Another “Historic” gone wrong

[BluesKing777]

On 4/24/2020 at 12:21 AM, j45nick said:

The irony is that if Gibson wants to do "historic" re-issues of any of its guitars, we have plenty of forum members who have original versions of those guitars, and play them every day.

It reminds me of when they were going to do historic re-issues of some of JT's  Kalamazoo Gals guitars, and how that project got caught up in internal wranglings.

Accurate "historic" information is right here, and freely available in the form of playable artifacts. It's not locked away in a vault or sitting in a closet somewhere (like many of the shipping ledgers may be).

 

Bringing this up again.... I was playing 2 guitars this morning where Martin had gone to extreme and probably ridiculous lengths for accuracy!

I have 2 very different Martins that have very different concepts - one is my Martin OM18 Authentic where for all intents and purposes, the guitar is exactly like the 1933 model they copied. There was disagreement on forums because it has a torrefied Adi top and the original had brand new Adi top! The new one has a VTS Martin finish to try and copy the 1933, which just had whatever finish they were using on the day. It also has my preferred spacings for fingerpicking - 1 3/4” ebony nut and 2 3/8” bridge spacing. And a fat V neck! And did I say it sounds absolutely superb? And...they don’t make them anymore....dropped for something newer and shinier.

The other Martin I played is my D18 with onboard Aura F1+ system - they went to extraordinary trouble to make a guitar with 1 3/4” nut and the ‘general ballpark’ specs of a 1938 Martin D18 they used to base the new guitar on......except for this one, they recorded the Aura images in a top Nashville setup using the museum 1938 D18 using 9 of the famous mics of that ere! So when plugged in I get a little bit of the 1938 DNA come through my amp! Except this morning when I picked the guitar out of the case, it had jumped through the next stage of the ‘opening up’ hoop and ....Wow! But you know, a D18 great for fingerpicking is not what they were made for until this model re-created a bit of the 1938! And....they also don’t make this one anymore!

So come on Gibson, I want an exact copy of a Banner LG2 and J45  and 33 L-00 with fat nuts and V necks!

P.S. I checked Reverb.com (again) and the Banner J45s are getting up near $15K, while the LG2 Banners and L-00s are way better value. But some have more splits than Swan Lake! That is why we want new ones with correct specs for....$4,299 .😧

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by BluesKing777

[J45fan]

4 hours ago, BluesKing777 said:

 

 

So come on Gibson, I want an exact copy of a Banner LG2 and J45  and 33 L-00 with fat nuts and V necks!

BluesKing777.

 

 

 

 

I don't know what you mean by "fat nuts",

The J-45 & L-00 Legends were built like the Martin Authentic series. The same is true for the two ltd edition from 2013 the '34 OJ and  '35 AJ. The OJ and AJ were copied from Burnette's guitars, the L-00 belonged to Parnell and the J-45 they copied belonged to E. Whitford.  Same as Martin did, they used one particular guitar to copy. A friend of mine owns a vintage 1933 OM-18 and the Authentic version is different from the feel. They were handmade and vary, Gibson was even worse nothing seems impossible with vintage Gibsons.

You wrote you want an exact copy of a LG2, J45 and L-00. Which one exact?

I have a 1933 L-1 it is very different than other L-1's from 1933. Mine has an elevated fingerboard, which is very rare. 

 

[BluesKing777]

 

Sorry, you and others are getting confused my Gibson marketing names. This is now and that was then....

We are talking about wrong amount of frets and binding on the new version called a Banner Southern Jumbo and the specs on Gibson’s site above for the Historics etc announced at this year’s NAMM (2020).......the ‘Banner LG2’ has a 1.69” nut, the ‘Banner J45’ has a nut of 1.72 and the ‘Original L-00’ has a nut width of 1.72”.

I already have a Blues King L-00 with a 1.72” nut and skinny neck, no need to get another. I want a new reissue of the mid 30s L-00 with a V neck. I have a real 1937 L-0 but someone shaved the V off.

BluesKing777.

