bobouz Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 4 hours ago, Sgt. Pepper said: Not sure what grain I have. They look really close. Can someone explain the difference to me how tight is tight and how wide is wide? Grain lines on instruments can be so tight as to barely be distinguishable, or can run up to something in the neighborhood of 3/16” wide. Common luthier wisdom says that optimally, tight grain lines should be skewed towards the center seam of the top. Of course, guitar rules are made to be broken. Some of the best older Martins I’ve played have been just the opposite, with wider grain at the center seam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Pepper Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, bobouz said: Grain lines on instruments can be so tight as to barely be distinguishable, or can run up to something in the neighborhood of 3/16” wide. Common luthier wisdom says that optimally, tight grain lines should be skewed towards the center seam of the top. Of course, guitar rules are made to be broken. Some of the best older Martins I’ve played have been just the opposite, with wider grain at the center seam. The grain on my 000 seems uniform across the whole top, my D-41 is tighter at the center and wider at the edges and the 12er, J12-16GT is tighter at the center and wider at the edged and the D-15M is at another house. That is all I got and I ain't got no more. I strum them they sound good, I finger pick them they sound good. Like I said I think we as guitarist tend to over analyze stuff to the n'th degree. Edited February 1, 2020 by Sgt. Pepper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 3 hours ago, Sgt. Pepper said: The grain on my 000 seems uniform across the whole top, my D-41 is tighter at the center and wider at the edges and the 12er, J12-16GT is tighter at the center and wider at the edged and the D-15M is at another house. That is all I got and I ain't got no more. I strum them they sound good, I finger pick them they sound good. Like I said I think we as guitarist tend to over analyze stuff to the n'th degree. Only Martins...? - I would have thought you'd at least have had a J-45 ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted February 2, 2020 Author Share Posted February 2, 2020 3 hours ago, Sgt. Pepper said: The grain on my 000 seems uniform across the whole top, my D-41 is tighter at the center and wider at the edges and the 12er, J12-16GT is tighter at the center and wider at the edged and the D-15M is at another house. That is all I got and I ain't got no more. I strum them they sound good, I finger pick them they sound good. Like I said I think we as guitarist tend to over analyze stuff to the n'th degree. Read a post on some Forum where a luthier said he didn't relate to grain because experience had taught him there is no overall pattern to figure'n'follow. He did the tap-dance however and always let his fingertips cross the floor. Another mystery there, , , tap tada tatap tap tap, , , "aaaahhh yes ! this will make a sublime guitar. . " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 22 minutes ago, E-minor7 said: Read a post on some Forum where a luthier said he didn't relate to grain because experience had taught him there is no overall pattern to figure'n'follow. He did the tap-dance however and always let his fingertips cross the floor. Another mystery there, , , tap tada tatap tap tap, , , "aaaahhh yes ! this will make a sublime guitar. . " Look up Youtube and George Lowden’s fantastic videos about wood choice and he taps each type! Funny, it under ‘Lowden Guitars’ BluesKing777. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Pepper Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 (edited) 13 hours ago, fortyearspickn said: Only Martins...? - I would have thought you'd at least have had a J-45 ! I tried to get a Dove last week, but the deal fell through. The guy wanted to trade and wanted me to mail him the 2 guitars I was going to trade and not mail his till after he inspected them and approved. He tried to set my mind at ease and tell me he had a reputable shop. And I'm hung like a porn star. I even went to the mirror in the bathroom to look and stupid was not written on my forehead anywhere. Every time I play a J-45 I can understand what all the fuss is about. I will say one thing Martin they have no business finishing tops on guitars, they look awful. Gibson kills them in that department. I love Doves and HBirds. One day I'll get one. Or Both. Edited February 2, 2020 by Sgt. Pepper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly campbell Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 Ok I have to admit I dont know what the majority of mine are but I will look. Question for those above who said they prefer wide grain. Do you not even pick up a guitar if it is not wide grained or do you try all guitars. I ask because I never pay attention to the grain really. I pick one up if it sounds good and sonds good then I get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 4 hours ago, kelly campbell said: Question for those above who said they prefer wide grain. Do you not even pick up a guitar if it is not wide grained or do you try all guitars. I ask because I never pay attention to the grain really. Aesthetically, I prefer the look of wider grain & as I alluded to above, some of the best guitars I've played happened to have had wider grain patterns - But that does not impact my choice of guitars. If I'm lucky enough to find more than one example of a particular model under consideration, the choice will be based on tone and playability factors. If that instrument then happens to have any visual cues I prefer, it's just a