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Speed or feeling?


smithy78

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Ditto one recording I once owned of Louis Armstrong doing "I'll be glad when you're dead' date=' you rascal, you."[/quote']

 

Was it, by any chance, the one with Louis Jordan and his Jumpin' 5 ???

 

But, surely, that song is meant to be tongue-in-cheek in any case?

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Ever listen to Fats Waller?

 

All the time.

 

True genius with a smile. That's how I'd like to end up my playing days - playing as if I'd had as much fun in life as Fats Waller seems to have done, judging by his playing.

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Pippy...

 

The version of "I'll be glad when you're dead" was quite early. Since my recording of it got burned up in a fire in the late 1960s <ARGH>, I don't recall the specifics, but I believe it was a pickup band in Chicago that wasn't very good and/or found themselves playing something too difficult too fast.

 

But yeah, it was kinda something tongue in cheek. ("I'll be ticked to death when you leave this earth, you dog.")

 

And I absolutely agree with your comment about Waller.

 

There are several reasons why I tease that I try to play keyboard on guitar; one is that job responsibilities have made playing with others kinda impossible for years. But another is that I feel as if I'm playing the "whole" piece. Maybe that's kinda arrogant in some ways, but... like my stuff or not, it's "my" stuff. I haven't always felt that way playing in various sorts of bands.

 

Funny thing is that a lot of "I'm doing it solo" is naturally akin to Waller's "stride." Big, reaching bass lines and runs, middle and high melody lines... You can hear it even in Chet Atkins, IMHO. In ways it's more due to the nature of guitar, but... hey, Stride was there too as something we all heard from the early days of radio

 

BTW, Fats always seemed happy, but even one who hasn't studied him a lot realizes that booze and "the road" took their toll before he hit 40. My understanding is that he was divorced and had biiiig alimony payments. Which, of course, makes overdoing the booze and traveling while putting on a big smile rather understandable.

 

Great musician, great entertainer.

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Thanks' date=' Ba$shole, for replying to my juvenile interjections.

 

I sort of understand now : You perhaps appreciate a more 'technically proficient' band to a band who play more 'from the heart' and why not?

 

In a similar way I, early on in my playing life, became fascinated by Steve Howe when he was in 'Yes'. Although he certainly does play with feeling it is perhaps not so dominating a force as it is with other players and his technique is certainly astonishingly proficient.

 

Thanks for taking my leg-pulling(s) in the light-hearted spirit in which they were conceived.

 

If you want me to write out, as a punishment, a list of 'Twenty Bass players who Changed the face of Popular Music forever' then just say the word![/quote']

 

And pippy I should have added this but Im shure that rush plays from the heart. Playing from the heart is very subjective. In a way a rappers way of expressing his style of music is through fast talking and swear words.

 

Its whatever you want to make it.

 

Shakesphere said something kinda like this "music is the food of a mans heart" or something like that.

 

But yea lay down that list I can kinda think of some people who might be on that list.

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Oddly enough the American "folk tradition" includes quite a bit that's intended functionally to have no "emotion" expressed whatsoever.

 

A lotta Bluegrass seems to reflect that too, perhaps from the Scots-Irish side of the tradition. I'll leave that up to ethnomusicologists with far more study than any of my own.

 

It's as though expressing sadness in a sad song would be "wrong" within that concept - and letting the tale tell itself as though without adding editorial comment. Some older bagpipe pieces are kinda that way 'cuz you can't get much of a dynamic from that particular instrument.

 

m

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Oddly enough the American "folk tradition" includes quite a bit that's intended functionally to have no "emotion" expressed whatsoever.

 

This is a strange concept to me. I just always thought people listened to music because they felt something from it, I guess the reason for that is beacuse that's why I listen to music. I mainly play and listen to blues or blues influenced music, that's where the feelings at in my opnion...

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Smithy... I know where you're coming from, for sure.

 

But remember that a lot of the pre-bluegrass "high and tight" (referring to the vocal qualities) style of early "country" string bands dates back to some of the earliest "American" folk traditions.

 

 

Thats a "later" Carter Family "Wildwood Flower" that's very "modernized" and "super-emotional" compared to stuff in the 20s-30s.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K41qsqhmvc&feature=related

 

There's no video to the above, but it handles the concept perhaps better. This is called Engine 143 - I originally learned a somewhat different version with roughly the same tune over 40 years ago as "The FFV"

 

Note there's a lyric telling a sad story, but it's told with far less emotion - almost deadpan - than one would expect even from telling the tale while sittin' around the potbellied stove in the country store a mile down the road.

