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SJ-200 quieter than a Martin J-40?


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I have a 2020 1957J 200.  I was listening to Vince gill talk about not confusing volume with better.  It’s more about tone for me.  I have quite a number of Martin’s Gibsons and they all have differen

A common misconception of large body maple guitars is that they are loud . That is not the case .Maple has two qualities that are apparent : a) A very rapid decay .Almost no overtones b

Why would I want to play a guitar that sounds like I stuffed a pillow in it? My all hog D-15M sounds great and at that price for a USA made guitar its a steal, the 000-28 is a different beast and

My re-necked now long-scale 1966 CW is the loudest acoustic here. It even tops the Firebird, which is loud and louder than the almost similar built Dove. The Dove is about as loud as the 2 TV H-birds, yet has a different inner sonic space. The 2012 TVs are not equally loud though, (May significantly louder than April) still both louder than 1965 CW, that could be called a quiet whisper without being a J-200 at all. . 

Loud may also be described as room-filling  or room embracing - meaning how much we feel the instrument reach out in front of us. It's quite easy to measure that when trying out different guitars in a shop or of course at home. Another way to measure it beyond doubt is to bring the guitars to acoustic jams and sense how much they speak up or disappear during such a party.         

For me the pattern is clear :                       My re-necked now long-scale 1966 CW is the loudest acoustic here

But loud ain't and should not be gawd. Neither when playing electric stadium or festival rock. And it's almost irrelevant when recording. 

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22 hours ago, Paul14 said:

About a week ago, on a Dove thread, some were discussing the Dove as being very loud.  What would make the Dove loud, & the J-200 quiet. Does that even make sense?

my J-200 is not only louder than my Dove, it’s “much” louder! I’m just trying to understand this whole thing?

Yes. This make sense when reading the article on wikipedia for Acoustic guitar.  read Acoustic Properties parte

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_guitar

depend on the size of the box

chamber acts like helmholtz resonator.

Cavity air vibrations couple to the outside aire through the soundhole.

How unfortunate this forum has profesor of sound to give good explanation but only wants to show pictures of all the guitars he has.

 

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22 hours ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

Your loud may not be my loud.

This is true. Loud is specific to each person

and the sj200 is of a very even EQ with no bad imbalance.

Hearing Aid for people makes more loud with boost to each end of the spectrum of frequency.

Harsh noise perceived more loud than sounds of even balance.

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1 hour ago, Raul Rehlmann said:

Yes. This make sense when reading the article on wikipedia for Acoustic guitar.  read Acoustic Properties parte

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_guitar

depend on the size of the box

chamber acts like helmholtz resonator.

Cavity air vibrations couple to the outside aire through the soundhole.

How unfortunate this forum has profesor of sound to give good explanation but only wants to show pictures of all the guitars he has.

 

With this taken under consideration, why then are the newer J-200’s noticeably quieter than the ones made 20yr ago?

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1 hour ago, Raul Rehlmann said:

Your other post shows it is possible to buy for half of new and at this moment there are 6 SJ200 guitar for sale on American ebay for average of 3800 USD.

Wouldn’t  spend $3800 for a whispering giant either. Wouldn’t want it period...

Edited by Paul14
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  • 8 months later...

I have a 2020 1957J 200.  I was listening to Vince gill talk about not confusing volume with better.  It’s more about tone for me.  I have quite a number of Martin’s Gibsons and they all have different voices and their tones are all out of this world but different.  A lot of people have the either or comparison  almost like there’s some kind of a competition going on  and I understand that especially if you can only have one guitar.   I know Peter Townsend used a  J 200 when he recorded Tommy and Jimmy page on Led Zeppelin one and the sound is phenomenal.  as far as volume and rumble is concerned the volume is very loud when I make  action higher and it rumbles like thunder.  I prefer the action lower less thunder quieter playing like butter. On all my guitars the volume and tone changes depending on the action from low medium or high.  I find it that all my guitars have a sweet spot where you maximize tone and volume.  Just a hair turn on that truss rod either way will change it.  Everything‘s a trade off with these guitars a little more of this but then a little less of that 

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One of my main acoustics is a 2015 HD-28. I got it in 2017 and of course the first thing I did was shave the saddle down. 

I murdered that guitar.  Destroyed it.