bonus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 1 hour ago, bobouz said: Aesthetically, I prefer the look of wider grain & as I alluded to above, some of the best guitars I've played happened to have had wider grain patterns - But that does not impact my choice of guitars. If I'm lucky enough to find more than one example of a particular model under consideration, the choice will be based on tone and playability factors. If that instrument then happens to have any visual cues I prefer, it's just a bonus. Some of the best guitars I have owned had tops which look like they scrounged through the scrap pile for whatever useable piece of wood they could find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted February 4, 2020 Author Share Posted February 4, 2020 Something indicates that no-rules-or-consensus regarding W/T is the new black. Collective conscience has found out that it's a bit absurd to focus on the top-grain-nature. Not so with bone nuts, saddles or of course braces. Pins, , ? , , , oh no, that's another thread. Have to say 2 of my very good sounding guitars have hyper-tight, almost invisible grain. Especially the re-topped/necked 1966 Country Western. It's like gazing on peanut-butter. Then again the wides sound fantastic too. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) When I ordered my deep body 00 custom from my local luthier - many of you have seen it here in these pages, the promise was it would become Gabon Ebony back and sides, Honduran Mahogany 5 piece neck with Rosewood inserts, Ebony fretboard, bridge, faceplate and tuner buttons (Schaller M6 Tuners) and the top was to be the fine Italian 'Moonspruce'........same as used in famous old violins/viola. So when I asked where the Moonspruce came from, quite a story it was! The luthier's father had procured enough for one guitar top after travelling to the Italian Alps in 1946 for the secret Moonspruce Harvest during a Solstice coinciding with a Full Moon. (There was a similar solstice/full moon in 2016 but the wood would be too green for a guitar). He had to pass a small test before he could go on - complete a full acoustic guitar to demonstrate his ability and that the Moonspruce would not be wasted. He returned home with his one piece of Moonspruce mumbling to his family about (Guitar) fairies and elven workers........... So the superfine grain on my guitar looks like there is ....no grain. It had 2 big stains and pen marks on it from the years between and I had it re-painted gloss black last year. It sounds even better! I mention this because the guitar companies don't use this kind of wood unless they have a Custom Shop top of the line thing going on. And some run-of-the-mill guitars the tops are cut without anyone even looking at them. BluesKing777. Cargill Custom guitars Raptor deep body 00 : Edited February 4, 2020 by BluesKing777 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted February 4, 2020 Author Share Posted February 4, 2020 3 hours ago, BluesKing777 said: Cargill Custom guitars Raptor deep body 00 : ^Talking about new black. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Pepper Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 4 hours ago, BluesKing777 said: When I ordered my deep body 00 custom from my local luthier - many of you have seen it here in these pages, the promise was it would become Gabon Ebony back and sides, Honduran Mahogany 5 piece neck with Rosewood inserts, Ebony fretboard, bridge, faceplate and tuner buttons (Schaller M6 Tuners) and the top was to be the fine Italian 'Moonspruce'........same as used in famous old violins/viola. So when I asked where the Moonspruce came from, quite a story it was! The luthier's father had procured enough for one guitar top after travelling to the Italian Alps in 1946 for the secret Moonspruce Harvest during a Solstice coinciding with a Full Moon. (There was a similar solstice/full moon in 2016 but the wood would be too green for a guitar). He had to pass a small test before he could go on - complete a full acoustic guitar to demonstrate his ability and that the Moonspruce would not be wasted. He returned home with his one piece of Moonspruce mumbling to his family about (Guitar) fairies and elven workers........... So the superfine grain on my guitar looks like there is ....no grain. It had 2 big stains and pen marks on it from the years between and I had it re-painted gloss black last year. It sounds even better! I mention this because the guitar companies don't use this kind of wood unless they have a Custom Shop top of the line thing going on. And some run-of-the-mill guitars the tops are cut without anyone even looking at them. BluesKing777. Cargill Custom guitars Raptor deep body 00 : That if f-ing bad @ss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Sgt. Pepper said: That if f-ing bad @ss. Could be, you know.....real bad.......it was on the music stand while I was doing something else and out of the corner of my eye I saw........something move! It may have been an eye........😫 And a raven was cawing on the back fence... BluesKing777. Edited February 4, 2020 by BluesKing777 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 5 hours ago, BluesKing777 said: So the superfine grain on my guitar looks like there is ....no grain. That sounds similar to the grain on my 2006 LG-1 (with LG-2 bracing). It's from a custom run of 20 instruments. Interestingly, a few days ago I was listening to Part 2 of the interviews Ren did with Tony P. after he'd left Gibson, and at the twelve minute mark, he mentions working specifically on these LG-1s himself (shaping braces), which I thought was very cool. The grain lines are so tight on this particular guitar that they're almost impossible to make out through the sunburst finish. By looking at the top through the soundhole with an inspection mirror, you can more readily see them, but it's still not easy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raul Rehlmann Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 The paint is very thick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 4 hours ago, BluesKing777 said: Could be, you know.....real bad.......it was on the music stand while I was doing something else and out of the corner of my eye I saw........something move! It may have been an eye........