 

Blues.... well, some of the older pickers - far, far older than I am - adopted essentially that same concept from the inevitable crossover musical concepts among genres long before radio, as far as I can tell. Or perhaps there was an earlier "African" similar tradition. I dunno.

 

In fact this next one - Jesse Fuller doing his San Francisco Bay Blues - reflects that. I found it interesting when I looked for this example that Clapton did it - and with a bit more vocal "stuff."

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKumuirtwbo&feature=related

 

(I did this one in late 65 or early 66 in college concert where "folk" meant pretty much Kingston Trio and "Peter Paul and Mary. It was obvious nobody had the slightest idea what the piece was. Sadly the one photo I had of it is long, long gone. Darn but I looked young!)

 

<grin>

 

m

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And pippy I should have added this but I'm sure that rush plays from the heart. Playing from the heart is very subjective. In a way a rappers way of expressing his style of music is through fast talking and swear words.

 

Yes I agree. I think whenever you can get an entire stadium of people jumping up and down to a song like it was a soccer game in Brazil' date=' you've got some kind of feeling. Check this out. If people can "feel" it then you've got feeling...

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Smithy... I know where you're coming from' date=' for sure.

 

But remember that a lot of the pre-bluegrass "high and tight" (referring to the vocal qualities) style of early "country" string bands dates back to some of the earliest "American" folk traditions.

 

 

Thats a "later" Carter Family "Wildwood Flower" that's very "modernized" and "super-emotional" compared to stuff in the 20s-30s.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K41qsqhmvc&feature=related

 

There's no video to the above, but it handles the concept perhaps better. This is called Engine 143 - I originally learned a somewhat different version with roughly the same tune over 40 years ago as "The FFV"

 

Note there's a lyric telling a sad story, but it's told with far less emotion - almost deadpan - than one would expect even from telling the tale while sittin' around the potbellied stove in the country store a mile down the road.

 

Blues.... well, some of the older pickers - far, far older than I am - adopted essentially that same concept from the inevitable crossover musical concepts among genres long before radio, as far as I can tell. Or perhaps there was an earlier "African" similar tradition. I dunno.

 

In fact this next one - Jesse Fuller doing his San Francisco Bay Blues - reflects that. I found it interesting when I looked for this example that Clapton did it - and with a bit more vocal "stuff."

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKumuirtwbo&feature=related

 

(I did this one in late 65 or early 66 in college concert where "folk" meant pretty much Kingston Trio and "Peter Paul and Mary. It was obvious nobody had the slightest idea what the piece was. Sadly the one photo I had of it is long, long gone. Darn but I looked young!)

 

<grin>

 

m[/quote']

 

 

Very interesting information and videos... Thanks for posting!

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Yeah but aren't bass players just "wanna be" guitarest but couldn't handle or understand 6 strings?

I'm sure your kidding, but Tal Wilkenfeld, Billy Sheehan, John Paul Jones, and even Duff McCagen can handle a Six String with ease.

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.... I used to think bass players were kinda "guitar player wannabees" too until for a year or so my wife decided she wanted to "join the band." A kid I knew was a pretty good drummer and we were trying to figure how to get a third piece going for a country rock kinda set of gigs.

 

Well, she said, "I love hearing bass. I hear that more than the guitar."

 

Say what?

 

Yup. So I got her a short scale jobbie since she has tiny hands. Nope. Not good enough. So I got her a Precision and an old Fender Bassman (this was late 1970s) and taught her enough to get by quickly.

 

She doesn't realize even today that she could have been a pretty decent bass player. Ended up not practicing after we moved far, far away from the gig and then sold the setup to a friend. I don't think she ever though of herself as a musician. Still doesn't. Maybe that's good, maybe not. Whatever.

 

Bottom line, I guess, is musically the bottom line. She "heard" the bass. Me, I'm decent on the bass in some ways, but I tend to think more in terms of runs and stuff (like some of the Byrds "country" stuff when Parsons was part of 'em) that probably's too complicated for some music. And as a guitar player, I have a horrid habit of getting too speedy since the bass more than anything adds the "bottom" musically and is a major contributor to rhythm and timing.

 

So... No, I've concluded that some people just are bass players. They think like bass players so they are, even if they are using some other instrument or aren't players at all...

 

That's kinda like I tease that I'm really a keyboard player who uses a guitar instead. Not true, but... sometimes... Gee, I wish I had the Leslie again so I could sound like a B3 Hammond... <grin>

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It would be pretty tough to play bass for the likes of Hendrix...

