Should the U.S. Government Militarize the Southern Border?

[Riffster]

Neo I have to admit I was waiting for your input but c'mon man be more realistic. I mean the US benefits a lot from Mexico's cheap labor. Seal our borders on a global economy?

 

If illegal immigrants don't get hired they would not come. Workers don't come for a social vist you know? move by yourself 1,000 miles away for a shitty job and get discriminated againt? they come for money and work and have to live like animals sometimes.

 

So no punishment for employers? the guys that create the problem? you think our legal system can handle 15,000,000 arrests and deportations?

 

If you put a wall they will fly drugs in, say anything you want other than americans stop using drugs and the cartels will top you. I assure you.

[RichCI]

 

NO IT'S NOT!!!

 

We can secure EVERY border in the world except our own? Get the fxck outta here....

 

I spent 15 years in Texas' date=' going on 10 in Arizona.

I see the crime first hand. I see them pull bodies out of burned cars, out of shallow graves in the desert.

I see the shootouts on I-10.

I see the drop houses, the forclosed houses with squatters in them, the illegals by the dozens.

 

[b']Separate the problems into what they really are![/b]

 

Close the border with a fence, wall, moat with alligators, landmines, barbed wire, machine guns, I don't care.

Wanna come in the country?

Do it legally at at port of entry.

 

 

Yeah, there's a good idea... build a really long wall. You should ask the Chinese how that worked with Genghis Khan.

[KSG_Standard]

A fence won't stop all crossings, but it will slow them down and make it harder to get over the border. A better idea to stop illegal immagration might be to build a high speed, free train, with only two stops, Mexico City and Quebec. The folks that want to get out of Mexico to get a job and a new life, could get on the train, cross through America and arrive in the Progressive paradise that is Canada. Canada needs workers, and citizens and they would probably love to have the Mexican immigrants.

[RichCI]

American companies like Mexican immigrants too. As a social liberal, I don't believe the problem is illegal immigration, I think the problem is making immigration too difficult. My great grandparents came here from Italy and they managed to go through the process so what is the issue today? Why is it so hard to naturalize Mexicans who want to move to the country and work for cheap in the most basic capitalist sense?

[Riffster]

Americans are hiring. Actually tougher border security led to Mexicans staying here, they used to come and go after they had saved up. Now they come and stay and bring the family.

 

I had a new roof put on my house and the Amrican company that did the job used 100% Mexican workers.

 

The American company did not charge me any less for using cheap labor, they get to pocket the higher profits.

 

We do not mind paying lower prices for cheaper goods but we get bent out of shape when we realize how those low prices are achieved. What is it? 90% of things sold in America are made with cheap labor either in another country or right here.

 

These roofing guys worked 12 hours straight on 90 degree weather. Say what you want but this is the same story with the US since it was born. Immigrants doing the tough jobs.

[RichCI]

Americans are hiring. Actually tougher border security led to Mexicans staying here' date=' they used to come and go after they had saved up. Now they come and stay and bring the family.

 

I had a new roof put on my house and the Amrican company that did the job used 100% Mexican workers.

 

The American company did not charge me any less for using cheap labor, they get to pocket the higher profits.

 

We do not mind paying lower prices for cheaper goods but we get bent out of shape when we realize how those low prices are achieved. What is it? 90% of things sold in America are made with cheap labor either in another country or right here.

 

These roofing guys worked 12 hours straight on 90 degree weather. Say what you want but this is the same story with the US since it was born. Immigrants doing the tough jobs.

 

[/quote']

 

+1000

 

You won't see any American kids turning off their Playstations to do that work for cheap.

[Riffster]

 

+1000

 

You won't see any American kids turning off their Playstations to do that work for cheap.

 

True.

 

You know the day they did our roof I was thinking....these guys just busted their backs on an honest job for 12 hours, hard back-breaking work with less-than ideal safety and for a less than honest wage and I bet on their way home somebody is going to look down on them...

 

I built a paver patio last year by myself and I can tell you I have a whole new level of respect for people that do this hard work. I could not do it daily.