 

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by BluesKing777

[uncle fester]

7 hours ago, BluesKing777 said:

 

So come on Gibson, I want an exact copy of a Banner LG2 and J45  and 33 L-00 with fat nuts and V necks!

BluesKing777.

 

I agree with you BK, you would think it would be an option.  Out of curiosity, could you get one to these specs out of the custom shop, and what would that run - any ideas?

[Dave F]

3 hours ago, uncle fester said:

 

I agree with you BK, you would think it would be an option.  Out of curiosity, could you get one to these specs out of the custom shop, and what would that run - any ideas?

Once they're back up and running, I wouldn't think it would be too difficult. As Nick mentioned, they nailed it with the early Legend series. I have a J-45 Legend and preferred it over the vintage '42 I had. I also have a 1932 L00 RI which seems to be the same as a Legend without the VOS. Another good reissue was the LG2 reissue of of JT's Banner LG1. They nailed it. Beefy neck and everything looks correct.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124165305692

 

 

 

[michaelsegui]

Except the orange label with the modern Gibson logo and the pickguard should be under the finish.   Other than that, it’s a great version 

[Dave F]

3 hours ago, michaelsegui said:

Except the orange label with the modern Gibson logo and the pickguard should be under the finish.   Other than that, it’s a great version 

I can live with those two variances and actually like them.  I could do without the Custom Shop decal on back of the headstock.

[BluesKing777]

 

But I can say it again....they are nothing to do with the "Historic Collection" announced  at NAMM 2020.

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

[Dave F]

1 hour ago, BluesKing777 said:

 

But I can say it again....they are nothing to do with the "Historic Collection" announced  at NAMM 2020.

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

You will have to give us some kind of notice or rules to follow when the conversation should be limited to your interest. We do tend to drift off in different directions and have been known to hijack threads.

[BluesKing777]

 

Sorry Dave, I didn't start the thread - JCV started it with mention of the wrong amount of frets on the SoJo Historic, and combining that with the specs on the webpage for the new 'Historic' models showing basically the same specs as the old models, well you know, my Bullshite Detector went to Full Alert as I realized there are possibly no new models, just the old ones with 1.72" nuts with different paint and possibly different tuning machines.....

The 2 shops that claim to be Gibson Acoustic dealers here are still flogging the models from 2017 and the chances of seeing the higher end models here are always slim. There was an LG2 American Eagle for sale in Sydney but your JT model LG1 never made it here, neither did the L-00 Legend, or I can say they would probably be living at my house! The 'Gibson Dealer' only orders what they think they will sell - Standard model J45s and Standard Hummingbirds. A poor sad little L-00 Standard has sat there for sale since 2017 - not a big hit. But that is really a 'Blues King' with a new 2017 name, isn't it? As I mentioned above, we can no longer order direct from the US and must order through a local Gibson Dealer. And so the circle closes...

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

Edited April 27, 2020 by BluesKing777

[Brucebubs]

16 minutes ago, BluesKing777 said:

 

Sorry Dave, I didn't start the thread - JCV started it with mention of the wrong amount of frets on the SoJo Historic, and combining that with the specs on the webpage for the new 'Historic' models showing basically the same specs as the old models, well you know, my Bullshite Detector went to Full Alert as I realized there are possibly no new models, just the old ones with 1.72" nuts with different paint and possibly different tuning machines.....

The 2 shops that claim to be Gibson Acoustic dealers here are still flogging the models from 2017 and the chances of seeing the higher end models here are always slim. There was an LG2 American Eagle for sale in Sydney but your JT model LG1 never made it here, neither did the L-00 Legend, or I can say they would probably be living at my house! The 'Gibson Dealer' only orders what they think they will sell - Standard model J45s and Standard Hummingbirds. A poor sad little L-00 Standard has sat there for sale since 2017 - not a big hit. But that is really a 'Blues King' with a new 2017 name, isn't it? As I mentioned above, we can no longer order direct from the US and must order through a local Gibson Dealer. And so the circle closes...

