Robin Nahum Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Not limited strictly to Americans' date=' I think people of EVERY nation should consider the following; Would you swear an oath of allegience to the nation you live and prosper in? What's it worth to you? How much does it really mean to you? For example, if somebody came to you and said "I need you, and a commitment from you, are you with us or not?" How many Americans would commit themselves without reservation to this? ....... If you were born in the USA, are a citizen and steward of society, are actually concerned with the well-being and success of ALL of us, would you swear such an oath and remain true to it forever? I know, there will be people who would take issue with a particular phrase or try to 'interpret' it as they see fit. Forget all that sh!t. Yes or no.[/quote'] The point I was making was not so much about military service (as commendable as that is) but what duty millions of Americans will avoid because they just can't be bothered to do what's right. Not compelled at all to serve their fellow man..... They let the rest of us work' date=' volunteer, sacrifice, and then get kicked in the nuts while they piss on everybody's shoes and call it their 'right' to do as they please because "this is America." How did it [b']become[/b] America? Not thru the efforts (or lack thereof) of self-centered slackers.... I am glad you posted this last comment because it helps me understand what you are trying to say in your original post. The oath asks whether one would defend the US. Many people (employed and unemployed, rich and poor etc) have an issue with oaths and loyalty tests and take "all that sh!t" pretty seriously. The requirement to swear oaths and take loyalty tests has totalitarian connotations, violates the constitutional right to one's beliefs, brings back bad memories for some and at the end of the day pretty much fails to achieve what is intended. The "all that sh!t" people know that one can be a loyal citizen without taking an oath - and would mostly serve unreservedly if the United States was threatened - and would be unlikely to serve if this was not the case. The question of whether people are willing to work is another question and I think you have yet to establish how this would be addressed by people taking an oath. Unemployment is usually solved in times like this by programs of public works. And as to how you achieve social cohesion - well that's an interesting one.... RN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fezo Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Thanks for that point, Homz. I've got a friend who is a Colonel in the Army. While he did not vote for Obama and will get in arguments all day on politics he will not tolerate abusive comments about him. His attitude is "that's my Commander in Chief. If I had to take a bullet for him I would with no hesitation." On other point, I have a daughter from China. Because my wife wasn't able to go with me to pick her up she didn't get the citizenship paper. She's a citizen and has a passport but that one piece of paper that says she's a citizen and doesn't have to be renewed would run several hundred dollars and endless paperwork. I, too, find it difficult to have to tell her she can't be president. Of any of my kids she'd be the one most likely to aspire to such a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted March 21, 2009 Author Share Posted March 21, 2009 Change a law put in place for very good reason - so YOUR adopted child could be President? Not sure I agree with that one. I understand the sentiment, don't get me wrong, but that won't fly with me. You've provided those foreign-born children immense opportunities regardless, I don't think they will be denied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted March 21, 2009 Author Share Posted March 21, 2009 Okay, if the oath at the top of this thread is too much for some to handle - how about this one? On my honor I will do my best To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the (blank) Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight. TRUSTWORTHY A (blank) tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is part of his code of conduct. People can depend on him. LOYAL A (blank) is true to his family, (blank) leaders, friends, school, and nation. HELPFUL A (blank) is concerned about other people. He does things willingly for others without pay or reward. FRIENDLY A (blank) is a friend to all. He is a brother to other (blank)s. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own. COURTEOUS A (blank) is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows good manners make it easier for people to get along together. KIND A (blank) understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. He does not hurt or kill harmless things without reason. OBEDIENT A (blank) follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them. CHEERFUL A (blank) looks for the bright side of things. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way. He tries to make others happy. THRIFTY A (blank) works to pay his way and to help others. He saves for unforeseen needs. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property. BRAVE A (blank) can face danger even if he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at or threaten him. CLEAN A (blank) keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He goes around with those who believe in living by these same ideals. He helps keep his home and community clean. REVERENT A (blank) is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others. Motto Be Prepared Slogan Do a Good Turn Daily How many of you adults here think they could be a (blank)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myspace.com/jessenoah Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 why did you have to blank? was a cub scout, then a boy scout, moved to a different town before i could become an eagle scout boy scouts might be the best thing to happen to a young man-the right mixture of competitive sports-creative works-and honorable organizations does wonders! