Thinking of Closing the Door on "Vintage" Guitars

[jt]

7 minutes ago, Dave F said:

As a side note: I recently bought a Martin with the baked top and was impressed so I just ordered one of the new 1942 SJ to hear how the Gibson’s sound. 

Ooh. Please keep us posted.

What Martin model? I think that Martin is making wonderful guitars these days.

[E-minor7]

28 minutes ago, Dave F said:

As a side note: I recently bought a Martin with the baked top and was impressed so I just ordered one of the new 1942 SJ to hear how the Gibson’s sound. 

 

Wow ^ what a situation. I'm not the only one here who'd take an A/B in like a kitten licks cool cream'n'butter.  Are you able to offer such a show ?

[Dave F]

30 minutes ago, jt said:

Ooh. Please keep us posted.

What Martin model? I think that Martin is making wonderful guitars these days.

I’ve had a D41 Special for about 10 years that is my favorite guitar. A few months ago I got a CS-D41-15 nos that has the baked top. 

[j45nick]

3 hours ago, Dave F said:

As a side note: I recently bought a Martin with the baked top and was impressed so I just ordered one of the new 1942 SJ to hear how the Gibson’s sound. 

Let us know when you get that SJ. That's the rosewood one?

[Dave F]

27 minutes ago, j45nick said:

Let us know when you get that SJ. That's the rosewood one?

Yes on RW. Quoted 4-6 weeks. 

[BoSoxBiker]

The new Pre-War SJ-200 is on a very short list of candidates. The '42 SJ is on that same list. It might be a non-issue, though, if a used 2013-ish Sheryl Crow SJ appears for reasonable dough.

I'm very eager for more videos on the Historic series to start appearing.

[bayoubengal1954]

On 6/23/2020 at 10:24 AM, zombywoof said:

No real point to this thread.  Just thinking out loud.  But I am definitely experiencing a weird scenes inside the goldmine moment.  It actually started when I snagged the L3.  Yes, it has a sound all its own and is drop dead gorgeous.  But what I have started to wonder is was this a guitar I really liked the "idea" of (if that makes any sense) more than anything else.    As a starting point, I ain't a collector.  I started buying what were then just "used" guitars  because they were cheaper than new ones.   And making it tougher is folks know me and it has actually become easier for me to acquire old guitars as I get a steady stream of them being offered.  Now this does not mean my '42 J50 is going anywhere.  In this case I have not played any J45/50  old or new in decades I liked the sound and feel of better.  Nor does it mean I am swearing off older guitars.  That door will always remain ajar.  Just starting to rethink things.  And what is driving me is I  cannot rationalize keeping as many guitars around as I do.  So if something new is to enter my life I really want something old to move over and make room.    Anyway, at the moment topping the list of newish  guitars I am seriously interested in are the Gibson Stage Deluxe and Collings CJ35 (particularly the opaque yellow version) which remans about as close as you are going to get to a later-1930s Gibson J35.  And there is still a certain Huss & Dalton I played a year or two back which continues to haunt me.   Hell, maybe this is all just me getting old.

 

I hear ya. I had a great time with my one Vintage Project: the Frankenstein ‘38 L-00 Neck/‘48 J-50 Body.  The money spent could never be recovered in a sale, but I love the tone and probably play it the most. 

Having said that, I have recently been getting a lot of joy out of buying used newer guitars based on  old models (Larson Brothers and Bacon and Day inspired) built by Tony Klassen (his less expensive Crooked Star Line from New Era Guitars). 

I also have a Jubal built by the late Aaron Cowles which is based on his old ‘34 Original Jumbo that sounds great.

Of course there is no substitute for old wood, but some modern builders are doing some great work at getting a very authentic tone, at least to my ears. 

Now if someone wants to  give me a Roy Smeck already converted with no work needed, that would be okay. 😉

 

 

 

 

[zombywoof]

9 hours ago, bayoubengal1954 said:

Having said that, I have recently been getting a lot of joy out of buying used newer guitars based on  old models (Larson Brothers and Bacon and Day inspired) built by Tony Klassen (his less expensive Crooked Star Line from New Era Guitars). 

 

 

 That is where I am headed.  One of the top contenders for me is a Collings CJ35.  Based on a late-1930s Gibson J35 loaned to them by Mass Street Music while not a spot on copy it has the non-scalloped bracing and three tone bars.   It helps that they are factory  built guitars so do not carry the heftier price tag of others.  Plus, I am looking at used guitars anyway.

Oddly the repair shop I use also builds a small number of acoustics and offers versions of the AJ and L-00.  They base them on originals which had come into the shop for extensive repairs allowing them to measure and document every part.  Only problem I have with them is not only are the expensive but they tend to bling them out with more abalone that I am comfortable with (my comfort level when it comes to abalone is none)

P.S. Thanks for the Crooked Star recommendation.  Their version of the Bacon & Day Senorita made just my jaw drop.  