I ordered a stock Martin replacement saddle, dropped it in, and it's fine. 

Not touching it again. The action is a little higher than what I try to dial in, but the payoff in tone is worth it. 

People have long discussed the physics involved, and I'm not going to pretend to understand, but I've never seen such a dramatic 'proof' as this Martin.

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I've owned two SJ200's over the years and wouldn't consider either of them super loud guitars like my D-18 or AJ. One was a total dud and the other was pretty amazing, but far from a cannon. Loud doesn't automatically mean amazing, at least in my set of criteria. Your criteria might be different. 

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2 hours ago, ksdaddy said:

One of my main acoustics is a 2015 HD-28. I got it in 2017 and of course the first thing I did was shave the saddle down. 

I murdered that guitar.  Destroyed it.

I ordered a stock Martin replacement saddle, dropped it in, and it's fine. 

Not touching it again. The action is a little higher than what I try to dial in, but the payoff in tone is worth it. 

People have long discussed the physics involved, and I'm not going to pretend to understand, but I've never seen such a dramatic 'proof' as this Martin.

How come some people can talk about their Martins and its cool. I do and people want to dump a bucket of s-hit on my my head. Not sure if its because you got the power to banish people or not, just an observation.

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1 hour ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

How come some people can talk about their Martins and its cool. I do and people want to dump a bucket of s-hit on my my head. Not sure if its because you got the power to banish people or not, just an observation.

Perhaps it's in the coarse way you express yourself.

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38 minutes ago, olie said:

Perhaps it's in the coarse way you express yourself.

Could be, but like the moderator said in a post when someone mention when they got their wee-wee stepped for talking about politics  a while back that maybe you don't have thick enough skin for this forum. I certainly do.

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1 hour ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

Could be, but like the moderator said in a post when someone mention when they got their wee-wee stepped for talking about politics  a while back that maybe you don't have thick enough skin for this forum. I certainly do.

It seems obvious that you don't really care about anyone's thoughts other than your own. The world doesn't wait on your every crude  pronouncement, you know. So perhaps another forum is where you should be.

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2 hours ago, olie said:

It seems obvious that you don't really care about anyone's thoughts other than your own. The world doesn't wait on your every crude  pronouncement, you know. So perhaps another forum is where you should be.

Ok when your a mod you can boot me till then, nah. 

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23 hours ago, JimM said:

I have a 2020 1957J 200.  I was listening to Vince gill talk about not confusing volume with better.  It’s more about tone for me.  I have quite a number of Martin’s Gibsons and they all have different voices and their tones are all out of this world but different.  A lot of people have the either or comparison  almost like there’s some kind of a competition going on  and I understand that especially if you can only have one guitar.   I know Peter Townsend used a  J 200 when he recorded Tommy and Jimmy page on Led Zeppelin one and the sound is phenomenal.  as far as volume and rumble is concerned the volume is very loud when I make  action higher and it rumbles like thunder.  I prefer the action lower less thunder quieter playing like butter. On all my guitars the volume and tone changes depending on the action from low medium or high.  I find it that all my guitars have a sweet spot where you maximize tone and volume.  Just a hair turn on that truss rod either way will change it.  Everything‘s a trade off with these guitars a little more of this but then a little less of that 

Hi JimM, I'm also a 2020 Custom historic 1957 SJ-200 owner and I can see a couple of generalizations in this thread that this guitar just blows out of the water.

'Maple is bright' - nope, my guitar is the warmest, lushest guitar I've ever played, amazing depth.

'Jumbo's need mediums to drive that big top' - sure and you need dynamite to plant daisies - comes from Gibson with PB lights and that's all it needs. I switched to 80/20 lights on the first string change and it even got better!

https://i.imgur.com/2YaN7jam.jpg

Edited by Brucebubs
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Don’t know if my rosewood J200SJ is louder than my walnut J100SJ, or if either is louder than any of my other Gibsons.  My Maple Dove is (to my ears) likely the loudest sounding guitar I’ve owned, but that doesn’t mean a lot to me.  I play softly on all my guitars.   Don’t need to be heard above a banjo or fiddle.  For me, it’s all about how comfortable the guitar is for me and if the tone fits with what I’m trying to say with my music.  For us to bond with a guitar, I think we need to feel that the guitar is an extension of who we are as individuals.  Just my view!