 

Funny you should say that; Noel Redding was a six string guy who thought, when he went to an audition organised by Chas Chandler (bassist with The Animals), he was auditioning for the guitar spot in Chandler's band. When told they were on the lookout for a really good guitarist to play bass Redding was furious and declared he wouldnt play bass for anyone and could he challenge 'their' guitarist to a face-off. Hendrix picked up his guitar..............

 

True story.

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Good point. Yeah I know, read several books on Hendrix. Redding was always sour about it too, and eventually they fell out. He got a one off payement back in the day so he doesn't make any money of the record sales now... Was his own fault...

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.... I used to think bass players were kinda "guitar player wannabees" too until for a year or so my wife decided she wanted to "join the band." A kid I knew was a pretty good drummer and we were trying to figure how to get a third piece going for a country rock kinda set of gigs.

 

Well' date=' she said, "I love hearing bass. I hear that more than the guitar."[/quote']

 

That's my brother as well. When we were kids, I wanted to play guitar and he wanted to play bass - not guitar, bass - and he smokes. He mainly uses a Fender 5 string Jazz and some sort of 6 string Peavey. He and I have a band together and he also pulls duty as lead singer, which is a good thing because it keeps him from overplaying out of boredom. :-&

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Alright. I've wanted to say this forever. Speed is a function of practice. Anyone can practice. The ability to express feeling is a function of how well developed one's character and expression is. Not everyone has highly developed character or highly developed expressive ability. True, it's oh so Politically Correct to say "Oh everyone has feeling", it's an individual thing, but I think that's BS. And to answer the person who said this:

 

"I think saying that guys like Vai, Van Halen and etc. have no feeling shows a serious inability of being able to appreciate their musical styles and would argue that at least some of those players probably have a deeper feeling and understanding of music than a lot of us will ever be able to even recognize."

 

--Yes, they have SOMETHING, but it isn't exactly feeling, it's incredible discipline. While admirable, that isn't the same as feeling. The only "feeling" I get from those guys is one of great respect for what practice can do, and the "feeling" of "overwhelm". By overwhelm I mean 'the way you'd feel if you had a billion gallons of tomato soup poured over your head over and over and over and over. I enjoy these guys a LOT for two songs, and then it's (yes, I'm going to say it) "all the same".

 

The guy I just quoted also said this:

"I believe a lot of what people perceive as "feeling" is really "less precision;"

 

--Bravo! That's exactly what feeling is, but apparently (though not for sure) YOU are the one who simply doesn't understand. When you tell your girlfriend or mother that you love them, do you write it out, rehearse it until you can say it with 'precision', or do you just say it how you feel it, even if you trip over a word? And you better hope that this is one time that you really ARE expressing feeling. Feeling isn't EXACTLY "less precision" though, it's actually "less agenda". And feeling is based on sincerity, not insincerity (which in a very real way is a natural concomittant of 'agenda')

 

I hate to say this, but I suspect that there IS an unavoidable separation between VERY fast playing and feeling. One guy here said that just because it's fast doesn't necessarily mean that it has no feeling. With all due respect to him, I'm not sure that's quite true. Oh, a two-second flurry of high speed can denote the feeling of "hurry", "flurry", "quick", "intelligent", any number of good things that are part of expressing feeling. But extended super-fast playing or flurries that occur too often start saying less and less of varied things and more and more of the single "feeling" of "intensity, intensity, intensity, intensity, intensity, intensity", and that's not what I'd call expressing feeling. It becomes more of expressing monotony. Mind you, extended fast PLAYING is admirable, but that doesn't mean that it has feeling.

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Alright. I've wanted to say this forever. Speed is a function of practice. Anyone can practice. The ability to express feeling is a function of how well developed one's character and expression is. Not everyone has highly developed character or highly developed expressive ability. True' date=' it's oh so Politically Correct to say "Oh everyone has feeling", it's an individual thing, but I think that's BS. And to answer the person who said this:

 

"I think saying that guys like Vai, Van Halen and etc. have no feeling shows a serious inability of being able to appreciate their musical styles and would argue that at least some of those players probably have a deeper feeling and understanding of music than a lot of us will ever be able to even recognize."