Edited June 30, 2020 by zombywoof

[bayoubengal1954]

1 hour ago, zombywoof said:

 That is where I am headed.  One of the top contenders for me is a Collings CJ35.  Based on a late-1930s Gibson J35 loaned to them by Mass Street Music while not a spot on copy it has the non-scalloped bracing and three tone bars.   It helps that they are factory  built guitars so do not carry the heftier price tag of others.  Plus, I am looking at used guitars anyway.

Oddly the repair shop I use also builds a small number of acoustics and offers versions of the AJ and L-00.  They base them on originals which had come into the shop for extensive repairs allowing them to measure and document every part.  Only problem I have with them is not only are the expensive but they tend to bling them out with more abalone that I am comfortable with (my comfort level when it comes to abalone is none)

P.S. Thanks for the Crooked Star recommendation.  Their version of the Bacon & Day Senorita made just my jaw drop.  

That Collings will be a Monster!

I am lucky enough to have a Crooked Star Senorita that I bought used with Maple B/S. The CS line is much less blingy with open pore finishes (new they are about 2.5K) than the regular NE line (those go for about 5K brand new). Tony has only built 14 of the CS line as he has to fit them into his schedule. The main priority is the regular NE line.

Let us know if you get the Collings!

 

[zombywoof]

4 minutes ago, bayoubengal1954 said:

That Collings will be a Monster!

I am lucky enough to have a Crooked Star Senorita that I bought used with Maple B/S. The CS line is much less blingy with open pore finishes (new they are about 2.5K) than the regular NE line (those go for about 5K brand new). Tony has only built 14 of the CS line as he has to fit them into his schedule. The main priority is the regular NE line.

Let us know if you get the Collings!

 

 

Do you guys ever stop enabling?  But yeah, that B&D knockoff really got my attention.  Brand new it would cost me about $1K less than the used Collings I am eyeing.  But as my wife loves to say in a couple of months you will never even know you spent the extra money.       

[tpbiii]

Acquiring old extraordinary sounding guitars (and other string instruments) was a near lifetime focus of by late wife and I.  As an acoustic scientist, I am about as focused on sound as possible -- what my Daddy use to call a "bus man's holiday."

For me, the overwhelming focus was/is sound. Times have changed -- in the old days when I searched the county for old excellent sounding guitars, you could go into almost any small shop in America and find maybe 10-20 vintage guitars -- I am talking 1970-2000.  If you did this all year -- I traveled a fair amount for work -- you might find one or two that qualified.  That does not work anymore.

Since we were using vintage instruments as a retirement investment, I had also to be focused on the (often fast changing) market. 

I identified five classed of instruments from an investment point of view:

1. Collectable

2  Players

3. Junque

4. Frankentars

5. Modern

These are separate markets, and you need to understand each market.  The thing that they have in common is they each may included extraordinary sounding instruments -- but their individual value in general were not (solely) based on their sound.  The sound set the desirability -- the market set the price.

Classes 1, 2, and 5 are widely discussed -- the 1936 J-35 I have been demoing on the forum is clearly a class 1; the 1935 Jumbo is a class 2.

But I also have great love for class 3 and 4 instruments -- obviously junque should require less $$ and my late wife and I decorated our life with them.

But if you seek extraordinary sounding pseudo vintage instruments, class 4 can be amazing -- a chance to sometimes achieve vintage sound, tone, and power at much lower costs.  although the "market" is generally unlike the rest of the markets.

A Frankentar is an instrument assembled from old parts -- in many cases vintage parts.  In the South, there is a strong tradition of shade-tree luthiers -- similar in some way to the shade-tree mechanics who use to run moonshine and invented NASCAR.  Many of them are excellent and some of those that were available to me have since become world famous -- Jay Rhyne, Randy Wood,  John Arnold, Wayne Henderson, .... But there is a local guy -- an iconic early flatpicker named John Farley -- who came off the road in maybe 1970 and has since "created" hundreds of some of the best sounding guitars I have ever heard!  He has NO INTEREST in cosmetics -- only sound and playability.  He has put many extraordinary instruments in the hand of young players who would otherwise never have a chance to own anything that good.  If I had never been able to acquire any class 1, 2, 3 or 5 instruments, I could still own extraordinary sound and playability.

Here are a couple of examples.  Here is my Beltone

This guitar has "wintered" sometimes on the South Shore of Nova Scotia, and it is fair to say it is pretty famous: hot pickers gather to play it; it has been played on many shows; it has been used on several CDs; and it has gone on tour to the US and Canada.  It is a John Farley creation.  It is such a kick to play it in a session with good pickers as they realized that there is some extraordinary -- and unknown -- in their presence.

Here are some videos. 





Yea, the other guitar is the 36 AJ.

Here is another -- this one was given to my daughter's band mate Kelly Moore when she was a poor, poor student.

 

Here she is playing in an early practice session with my daughter for their duo, DEAD GIRL SONGS.