As far as pure volume goes, lots of things weigh-in on it:  wood, strings, setup, our technique, attack, fingers, picks>.......Anyway, good thread.

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Oh cool! We're talking about guitar stuff again.  😎

Since my last post in the topic 10 months ago, I've added my Rosewood SJ-200 Historical Collection (Pre-War) to go along with my 2018 SJ-200 Standard and my two 'dreads. I also switched my one on a stand fora week rotation to two out on stands, switching one out every week. It evolved to one 'dread and one SJ200 at a time, but I did have a couple weeks of SJ-200 out at once. One positive thing about doing it this way is that I'm gaining a better sense of similarities and differences of my small collection.

One of the niftiest things I've discovered is that my SJ-200s both have a tendency to go into another warmth gear when worn strings being warmer, more mellow sounding factor. Doing this with my 'dreads just means the typical worn out strings sounds related to being "muddy" or "warbly". From there, on the SJ-200s, they just grow even more quiet before giving way to making them sound like cheap laminated guitars. The dreads can get to that point, too, but so far, the warmth stage has not been there.

Right now, on my standard Maple SJ-200, is a set of 80/20 JPs as inspired by Brucebub's positive review. Great strings. They're either beginning to wear down or the winter saddle needs to get put in as the setup is borderline too low now. Kind of like what ksdaddy had going on with his Martin. Maybe a bit of volume drop.  I've already put my Winter saddles in the D41 and the RW SJ-200. Might have done that with the Hummingbird, too. Hard to remember such things.

So, in the spirit of contrast and compare - My SJ-200s are both less boisterous than my Martin D-41 and my Hummingbird. The big, bright projection of the dreads is good wholesome fun, but so too is the warmth and depth of the SJ-200s. The RW SJ-200 is the brighter of the two SJ-200s. The Maple is the warmer of the two. The Dreads are different from each-other, too, which I think sort of follows along the Martin vs Gibson party lines. The Hummingbird's motor vs the D41 highs, the thumps are different and so on and so forth.

Which one is my favorite? The one with the strings closest to their sweet-spot.    

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20 hours ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

How come some people can talk about their Martins and its cool. I do and people want to dump a bucket of s-hit on my my head. Not sure if its because you got the power to banish people or not, just an observation.

Sarge,  ComeOnMan.  Even you have to admit that you go overboard about your Martins 10x more than anyone else here.  You post several times a day about your Martins. Complain about Gibsons, don't own a Gibson Acoustic,  and make comments like the one above without having been prodded or poked.     As has been said here - "Do you go on a Chevy Lovers Site and bash Chevys and praise Fords daily? "   It's sort of disrespectful.  

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28 minutes ago, fortyearspickn said:

Sarge,  ComeOnMan.  Even you have to admit that you go overboard about your Martins 10x more than anyone else here.  You post several times a day about your Martins. Complain about Gibsons, don't own a Gibson Acoustic,  and make comments like the one above without having been prodded or poked.     As has been said here - "Do you go on a Chevy Lovers Site and bash Chevys and praise Fords daily? "   It's sort of disrespectful.  

But I have owned one a J-15 and about 20+Gibson Electrics. Show me in the rules it says a Gibson guitar is mandatory for forum member ship. Its like the politics rule which gets broken all the time, mostly by you.

 

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22 hours ago, Brucebubs said:

Hi JimM, I'm also a 2020 Custom historic 1957 SJ-200 owner and I can see a couple of generalizations in this thread that this guitar just blows out of the water.

'Maple is bright' - nope, my guitar is the warmest, lushest guitar I've ever played, amazing depth.

'Jumbo's need mediums to drive that big top' - sure and you need dynamite to plant daisies - comes from Gibson with PB lights and that's all it needs. I switched to 80/20 lights on the first string change and it even got better!

https://i.imgur.com/2YaN7jam.jpg

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I agree with you 100% on all counts.  Mediums would choke this instrument.   The vibrations I get from the BP lights are amazing.  I am so beyond grateful to be the owner of this instrument. When  I’m not playing it I’m gazing  at it.  I have a set ofJP 80 20s in the wings to try next.  Thanks for sharing your thoughts.  Can’t wait to try the string change. 

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