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

 

When I first saw the new 2020 Historic Series 1957 SJ-200 I started asking dealers here in Australia for price and availability - they knew nothing about it .. or anything about of the series.

I contacted the Australian distributor for Gibson guitars directly.

They knew nothing about the new series but to their credit they did their homework and got back to me with a price (huge) and gave me the OK to order through any Gibson dealer.

So I did on Feb 6th - ETA back then was 4 to 6 months, possibly longer.

A lot has happened since then so I'm not sure when I'll see it now.

[BluesKing777]

1 hour ago, Brucebubs said:

 

When I first saw the new 2020 Historic Series 1957 SJ-200 I started asking dealers here in Australia for price and availability - they knew nothing about it .. or anything about of the series.

I contacted the Australian distributor for Gibson guitars directly.

They knew nothing about the new series but to their credit they did their homework and got back to me with a price (huge) and gave me the OK to order through any Gibson dealer.

So I did on Feb 6th - ETA back then was 4 to 6 months, possibly longer.

A lot has happened since then so I'm not sure when I'll see it now.

 

Well, you know it was your guitar order that had me looking at the specs sheet to see what is different in your 'Custom Shop '57 SJ200', and looking at Gibson spec sheets is a fool's errand at the best of time.....but your model's specs, typed in the list above the forum here, says it has 1.72" nut and real 50s Gibson SJ200s had 1 11/16" nuts. No idea of the amount of frets.

So what is different in the model you ordered and that used SJ200 True Vintage I gave you the link to in Port Melbourne (sold by the way)?

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

Edited April 27, 2020 by BluesKing777

[Brucebubs]

39 minutes ago, BluesKing777 said:

 

Well, you know it was your guitar order that had me looking at the specs sheet to see what is different in your 'Custom Shop '57 SJ200', and looking at Gibson spec sheets is a fool's errand at the best of time.....but your model's specs, typed in the list above the forum here, says it has 1.72" nut and real 50s Gibson SJ200s had 1 11/16" nuts. No idea of the amount of frets.

So what is different in the model you ordered and that used SJ200 True Vintage I gave you the link to in Port Melbourne (sold by the way)?

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

 

I think the 'thermally aged' Sitka Spruce top, hide glue and ultra thin finish are different. There was a fantastic 1957 SJ-200 released in 2016 that was very similar to this 2020 version but it had an 'aged' Adirondack top ... and I couldn't get one here! That's one of the reasons I went straight to the distributor. That Port Melbourne guitar was really nice but I already had over $2K put down as a deposit. I'm going to allow 12 months for delivery given what's happening around the world, does that sound fair?

 

p.s. I see the nut size is listed as 43.81 mm which converts to 1 23/32" which makes it 1/32" bigger than the real 50's 1 11/16" - So close it makes you wonder why they don't just shave off 1/32" for the sake of authenticity - anyway, I'm fine with it!

Edited April 27, 2020 by Brucebubs

[BluesKing777]

 

 

As Slim said earlier - 1.72" nut is still the "Ren F' neck, not a 50s Gibson neck...

Is your distributor the one starting with Au? Don't tell us the name. 

I was talking about this somewhere else, I have no idea how they distribute or organise anything but all I can say is that as an example, Taylor has started making the new models before they advertise, I think. Last year my new Taylor 717e Builder's Edition was in the shop near me about 1 1/2 months after it was announced at NAMM 2019 - they are listed as having their own Australian distributorship, some of the new Martins were here about 3 months later - the more mid range, customs and a couple of the new MDs. So they are 'on it'. Gibson didn't go to NAMM 2019, so nothing new last year to order. Nothing from NAMM 2020 made it before the virus lockdown?

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

Edited April 27, 2020 by BluesKing777

[Brucebubs]

19 minutes ago, BluesKing777 said:

 

 

As Slim said earlier - 1.72" nut is still the "Ren F' neck, not a 50s Gibson neck...

Is your distributor the one starting with Au? Don't tell us the name. 

