried, but felt the need to show an important point concerning American healthcare as it now stands. There are a lot of people on these forums who by pointing out how "greedy" doctors and insurance companies are suggest that doctors are rich folks who care more about money than patients. This simply isn't true. Doctors are small business owners. And unlike most small business owners they have the GOV already dictating what they can charge for services. Imagine someone making a good living owning a guitar store. Then the GOV steps in and says that you have to take a 40% cut in fees. Then what if the guitar brands you sell decide to go up on thier prices to you by 20%. You are netting a 60% less income than the previous year. This is happening in the healthcare community. I see it alot owning my own medical billing company. Don't believe me? Here is a partial article from a Forbes business writer posted today by Tar Weiss on askmen.com. "Insurance has become a loaded word. One-third of the country is insured by Medicare, and over the next nine years, the government program plans to cut payments to physicians by about 40%, while practice costs are projected to increase 20%, according to the American Medical Association. The first of those cuts will take place in July, when the reimbursement rate to doctors will drop by 10.6%. The next cut of 5% will occur in January. It's expected to have a trickle-down effect. "If Medicare makes a change to their reimbursement, other insurance companies follow their lead, since Medicare drives the marketplace," says Lawrence Smarr, president of the Physician Insurers Association of America, a trade association for medical malpractice insurance companies. As costs continue to rise, many doctors say they need to see more patients in order to maintain their salaries and cover basic practice costs." Doctors (and insurance companies by default) have their fees dictated to them by the GOV, folks. Plain and simple. If they charge more, guess what, they have to write that off as a loss.
daveinspain Posted March 9, 2009 Author Posted March 9, 2009 Nah' date=' you're a good guy Dave. Your post was well-written, insightful, and truly from a perspective none of us have here in the US.[/quote'] Thanks Neo... I take that as a huge complement coming from you.... As far as the taxation goes it's not that different than the states, i think its about 33% percent income tax and the sales tax is a whopping 16% but sometimes it's only 7% depending on if its a service type thing or not... I'll try and get clearer information on that and let you know. The thing that picks up the slack and makes the health care affordable here is that people aren't lawsuit crazy.... If someone goes before a judge and says I was walking down the street and fell in a hole in front of my neighbor's house and asks for $10,000 for pain, suffering and lost wages the judge would just laugh at that person and say you should have been watching where you were walking... There are no adds from lawyers on TV telling you how to get the money you "deserve" from an accident. Insurance fraud hardly exists in Spain and I do believe that is one of the main problems contributing to the high cost of health care in America...
daveinspain Posted March 9, 2009 Author Posted March 9, 2009 NOTHING is free. Somebody pays for it. What can you tell me about taxation there compared with the states? Where did you live in the US? - to make the comparison valid... I was born and brought up in the Boston area.... Left home at a young age and moved to Florida with a Rock group I was running sound for. We got and album deal from a Producer, I was supposed to return home when we finished the album but i never returned home after that.. After 5 years in Southern Florida I moved to California where I lived one year in San Francisco and then 12 years in Los Angeles... So I have been around and have experienced living in different parts of the US and I must say Spain is not all that different aside from they speak Spanish all day long....
Thundergod Posted March 9, 2009 Posted March 9, 2009 When were you in Spain? In 98 I went on vacation, visited not only Spain (Madrid, Toledo and other small towns) but also Belgium (Brussels), Germany (Berlin and some other towns I can't remember right now) and Switzerland. In 2000-2001 I went to study production-recording-sound eng. I don't have my passport here with me right now tho so maybe the first time wasnt in 98 but 96 or 97.
NeoConMan Posted March 9, 2009 Posted March 9, 2009 Thanks Neo... I take that as a huge complement coming from you.... Aw' date=' shucks.... :-) ... makes the health care affordable here is that people aren't lawsuit crazy.... Lawsuits are just like divorce in the US, it has become viewed as a way to a payday. Now the generation that embraces such BS has raised kids of their own with those values already hard-wired. The have no values, integrity or ambition as a default mode anymore. If someone goes before a judge and says I was walking down the street and fell in a hole in front of my neighbor's house and asks for $10' date='000 for pain, suffering and lost wages the judge would just laugh at that person and say you should have been watching where you were walking...[/quote']Activist judges in the US need their asses kicked, then they need to be kicked off the bench. A percentage of them should be arrested for the sh!t they pull in their courts and their personal lives. They need to hear the opening statements of such lawsuits and tell the plaintiff "Get out of my court, your lawyer too." There are no adds from lawyers on TV telling you how to get the money you "deserve" from an accident. I remember in the eighties when TV began to run ads for law offices' date=' all the outrage that they were trolling for customers by encouraging ambulance chasers and attracting the lowest common denominator "poor me" suits. Law should be a profession with more respect for itself, and I would say those fears are now coming to fruition. Insurance fraud hardly exists in Spain and I do believe that is one of the main problems contributing to the high cost of health care in America... It's become the norm here. I personally know of a dozen cases of fraud over the last 15 years. Small time, but fraud none the less.
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