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 boy scouts might be the best thing to happen to a young man-the right mixture of competitive sports-creative works-and honorable organizations does wonders! ...as well as Karate (worth every penny). My seven year old is starting to say "yes sir" to me now and I like it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted March 21, 2009 Author Share Posted March 21, 2009 why did you have to blank? So people didn't see 'Scout' and immediately dismiss what the post means. Thanks for the help Jesse! :-) Thought people might read it and consider each statement on its own merit. Say Boy Scout out loud and people start jumping up and down yelling about all the little "Hitler" wannabes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wicked1 Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Change a law put in place for very good reason - so YOUR adopted child could be President?Not sure I agree with that one. I understand the sentiment' date=' don't get me wrong, but that won't fly with me. You've provided those foreign-born children immense opportunities regardless, I don't think they will be denied.[/quote'] The law was put in place so that Alexander Hamilton couldn't be president. It was a stupid political move. And it's not just MY adopted child. As you were so quick to point out, there are plenty of adults who are naturalized citizens and made a conscious choice to be citizens of this country. While dumbasses like you were just lucky enough to be born here. By the time my child would be old enough to run for President, he would've been a citizen of this country for 35 years. He doesn't remember anything of the country he was born in. Why would he be any less allegiant than anyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted March 22, 2009 Author Share Posted March 22, 2009 Change the law ******. And good luck doing that when people like me will fight you to their death to keep you from f-ing with the Constitution any more than it has been. Get that done - legally, fairly, and with the acknowledged consent of the populace - and THEN I might support you. As it stands, you represent a selfish interest (yourself) and want your child to trump Obummer so YOU can get a pat on the back? I want ANY citizen of this nation to succeed, but if I was in your childs' little shoes I would NOT expect an entire nation to jump thru hoops for ME. Obummer was born God-knows-where to a white mother who raised him in complete absence of his black father, yet he's celebrated as a 'black' President? Funny how reality gets a new spin when people want something bad enough..... You adopted the kids why...??? Think about that before you wanna climb up my *** and insult me. I chose my words carefully in that post to avoid insulting you, I see how clearly you grasp that. Let me make one thing clear; I also believe in equality between the sexes - gender will not protect you from getting what you deserve if you ask for it. Get mad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSG_Standard Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 The law was put in place so that Alexander Hamilton couldn't be president. It was a stupid political move. And it's not just MY adopted child. As you were so quick to point out' date=' there are plenty of adults who are naturalized citizens and made a conscious choice to be citizens of this country. While dumbasses like you were just lucky enough to be born here. By the time my child would be old enough to run for President, he would've been a citizen of this country for 35 years. He doesn't remember anything of the country he was born in. Why would he be any less allegiant than anyone else? [/quote'] Maybe... "A strong argument can be made that the Framers considered natural born to refer to a birth on U.S. soil. Indeed, Alexander Hamilton was viewed as ineligible due to his birth in the West Indies. It has often been suggested that the provision was written in part to block Hamilton by his detractors — though this may be apocryphal. It seems more likely that people like Jay were concerned with a preference among some to have a King, including some foreign princes who might rule the nation. Moreover, Hamilton was a citizen of the United States at the time of the signing of the Constitution. The phrase “natural born” was in early drafts of the Constitution and appears to have been initially suggested by John Jay — who wrote a letter to George Washington on the requirement. In his letter, Jay wrote: "Permit me to hint, whether it would be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expressly that the Command in Chief of the American army shall not be given to nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen."" If you or other folks in your position have such strong feelings, then work to change the constitution. I beleive we are safer as a nation, with only natural born citizens as president. Not that your son wouldn't be a good president. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wicked1 Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 If you or other folks in your position have such strong feelings' date=' then work to change the constitution. I beleive we are safer as a nation, with only natural born citizens as president. Not that your son wouldn't be a good president. [/quote'] Of course, immigrants are just dandy--except they're dangerous by nature. Doesn't matter that they swear a frackin' OATH, which y'all were way impressed with. Who cares that they will put their lives on the line as service-men and women. Can't let them serve in the highest office of the land even if they've lived here for 30 or 40 years cause they might sell us to the Commies. So, this is one of those cases where luck trumps choice. Perhaps this was relevant when the Constitution was drafted, but it's asinine to say "You can be anything in this country if you work hard enough" and then leave out the very people who built this country. And this is not about MY kids. Every man, woman, and child who has come here from somewhere else has worked hard to get here. My 7-month-old had to have a background check just to get a visa and we had the advantage of being U.S. citizens bringing him