I was talking about this somewhere else, I have no idea how they distribute or organise anything but all I can say is that as an example, Taylor has started making the new models before they advertise, I think. Last year my new Taylor 717e Builder's Edition was in the shop near me about 1 1/2 months after it was announced at NAMM 2019 - they are listed as having their own Australian distributorship, some of the new Martins were here about 3 months later - the more mid range, customs and a couple of the new MDs. So they are 'on it'. Gibson didn't go to NAMM 2019, so nothing new last year to order. Nothing from NAMM 2020 made it before the virus lockdown?

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

 

It does start with 'Au' but don't you think Gibson USA should have given all their distributors a 'heads up' on upcoming models before displaying the guitars at NAMM 2020?

When I ordered mine there were none in any US stores but they were taking 'pre-orders'. I saw one listed as available at Sweetwater last week week but it was the 'Antique Natural' version, not the Vintage Sunburst. https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CSJB2057AN--gibson-acoustic-1957-sj-200-antique-natural

I had 2 US based people volunteer to purchase and ship to me which would have saved some money but rendered the warranty not valid - couldn't risk it so I buckled and went this way.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Brucebubs

[tpbiii]

On 4/25/2020 at 11:30 PM, BluesKing777 said:

 

Bringing this up again.... I was playing 2 guitars this morning where Martin had gone to extreme and probably ridiculous lengths for accuracy!

I have 2 very different Martins that have very different concepts - one is my Martin OM18 Authentic where for all intents and purposes, the guitar is exactly like the 1933 model they copied. There was disagreement on forums because it has a torrefied Adi top and the original had brand new Adi top! The new one has a VTS Martin finish to try and copy the 1933, which just had whatever finish they were using on the day. It also has my preferred spacings for fingerpicking - 1 3/4” ebony nut and 2 3/8” bridge spacing. And a fat V neck! And did I say it sounds absolutely superb? And...they don’t make them anymore....dropped for something newer and shinier.

The other Martin I played is my D18 with onboard Aura F1+ system - they went to extraordinary trouble to make a guitar with 1 3/4” nut and the ‘general ballpark’ specs of a 1938 Martin D18 they used to base the new guitar on......except for this one, they recorded the Aura images in a top Nashville setup using the museum 1938 D18 using 9 of the famous mics of that ere! So when plugged in I get a little bit of the 1938 DNA come through my amp! Except this morning when I picked the guitar out of the case, it had jumped through the next stage of the ‘opening up’ hoop and ....Wow! But you know, a D18 great for fingerpicking is not what they were made for until this model re-created a bit of the 1938! And....they also don’t make this one anymore!

So come on Gibson, I want an exact copy of a Banner LG2 and J45  and 33 L-00 with fat nuts and V necks!

P.S. I checked Reverb.com (again) and the Banner J45s are getting up near $15K, while the LG2 Banners and L-00s are way better value. But some have more splits than Swan Lake! That is why we want new ones with correct specs for....$4,299 .😧

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

 

I don't know if people like this our not -- feel free to criticize me and I will stop.  The only thing I generally have to add sometimes to discussions like this is I sometimes I have the actual guitars being copied.  Just to add color if not substance to the discussion I will put up pictures of some original examples in my basement.  In this case, I have a 1938 D-18, a 1934 000-18 long scale (same guitar as a 33 OM-18) as well as various LGs and Ls.  In this case I might post the pictures below.

Etc.

So is this good? Bad? OK? Not OK?  I love to talk about guitars -- perhaps too much?

I also have over 900 videos in vimeo.  I started this system more than a decade ago to provide (potentially if you have the right audio system) faithful reproduction of the sound of vintage instruments.  Since then a lot more stuff has found its way in -- jam sessions, songs, and even some shows.  However, most of the stuff involves vintage guitars in some way.

So here are instructions for finding all the demos for (say) an LG-1. 

got to www.vimeo.com/tpbiii/videos

Search for LG-1 -- you'll get a list like google.

Also search for LG1 -- because I was not a consistent as I should have been.