[Bluemoon]

I think our economy is going to take care of the illegal immigration problem.

[RichCI]

 

True.

 

You know the day they did our roof I was thinking....these guys just busted their backs on an honest job for 12 hours' date=' hard back-breaking work with less-than ideal safety and for a less than honest wage and I bet on their way home somebody is going to look down on them...

 

I built a paver patio last year by myself and I can tell you I have a whole new level of respect for people that do this hard work. I could not do it daily.[/quote']

 

Yup. I spent many summers working as a laborer for a few different landscaping outfits during breaks from college and it's hard work for crap pay. You rake rocks, shovel rocks, load/unload railroad ties and build retention walls out of them, dig holes to plant trees and pretty much any other heavy, dirty work you can think of. Heck, my first job when I was around 14 or 15 was picking tomatoes all summer for $.35 per basket at a farm around the corner from where I lived; that is DIRTY work - you end up covered with this green, sticky crap from the tomato plants after bending over all day to pick them.

 

Personally, I think that people who ***** about Mexican immigrants have never worked a day of hard labor in their lives.

[Bluemoon]

I do think we should militarize the northern border. ****ing Canadians with their Celine Dion, hockey sticks, maple syrup, and ****ed up accents. Keep them out. I am going to cut the next Canadian I see walking across the border.

 

[daerious]

The military has been used on the mexican border since at least 98 (that I know of for sure). Just not in mass.

 

No one has any problem with the mexican military patrolling their northern boarder? How about when they patrol Arizona and hold US border patrol agents at gunpoint in Arizona?

 

The military is exactly what the borders need more of, in mass, a dozen deep and shoulder to shoulder.

[Riffster]

Lets say the borders are heavily militirized. Closed tight. Close Florida drug highway somehow.

 

What is going to happen with the illegal drug use in the country? disappear overnight? are addicts and users going to say oh well, can't get the stuff now.

 

Pot is being planted in a lot of National Parks because the border is too freaking crazy even for other criminals.

[daerious]

My suggestion had nothing to do with drugs...

[Californiaman]

Illegal drub use in America is a big problem. It's not going to disappear overnight. Junkies are going to be junkies, if it's not heroin, it's Oxycontinin or some other form of opiate. The speed users are going to make crystal anyway they can. The pot users, well they're growing bud everywhere these days. Houses, farms, fields, all along the highways and byways, backyard gardens, and yes state and national parks.

I think we as a people need to take a good, long, hard look at ourselves and do a little self evaluation. If our country is as lazy and soft as I'm reading in this post (and have seen first hand in the high schools and colleges), and our work ethic is no longer something we can be proud of, then maybe we need to tighten our belts, put our shoulder to the plough and get to work doing the business of making American strong again, even if it's one community at a time.

[Basshole]

I say put troops on the border' date=' finish the fence and protect our borders against drug runners and illegal immigration. I also aggree in principal with Rich. We learned, or should have learned from prohibition, that you can't stop people from using drugs (alcohol included). Prohibition didn't stop people from drinking, it just strengthened organized crime and made the Kennedy familiy rich (which led to Teddy Kennedy becoming a Senator). Keeping all drugs illegal has created the trouble we see now on the border and made one of the cartel leaders one of the richest people in the world (his son will probably grow up to be a democratic senator too).

 

I don't think that we should legalize speed, coke or opiates...they are too addictive and dangerous. But the "war on drugs" as we've been waging it is a failure. Shouldn't we at least protect the border until we figure out what the right policy on drugs should be?

 

Dynadude, I'm not gay, or a draft dodger or a junkie.[/quote']

 

+1 We can also ad prostitution to this list as well, Make it legal and tax it.

[Riffster]

My suggestion had nothing to do with drugs...

 

The thread is actually about the problems with drugs...immigration got mixed in.

[daerious]

Yeah, I saw just now I kinda ignored 80% of the original post. Military on the border vs drug problem is two different issues. But anyway, military on the border, yes, but not because I think it will magically make drugs go bye bye in the US.