here. People sit for years just waiting for the U.S. to decide it's ok for them to come in. But none of that matters cause if you were born on U.S. soil, you're special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted March 22, 2009 Author Share Posted March 22, 2009 Who cares that they will put their lives on the line as service-men and women. I think that would be an excellent idea' date=' worthy of the highest praise by me and everybody in my family or circle of friends. I'll go so far as to offer military service as a fast 'path to citizenship' that the Liberals so love to exhort to the masses. Only for those arriving in the country legally, of course.... Can't let them serve in the highest office of the land even if they've lived here for 30 or 40 years cause they might sell us to the Commies. Oversimplified to help you emotionally extort sympathy for you as you work toward martyrdom. Take that sh!t somewhere else. Millions of American immigrants thru the generations have accepted the limitation of the POTUS. To say you will not accept that is a little pretentious in my opinion. But none of that matters cause if you were born on U.S. soil' date=' you're special. [/quote']I'll accept that as one of the 'self-evident' truths I embrace. No other country on the planet matches what we have here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSG_Standard Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Whenever I'm called special, it doesn't seem to have a very good connotation to it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted March 22, 2009 Author Share Posted March 22, 2009 You ARE special KSG.... And you live in God's Country - Texas! Seriously, I refuse to apologize for being born in the USA, for being white, for being a man, for having a good job... I know it rubs people the wrong way, but I'm proud of my little patch of Earth and I take my place in it seriously. Nobody has the right to expect anybody to cater to them or be given anything. Opportunity can be found and utilized for personal gain, unless they're retarded and don't know the difference anyway... I put myself where I am today, despite the efforts of a few family members and a two-year divorce war. I got some lucky breaks along the way, but I also find the harder I work the luckier I get. I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but I've done okay. What's stopping ANYBODY else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSG_Standard Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 You ARE special KSG....And you live in God's Country - Texas! Seriously' date=' I refuse to apologize for being born in the USA, for being white, for being a man, for having a good job... I know it rubs people the wrong way, but I'm proud of my little patch of Earth and I take my place in it seriously. Nobody has the right to expect anybody to cater to them or be given anything. Opportunity can be found and utilized for personal gain, unless they're retarded and don't know the difference anyway... I put myself where I am today, despite the efforts of a few family members and a two-year divorce war. I got some lucky breaks along the way, but I also find the harder I work the luckier I get. I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but I've done okay. What's stopping ANYBODY else? [/quote'] Amen to that brother! I don't think that anybody has a "right" to become president anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Nahum Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Okay' date=' if the oath at the top of this thread is too much for some to handle - how about this one? On my honor I will do my best To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the (blank) Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight. TRUSTWORTHY A (blank) tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is part of his code of conduct. People can depend on him. LOYAL A (blank) is true to his family, (blank) leaders, friends, school, and nation. HELPFUL A (blank) is concerned about other people. He does things willingly for others without pay or reward. FRIENDLY A (blank) is a friend to all. He is a brother to other (blank)s. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own. COURTEOUS A (blank) is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows good manners make it easier for people to get along together. KIND A (blank) understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. He does not hurt or kill harmless things without reason. OBEDIENT A (blank) follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them. CHEERFUL A (blank) looks for the bright side of things. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way. He tries to make others happy. THRIFTY A (blank) works to pay his way and to help others. He saves for unforeseen needs. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property. BRAVE A (blank) can face danger even if he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at or threaten him. CLEAN A (blank) keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He goes around with those who believe in living by these same ideals. He helps keep his home and community clean. REVERENT A (blank) is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others. [b']Motto[/b] Be Prepared Slogan Do a Good Turn Daily How many of you adults here think they could be a (blank)? I might be able to be a blank but : [*] like I said, I have a problem with oaths - and oath people worry me [*] I don't believe in God [*] as to honesty, when my wife asks me if she looks big in a new dress, I always say, "No" [*] obedient? Remember the Holocaust. Sometimes we have to disobey - although I guess the prescription countenances that [*] clean? Sure but not as per the prescription above and I suspect most people of compassion would also take issue with it [*] reverent - see above. The other stuff, I think I can manage. RN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homz Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 I bet the liberals would beat the conservatives in a poker game. Liberals are just smarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikko18 Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 everything except the 4thI aint gonna shoot no guns @ no-one What if they shoot at you? Then what? That would be a good time for some quick assessment of your values' date=' virtues and will to survive....