I have two LG-1s -- a rare all mahogany LG-1 from 1943; and the guitar of my youth, a 1959 LG-1.  If you just searched for LG, you would get all of these plus my 46 LG-2.

All the best,

-Tom

Edited April 27, 2020 by tpbiii

[Dave F]

33 minutes ago, tpbiii said:

I don't know if people like this our not -- feel free to criticize me and I will stop.  

........

So is this good? Bad? OK? Not OK?  I love to talk about guitars -- perhaps too much?

.....

All the best,

-Tom

Never get tired of seeing the originals!

Keep'em coming.

[jt]

On 4/26/2020 at 10:45 AM, Dave F said:

Once they're back up and running, I wouldn't think it would be too difficult. As Nick mentioned, they nailed it with the early Legend series. I have a J-45 Legend and preferred it over the vintage '42 I had. I also have a 1932 L00 RI which seems to be the same as a Legend without the VOS. Another good reissue was the LG2 reissue of of JT's Banner LG1. They nailed it. Beefy neck and everything looks correct.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124165305692

 

 

 

So, Gibson did an OK job on the 4 original Banners I sent, along with X-ray and CT-scan images of my guitars. As many know, I asked for neither money nor guitars. I only wanted the Kalamazoo Gals credited and a donation to a women’s’ history nonprofit. Neither happened and it took me nearly a year to get my guitars returned.

The replicas were good guitars. For reasons I’ll never understand, I only got the opportunity to play them by buying them. They were not accurate replicas. When in Bozeman, when Gibson few me out, I watched a CNC machine carving necks. I observed, oh, you could program the machine to cut tapered headstocks. “Maybe,” was the reply I received.

Of the replicas, the LG was the most accurate. Still, Gibson gave it the wrong model designation (LG-2 instead of LG-1), the wrong finish, and applied the headstock logo improperly.

Such a wonderful and curious company.

[tpbiii]

39 minutes ago, jt said:

So, Gibson did an OK job on the 4 original Banners I sent, along with X-ray and CT-scan images of my guitars. As many know, I asked for neither money nor guitars. I only wanted the Kalamazoo Gals credited and a donation to a women’s’ history nonprofit. Neither happened and it took me nearly a year to get my guitars returned.

The replicas were good guitars. For reasons I’ll never understand, I only got the opportunity to play them by buying them. They were not accurate replicas. When in Bozeman, when Gibson few me out, I watched a CNC machine carving necks. I observed, oh, you could program the machine to cut tapered headstocks. “Maybe,” was the reply I received.

Of the replicas, the LG was the most accurate. Still, Gibson gave it the wrong model designation (LG-2 instead of LG-1), the wrong finish, and applied the headstock logo improperly.

Such a wonderful and curious company.

Hey, put a picture or two of yours up.  As much as these were discussed in the early days, I never got to see how close the were.  I think they are adjacent batches -- I don't remember without checking.

Let's pick,

-Tom

 

[BluesKing777]

1 hour ago, jt said:

So, Gibson did an OK job on the 4 original Banners I sent, along with X-ray and CT-scan images of my guitars. As many know, I asked for neither money nor guitars. I only wanted the Kalamazoo Gals credited and a donation to a women’s’ history nonprofit. Neither happened and it took me nearly a year to get my guitars returned.

The replicas were good guitars. For reasons I’ll never understand, I only got the opportunity to play them by buying them. They were not accurate replicas. When in Bozeman, when Gibson few me out, I watched a CNC machine carving necks. I observed, oh, you could program the machine to cut tapered headstocks. “Maybe,” was the reply I received.

Of the replicas, the LG was the most accurate. Still, Gibson gave it the wrong model designation (LG-2 instead of LG-1), the wrong finish, and applied the headstock logo improperly.

Such a wonderful and curious company.

 

 

So JT and Tom....