[djroge1]

Yes we need to tighten up our boarders all around. In case you didn't know not only do we get citizens of mexico coming across the boarder in Texas, we also get arabs that route. Yes their accent is different, but their skin color is very similar. Hmmm I wonder why an arab would want to sneak into our country? Makes me wonder.

[FirstMeasure]

Sorry man but you guys are way off with the embargo thing. And I mean way off.

 

Here is a bit. The biggest drug lord in Mexico offered the Mexican Federal Government to pay for the entire National Debt if he was left alone by the authorities. The Government said no.

 

By some of the comments in here I can tell some of you really don't know who the US is dealing.

 

Like KSG said the richest man in the world is a Mexican war lord. I do not recall his name' date=' I think Angel something.

 

If you saw the pictures of the people the mafia kills you would see the seriousness of this problem.

 

 

 

 

[/quote']

The Mexican Government refused the money because they know they can't play with the rest of the 1st world if they take that money from the Cartels. They'd be Peru, Columbia, Venenzuela, and places like that. They'd become a playground for Russia and China and Us, too. We'd be doing all kinds of Military Police Actions in Mexico if they became a Real Cartel Government.

 

Legalizing Drugs may change what they're dealing, but they'll stay a deadly CArtel till it's broken. The Mafia didn't disband simply because the 18th Amendment was repealed.

 

If there's Cartel Members killing people in America, we need to get the Mexican Government to take resposibility and start putting their resorces toward dealing with that problem. If they need our help, we'll help in conjuction with thier government, not instead.

 

BTW, I realize exactly how serious a Guerilla Invasion from our bordering country is, and I realize that the "Drugs" they're killing for is not the problem. The criminal element allowed to run Rampant is the problem.

[FirstMeasure]

 

NO IT'S NOT!!!

 

We can secure EVERY border in the world except our own? Get the fxck outta here....

 

I spent 15 years in Texas' date=' going on 10 in Arizona.

I see the crime first hand. I see them pull bodies out of burned cars, out of shallow graves in the desert.

I see the shootouts on I-10.

I see the drop houses, the forclosed houses with squatters in them, the illegals by the dozens.

 

[b']Separate the problems into what they really are![/b]

 

Close the border with a fence, wall, moat with alligators, landmines, barbed wire, machine guns, I don't care.

Wanna come in the country?

Do it legally at at port of entry.

 

I don't mind Latino 'visitors' as long as they sign the fxcking guest book when they come in and leave as promised.

 

The Leftists, Liberals, and even some of the Catholic Church here do everything they can to entice them across the border and hundreds die in the desert every year. Then it's OUR fault?

 

 

 

They've spent billions on 'securing' the border to demonstrate how much they've done.

"See how much money we've spent?" is not the same as "See what a difference our efforts make?"

We piss away hundreds of millions of dollars every year (just like the War on Drugs) while handicapping those doing the job to limit their true effectiveness.

 

Few in gov't will actually take the stand and FORCE the issue to make border crossings all but impossible.

Make it so hard that most will give up, then you're left with the hard core few. Arrest them, hold them on any charges you can think of involving violatating the soveriegn border of another nation, and when you know who they are put them to work buildng the Wall Of America for a token wage of say $1 a day.

If they're working for the Big Mean Scary Drug Lords and want to fight, kill every m@therfxcking one of them.

TAKE NO PRISONERS!

 

When Mexico decides they want them back, then FLY THEM, at the expense of their government, to their capitol city.

Let THEIR gov't deal with them from that point on.

 

Don't think that border can be closed?

You haven't given me a chance to do it, and I guarantee FEWER people will die from Mexico and Central America.

 

I'll give you an excellent example of a country that patrols its southern border with great effectiveness.

Mexico.

Try getting out of Guatemala by sneaking into Mexico, you'll encounter THEIR MILITARY.

Seems Mexico doesn't want the added burden of poor people from other nations violating THEIR border.

 

If the Federales don't kill you, then it's off to prison.

 

That's if you're lucky, because Mexicans roam the border looking for "undocumented migrants" who are carrying money and food. Get caught by those thugs, and your family will never hear from you again.