 

--Yes, they have SOMETHING, but it isn't exactly feeling, it's incredible discipline. While admirable, that isn't the same as feeling. The only "feeling" I get from those guys is one of great respect for what practice can do, and the "feeling" of "overwhelm". By overwhelm I mean 'the way you'd feel if you had a billion gallons of tomato soup poured over your head over and over and over and over. I enjoy these guys a LOT for two songs, and then it's (yes, I'm going to say it) "all the same".

 

The guy I just quoted also said this:

"I believe a lot of what people perceive as "feeling" is really "less precision;"

 

--Bravo! That's exactly what feeling is, but apparently (though not for sure) YOU are the one who simply doesn't understand. When you tell your girlfriend or mother that you love them, do you write it out, rehearse it until you can say it with 'precision', or do you just say it how you feel it, even if you trip over a word? And you better hope that this is one time that you really ARE expressing feeling. Feeling isn't EXACTLY "less precision" though, it's actually "less agenda". And feeling is based on sincerity, not insincerity (which in a very real way is a natural concomittant of 'agenda')

 

I hate to say this, but I suspect that there IS an unavoidable separation between VERY fast playing and feeling. One guy here said that just because it's fast doesn't necessarily mean that it has no feeling. With all due respect to him, I'm not sure that's quite true. Oh, a two-second flurry of high speed can denote the feeling of "hurry", "flurry", "quick", "intelligent", any number of good things that are part of expressing feeling. But extended super-fast playing or flurries that occur too often start saying less and less of varied things and more and more of the single "feeling" of "intensity, intensity, intensity, intensity, intensity, intensity", and that's not what I'd call expressing feeling. It becomes more of expressing monotony. Mind you, extended fast PLAYING is admirable, but that doesn't mean that it has feeling.

 

[/quote']

 

What the world needs is another newbie needing to vent [-o<

 

You sound as though you have never been married - once you're married for a while you may change your views about rehearsing what you say so you don't end up in the dog house.

 

As was stated in other posts, sometimes the feeling is revealed within the composition be it fast or slow. It is reflected within a point - counter point or syncopated rhythm. Also, not everone is the same; we don't all show feeling in the same way.

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I would like to reply to djroge1 who about 5 posts or so back, said this on March 16:

 

"For some people, playing fast is how they relate what they are feeling - Let's face it some people just "think" and do things quicker than others. It's unfair to say that playing fast equals no feeling."

 

--DJ, I've thought about this many years- as a matter of fact, almost since college and high school, where it was an unchallenged assumption that 'good on guitar' meant 'fast on guitar'.

 

What you said is incisive, especially about 'some people just think faster'. Point taken, because that's true. It's true however, of the PLAYER, in your assertion. It may not be so true of the listener. And isn't it the point of view of the listener that is making the call on the feeling?

 

Have you ever heard a speed talker? Well, imagine someone who could talk 5 times faster than THAT, yet. It may be true that he's feeling something while he's talking to you, but what the hell is he saying? And feeling means "what the guy's saying" so to speak, doesn't it?

 

I mean, some guys say "I know what Clapton is sayin', man"- when they mean 'Clapton has feeling'. If a guy talks or plays too fast and I can't tell what he's saying, isn't that the OPPOSITE of feeling? He may have some feeling inside which is causing him to communicate in a way that can't really be understood (keep imagining the fast talker), but can we really use the word 'feeling' (in it's normal, healthy sense anyway) to describe what he's doing or expressing?

 

Does that make any sense?

 

Now I'm not taking anything away from Satriani, Vai, etc. They are HUGELY, HUGELY talented. And isn't one of their greatest abilities the ability to discipline themselves to practice?

 

But after I've picked my tongue up off the ground after two songs of watching the incredible things they can do on guitar, I realize that those two songs were enough, because all they seem to be SAYING to me is, "I'm fast, I'm technically brilliant, I'm fast, I'm technically brilliant, I'm fast, I'm technically brilliant". --And yes, they ARE fast and technically brilliant!!! -- But that's not an interesting message for more than 9 minutes. -At least to me it isn't.

 

Listening to some guys however, I find myself thinking of how great the universe is, or how much love mankind does or should or could have for each other. Or how I could accomplish anything I wanted if I try. To me, THAT'S what feeling in music delivers. If it doesn't deliver that, then it is probably true that the good that the music contains isn't 'feeling' but rather something else. -perhaps great technical brilliance

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What do you think is more important in a guitarist? I think feeling is more important as slow guitaring with feeling is better than fast playing with no feeling in my opinion. Although a good balance is needed to be a great player.

 

I tend to like leads with slower expression but can be impressed with speedy chops. I get bored pretty quickly with mindless scale shredding.

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