Cast your experienced eyes over the specs for the new reissue "Gibson 1942 Banner LG2" in the link and tell me what you think, please. Better still, go and play one, but that may be a problem just yet! Have you ver seen or heard of a Banner LG2 with a 1.69" nut?

https://www.gibson.com/Guitar/ACCMH3461/1942-Banner-LG-2/Vintage-Sunburst

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

[Dave F]

54 minutes ago, tpbiii said:

Hey, put a picture or two of yours up.  As much as these were discussed in the early days, I never got to see how close the were.  I think they are adjacent batches -- I don't remember without checking.

Let's pick,

-Tom

 

Here's mine.

Have you or John ever spoke to Eldon Whitford getting his opinion on the  J-45 Legend that was modeled after his guitar? Did he experience any problems with Gibson?

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Dave F
updates

[tpbiii]

57 minutes ago, BluesKing777 said:

 

 

So JT and Tom....

Cast your experienced eyes over the specs for the new reissue "Gibson 1942 Banner LG2" in the link and tell me what you think, please. Better still, go and play one, but that may be a problem just yet! Have you ver seen or heard of a Banner LG2 with a 1.69" nut?

https://www.gibson.com/Guitar/ACCMH3461/1942-Banner-LG-2/Vintage-Sunburst

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

Well an cosmetic difference is the tuners are in the wrong place for 1942.  Only a geek would notice.

[BluesKing777]

22 hours ago, Brucebubs said:

 

It does start with 'Au' but don't you think Gibson USA should have given all their distributors a 'heads up' on upcoming models before displaying the guitars at NAMM 2020?

When I ordered mine there were none in any US stores but they were taking 'pre-orders'. I saw one listed as available at Sweetwater last week week but it was the 'Antique Natural' version, not the Vintage Sunburst. https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CSJB2057AN--gibson-acoustic-1957-sj-200-antique-natural

I had 2 US based people volunteer to purchase and ship to me which would have saved some money but rendered the warranty not valid - couldn't risk it so I buckled and went this way.

 

Just returning to this for a sec - just had to mention that the local dealer I was talking about who only got 'select' models of Gibsons, that is, none I want, has not got it in for Gibson alone..but also the other brands. (As said earlier, we can only buy locally with the new 'support the dealer' thing...

So Martin brought out the new 'Modern Deluxe' series last year and among the new models that lit my fuse was a new 'Martin 000-28E Modern Deluxe' that came with all the new features PLUS a new Fishman Aura pickup development with a new 'high definition' Aura image with a blend control from 0-100% plus a vol and tome wheel but only ONE sound image.....

So let me go back to 2015 when I bought the Martin D18 E Retro with inbuilt Aura F1+ pickup system. It is a fabulous pickup sound with a choice of images created from 9  vintage mics that recorded a  real 1938 D18. ...probably some hoohah in there but the sounds are great. But some people thought it was too complicated. (you can alter just about everything like you had an Aura floor pedal with lots of knobs.)

So now they make it with just one image that they pick as the best, for say the 000-28e MD I was interested in. So, let me at 'em, I think, I want to try that!

But point of the reply - the local shop is NOT getting the model with the pickup - just the non pickup versions. Pfffffft, raspberry.

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by BluesKing777

[tpbiii]

55 minutes ago, Dave F said:

Here's mine.

Have you or John ever spoke to Eldon Whitford getting his opinion on the  J-45 Legend that was modeled after his guitar? Did he experience any problems with Gibson?

 

Tuners are different, but that is not all that odd I think.  Thanks for posting!  I have not talked to Eldon.  The guy I know that provided a lot of pictures for the book and who dealt with Gibson on a reissue from that period was Gary Burnette and the AJ.  But I never really talked to him about working with Gibson.

Best,

-Tom

[Dave F]

11 minutes ago, tpbiii said:

Tuners are different, but that is not all that odd I think.  Thanks for posting!  I have not talked to Eldon.  The guy I know that provided a lot of pictures for the book and who dealt with Gibson on a reissue from that period was Gary Burnette and the AJ.  But I never really talked to him about working with Gibson.

Best,

-Tom

I have some original tuners that need a little work. These are repos on it currently.