😫 And a raven was cawing on the back fence... BluesKing777. I want some of whatever you're smoking. Actually, maybe not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Pepper Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, j45nick said: I want some of whatever you're smoking. Actually, maybe not. Come on over I will share. PM me when your gonna be in the Hampton Roads area of Virginia. Edited February 4, 2020 by Sgt. Pepper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 333 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) On 2/2/2020 at 10:01 PM, kelly campbell said: Ok I have to admit I dont know what the majority of mine are but I will look. Question for those above who said they prefer wide grain. Do you not even pick up a guitar if it is not wide grained or do you try all guitars. I ask because I never pay attention to the grain really. I pick one up if it sounds good and sonds good then I get it. I have acoustics with both. Eleven are Gibsons. Of those, my favorites have wide-grained Adirondack tops. Not that those with tight grained Sitka do not sound good. It's just that those with Adirondack tops happen to have something "extra" that appeals to me. My answer is more about a preference for Adirondack over Sitka, I guess. Wide grain to me = Adirondack. That is why I say, based on that experience, that if I had to make a choice between two guitars without the benefit of hearing or playing them, I'd bet on the one with wider grain (Adi) top. But again, this is not meant to say there are not terrific (and poor) sounding guitars with either. Red 333 Edited February 4, 2020 by Red 333 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbpark Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Visually, I prefer the one that sounds better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, j45nick said: I want some of whatever you're smoking. Actually, maybe not. I'm not smoking or drinking anything, Nick, just inhaling backwash from the old Dell computer cooling fan? I was just having some fun putting up the photo of and talking about my black Cargill (with the reflections of the sky through my veranda roof). Another photo of it is a bit scary - it looks like 3 ravens sitting on a telephone line.... But I was talking about the Cargill because that is the only guitar I have or have played with nice top wood, except for the other unmentionable (local) 😠 production guitar with top of the line wood including the only known Triple A Sitka top I have. Certain people tend to froth at the mouth with mention of that one....😆 The other guitars with incredible wood and workmanship (and sound!) I own are Lowdens...WOW! But sorry, I bought the Gibbies I have for the sound and playability and the tops are...a disparate lot, to say the least. I could almost say that when the guitars were being made, nobody was looking? Grain runout, mismatched tops, non pretty top - yep, everything they had they sold! But the 2005 Dove is in the running for on of the nicest, unusual sounding guitars I have, especially since I put the Mediums on last week! (Elixir PB 13s)... Oh yeah...I would still be playing L-00s and that ilk if not for the fateful day a number of years back when I traded a number of bottom feeder acoustics and an electronic box for an incredible Lowden S35 at the pawn shop! Nobody wanted it because it had Tommy and Phil Emmanuel's signatures written on the top. But what a sensational playing and sounding guitar!!! The wood is Tasmanian Blackwood over Cedar and this led me to buy my first Maton - a budget model with the same (on paper) timber. And playing these different woods led me to order the Cargill (Ebony/Italian spruce) and other Lowdens and even the cherry red Dove would not have been even looked at (Flame Maple/Sitka)......but again, someone had written all over the top! Made for me, wasn't it? - mine! Keep those textas going people. Oh yeah, this has all lead me to believe that I like early to mid 2000s Gibsons......preferable with writing on the top.😁 BluesKing777. Edited February 4, 2020 by BluesKing777 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbiii Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Both or neither. I have over 100 vintage gibsons and martins and a bunch of other stuff too. I always buy for tone. I have found no correlation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 12 hours ago, tpbiii said: Both or neither. I have over 100 vintage gibsons and martins and a bunch of other stuff too. I always buy for tone. I have found no correlation. And there you have it. Game, Set, Match ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorrisrownSal Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) My two Gibsons. Just curious. Wide or tight? Edited February 5, 2020 by Salfromchatham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Pepper Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 The J-45 looks like tight in the center to wider towards the outside. Not sure if the second one is a J-15 but it looks wider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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