 

 

THE BORDER IS NOT THAT HARD TO FIX IF YOU HAVE A BRAIN OR SOME BALLS. Either one will work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now you wanna move on to a separate issue of drug, illegal workers and such?

Here's where it gets VERY simple.

Arrest them however you can, use tax charges like the gangsters faced in the 1920's if you have to.

Illegally in the country?

Seize all their assets, bank accounts, cars, houses just like any other criminal would face.

 

Kids born here in the States?

Send them home with their mothers, or fly them to Mexico City and let THEM place them in an orphanage.

American couples here could adopt them just like they normally do.

[FirstMeasure]

 

NO IT'S NOT!!!

 

We can secure EVERY border in the world except our own? Get the fxck outta here....

 

I spent 15 years in Texas' date=' going on 10 in Arizona.

I see the crime first hand. I see them pull bodies out of burned cars, out of shallow graves in the desert.

I see the shootouts on I-10.

I see the drop houses, the forclosed houses with squatters in them, the illegals by the dozens.

 

[b']Separate the problems into what they really are![/b]

 

Close the border with a fence, wall, moat with alligators, landmines, barbed wire, machine guns, I don't care.

Wanna come in the country?

Do it legally at at port of entry.

 

I don't mind Latino 'visitors' as long as they sign the fxcking guest book when they come in and leave as promised.

 

The Leftists, Liberals, and even some of the Catholic Church here do everything they can to entice them across the border and hundreds die in the desert every year. Then it's OUR fault?

 

 

 

They've spent billions on 'securing' the border to demonstrate how much they've done.

"See how much money we've spent?" is not the same as "See what a difference our efforts make?"

We piss away hundreds of millions of dollars every year (just like the War on Drugs) while handicapping those doing the job to limit their true effectiveness.

 

Few in gov't will actually take the stand and FORCE the issue to make border crossings all but impossible.

Make it so hard that most will give up, then you're left with the hard core few. Arrest them, hold them on any charges you can think of involving violatating the soveriegn border of another nation, and when you know who they are put them to work buildng the Wall Of America for a token wage of say $1 a day.

If they're working for the Big Mean Scary Drug Lords and want to fight, kill every m@therfxcking one of them.

TAKE NO PRISONERS!

 

When Mexico decides they want them back, then FLY THEM, at the expense of their government, to their capitol city.

Let THEIR gov't deal with them from that point on.

 

Don't think that border can be closed?

You haven't given me a chance to do it, and I guarantee FEWER people will die from Mexico and Central America.

 

I'll give you an excellent example of a country that patrols its southern border with great effectiveness.

Mexico.

Try getting out of Guatemala by sneaking into Mexico, you'll encounter THEIR MILITARY.

Seems Mexico doesn't want the added burden of poor people from other nations violating THEIR border.

 

If the Federales don't kill you, then it's off to prison.

 

That's if you're lucky, because Mexicans roam the border looking for "undocumented migrants" who are carrying money and food. Get caught by those thugs, and your family will never hear from you again.

 

 

THE BORDER IS NOT THAT HARD TO FIX IF YOU HAVE A BRAIN OR SOME BALLS. Either one will work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now you wanna move on to a separate issue of drug, illegal workers and such?

Here's where it gets VERY simple.

Arrest them however you can, use tax charges like the gangsters faced in the 1920's if you have to.

Illegally in the country?

Seize all their assets, bank accounts, cars, houses just like any other criminal would face.

 

Kids born here in the States?

Send them home with their mothers, or fly them to Mexico City and let THEM place them in an orphanage.

American couples here could adopt them just like they normally do.

You make some very good points, but one thing. We can secure anyones boarders, but we don't use fences to do it. A "Big Fence", also known as a Wall, didn't work in China, and it Dind't work in Berlin. It would cost more to maintain than it would to build and it wouldn't stop anyone form poking holes in it, landing on our coasts, or coming right over the roads with fake or even leagal temporary Visa's.