[/quote'] he never said he wouldn't hack apart his enemys with a katana. just cause he wont shoot people doesn't mean he could defend himself and his country. besides blades don't run out of amo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Yes, sensitive people of the 21st century do not want to be bound by oaths. To promise to be clean - a boy scout might be expected to set an example of pride in his town by picking up a candywrapper. Better today that he not join, and go tagging instead to express himself. And we shouldn't be expected to serve in the military - because war is insane and we know that we can win over the North Koreans and Iranians by just talking to them. Our Founding Fathers knew firsthand what it took to create a country that would work. That is why the Consistution doesn't need to be re-interpreted. They wrote it knowing human nature would never change and there needed to be checks and balances to prevent politicians from becoming despots. It is all built on responsibility and committment. Otherwise - you have a commune, not a democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Nikko16, I assume 16 is your age and not your IQ? do you seriously believe someone not willing to use a gun is going to defend himself with a knife?? Ever hear the expression - 'He brought a knife to a gun fight.'? Usually at funerals. People not willing to defend themselves or families with a gun, are certainly too squeemish to do it with a knife. THey will try to 'reason' with the person who is taking over their home and possessions. If they try to hard, they'll get shot. Some people, I hate to be the one to tell you this, are not "human" by your definition. They would, if they thought they could get away with it, break into your home and kill you and take your Guitars and sell them for pennies on the dollar. All that keeps them at bay is the high probability of not getting away with it. If you live in DC, the chances of getting shot by a homeowner were 0. So, crime was less risky. Fortunately the US Supreme Court (by a scary slim margin) judged that the DC law was in violation of the 2nd Amendment. Imagine that. An illegal law? What is this country coming too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 I bet the liberals would beat the conservatives in a poker game. Liberals are just smarter. Careful. I can take a good joke unless it really insults my intelligence. I may not know much about Gibson guitars, which is the main reason why I'm here, but I'm pretty sure I can beat you in poker. I didn't get a Ph.D. at age 24 in mechanical and aerospace engineering and then work at NASA without counting well in my head (I've been asked to leave many poker games because of my counting abilities). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSG_Standard Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 I bet the liberals would beat the conservatives in a poker game. Liberals are just smarter. ;) One of the skills required to win in poker is bluffing or lying...interesting...:D I think we'd beat you guys hands down in a game of risk... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky4 Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 And we shouldn't be expected to serve in the military - because war is insane and we know that we can win over the North Koreans and Iranians by just talking to them. You can't be serious. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said it was his duty to bring on the apocolypse. You can't reason with insanity. Could you reason with a high school bully? Americans are hated because our country was founded on Christian beliefs and our support of Israel. We should have wiped Iran off the map 9-12 To Iran, we ARE the great satan and they WILL eventually try to destroy us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikko18 Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Nikko16' date=' I assume 16 is your age and not your IQ? do you seriously believe someone not willing to use a gun is going to defend himself with a knife?? Ever hear the expression - 'He brought a knife to a gun fight.'? Usually at funerals. People not willing to defend themselves or families with a gun, are certainly too squeemish to do it with a knife. THey will try to 'reason' with the person who is taking over their home and possessions. If they try to hard, they'll get shot. Some people, I hate to be the one to tell you this, are not "human" by your definition. They would, if they thought they could get away with it, break into your home and kill you and take your Guitars and sell them for pennies on the dollar. All that keeps them at bay is the high probability of not getting away with it. If you live in DC, the chances of getting shot by a homeowner were 0. So, crime was less risky. Fortunately the US Supreme Court (by a scary slim margin) judged that the DC law was in violation of the 2nd Amendment. Imagine that. An illegal law? What is this country coming too?[/quote'] dude i was joking. that's a good percantage of what we do here at the gibson forum. i don't know who you are (must have showed up while i was away), but you will get used to it and join in on the fun. cause really, thats why i come here. it's fun. and also if you must know according to the IQ quiz that gets emailed to me weekly my IQ is 137. and according to the dumb test i am 12% dumb xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myspace.com/jessenoah Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 um hello, i didnt say i wouldnt defend myself-or serve in the military if there was a draft-what i said was that i wouldnt shoot anybody, as in, gimme a job doing something useful, something that suits my talents, something that takes advantage of my brain and skills.............. which isnt to say that footsoldiers dont have thoose skiller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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