 

The "Fence" we need would be infrared survailance of the entire boarder by a few National Guard AWACS, and then deploy deterent squads to send them back. A bradley Vehicle with a loudspeaker and twin .50's in the turret would send drug cartel and Illeagal Aliens alike running back to Tampico.

[NeoConMan]

Didn't work in China?

You know this for a fact?

 

A wall WILL work.

Just try it for God's sake!!!

 

Skip all the high tech infrared baloney, that's EXACTLY what the Liberals want to use so it can be turned off for whatever reason and not used until some "bug" is fixed.

 

A wall does indeed stop people.

As for Berlin, I beg to differ with you. Aw hell, I'll just tell you you're dead fxcking wrong!

:-)

My Dad was in W Germany in 1954, I think he has a different opinion.

At the time, it was just wire fences for the most part - and VERY effective.

 

 

Here's a little test.

 

Take the walls and fences down from EVERY jail and prison in the United States.

 

I mean, if they don't work....

 

Then come talk to me about walls and fences.

Try hopping the wall around MY place and see what awaits you on the inside.

You'll never be the same.

 

 

 

I never said I wanted to stop the flow of workers.

I just want them to come in legally as the name "guest" worker would imply.

 

Just sign the fxcking guest book on the way in and leave as promised - the way a good "guest" would.

 

 

 

Those that get in anyway are a separate issue, deal with them as you find them.

Put 'em to work on the Wall Of America, hell, let 'em escape as long as they run south...

[FirstMeasure]

Walls work great in places like Prisons and NeoCon Compounds. But Not so well when they begin to get over the horizon. What do you suppose they'd have to monitor the Wall with? National Guard Troops with infrared survailance equipment. However, theyd have a wall in the way, so they couldn't engage the "Enemy" until it was on our side of it. With no wall in the way, they could engage them the before they reached the border.

 

The Mongolians invading China let me in on that China bit, BTW. And they now Patrol their borders with AWACS.

 

AWACS are Time tested Technology, and You Gave Me The Idea. You said "We can secure EVERY border in the world except our own?" Well, we don't do that with Walls, we do it with Boarder Troops and AWACS. And very effectively.

 

I'd like to see stricter Visa policy in place. How do you suppose the The Leader of one of the Wealthies Drug Cartels gets his hitmen in the country? Over the highway with a Guest Worker Visa. They don't put their shoes on thier head and start across the Rio Grande.

 

And I wasn't judging the Berlin Wall's Failure on it's to stop Migration from East to West. I was going by the Collapse of east Gemany in 1990. I don't think the Wall helped them one bit.

[Riffster]

You make good points firstmeasure. Actually given the stuff that goes on in Mexico and how it goes on I wonder why the US has not intervined. Its like Mexico does barely enough to keep the US at bay.

 

In reality the level of corruption that goes on in Mexico is incredibly high. The Federal Police was removed from the duties of drug enforcement due to the fact that the police has been infiltrated. They are using the army now, it worked for a while but now they say corruption is creeping in.

 

 

The problem is if you do not play the cartels will kill you. I really wish people did not generalize and realize that a lot of good Mexican policemen have died, assassinated by the cartels because they declared the war on drugs. These people do not get the recognition or title of hero like they would in the US had they done the same thing.

 

I would not call the cartels a guerrilla, guerrillas are poor, cartels are not.

 

By the way some drugs are made in Mexico but the vast majority come from South America. Mexico becomes a strategic stop for drug traffic because of its location. A lot of drug busts in Mexico are of planes that land ilicitly at night in secluded places and stuff like that. If the army gets a tip they will be ready waiting.

 

In my last last trip to Mexico I met a business man that told me he usually flew his own plane down to Mexico but he had been advised against it because he could be kidnapped or killed by the cartels to get his plane. He was not thrilled by having to fly commercially but he is making enough money in Mexico so there he was mingling with the regular folks...

[Californiaman]

CNN reported this morning that the drug cartels are now recruiting teenagers in the United States to act as hit men against other cartels and local law enforcement. Lets see a child born to Mexicans illegally in the United States, slips back and forth across the border to do the work of a drug cartel. Hmm.