If you miss these kinds of stories, IMO you are missing something important.

Maybe we should have a Frankentar tread.

Let's pick,

-Tom

Edited June 30, 2020 by tpbiii

[bayoubengal1954]

1 hour ago, tpbiii said:

Acquiring old extraordinary sounding guitars (and other string instruments) was a near lifetime focus of by late wife and I.  As an acoustic scientist, I am about as focused on sound as possible -- what my Daddy use to call a "bus man's holiday."

For me, the overwhelming focus was/is sound. Times have changed -- in the old days when I searched the county for old excellent sounding guitars, you could go into almost any small shop in America and find maybe 10-20 vintage guitars -- I am talking 1970-2000.  If you did this all year -- I traveled a fair amount for work -- you might find one or two that qualified.  That does not work anymore.

Since we were using vintage instruments as a retirement investment, I had also to be focused on the (often fast changing) market. 

I identified five classed of instruments from an investment point of view:

1. Collectable

2  Players

3. Junque

4. Frankentars

5. Modern

These are separate markets, and you need to understand each market.  The thing that they have in common is they each may included extraordinary sounding instruments -- but their individual value in general were not (solely) based on their sound.  The sound set the desirability -- the market set the price.

Classes 1, 2, and 5 are widely discussed -- the 1936 J-35 I have been demoing on the forum is clearly a class 1; the 1935 Jumbo is a class 2.

But I also have great love for class 3 and 4 instruments -- obviously junque should require less $$ and my late wife and I decorated our life with them.

But if you seek extraordinary sounding pseudo vintage instruments, class 4 can be amazing -- a chance to sometimes achieve vintage sound, tone, and power at much lower costs.  although the "market" is generally unlike the rest of the markets.

A Frankentar is an instrument assembled from old parts -- in many cases vintage parts.  In the South, there is a strong tradition of shade-tree luthiers -- similar in some way to the shade-tree mechanics who use to run moonshine and invented NASCAR.  Many of them are excellent and some of those that were available to me have since become world famous -- Jay Rhyne, Randy Wood,  John Arnold, Wayne Henderson, .... But there is a local guy -- an iconic early flatpicker named John Farley -- who came off the road in maybe 1970 and has since "created" hundreds of some of the best sounding guitars I have ever heard!  He has NO INTEREST in cosmetics -- only sound and playability.  He has put many extraordinary instruments in the hand of young players who would otherwise never have a chance to own anything that good.  If I had never been able to acquire any class 1, 2, 3 or 5 instruments, I could still own extraordinary sound and playability.

Here are a couple of examples.  Here is my Beltone

This guitar has "wintered" sometimes on the South Shore of Nova Scotia, and it is fair to say it is pretty famous: hot pickers gather to play it; it has been played on many shows; it has been used on several CDs; and it has gone on tour to the US and Canada.  It is a John Farley creation.  It is such a kick to play it in a session with good pickers as they realized that there is some extraordinary -- and unknown -- in their presence.

Here are some videos. 





Yea, the other guitar is the 36 AJ.

Here is another -- this one was given to my daughter's band mate Kelly Moore when she was a poor, poor student.

 

Here she is playing in an early practice session with my daughter for their duo, DEAD GIRL SONGS.



If you miss these kinds of stories, IMO you are missing something important.

Maybe we should have a Frankentar thread.

Let's pick,

-Tom

Maybe we should have a Frankentar thread.

Let's pick,

-Tom

________________________________________

That would be fun, Tom!

 

 

[BluesKing777]

On 6/30/2020 at 11:01 PM, zombywoof said:

 That is where I am headed.  One of the top contenders for me is a Collings CJ35.  Based on a late-1930s Gibson J35 loaned to them by Mass Street Music while not a spot on copy it has the non-scalloped bracing and three tone bars.   It helps that they are factory  built guitars so do not carry the heftier price tag of others.  Plus, I am looking at used guitars anyway.

Oddly the repair shop I use also builds a small number of acoustics and offers versions of the AJ and L-00.  They base them on originals which had come into the shop for extensive repairs allowing them to measure and document every part.  Only problem I have with them is not only are the expensive but they tend to bling them out with more abalone that I am comfortable with (my comfort level when it comes to abalone is none)

P.S. Thanks for the Crooked Star recommendation.  Their version of the Bacon & Day Senorita made just my jaw drop.  

 

 

Where are we up to? It is all gone quiet...second thoughts?

Next you will be buying a Tonerite to make the Collings CJ35 sound older than it ever will by playing for a couple of years! 😎  (I know a little about CJ35's because I was interested in a little sister C10-35 with a black top. A couple of years back, I played both while I was there trying to buy strings! They both sat at this shop for years! Too expensive? But then..'poof' - gone! Both! Lotto winner?)

Another popular alternative on certain other forums is the PreWar Guitar Company Slope Shoulder, though a used one could be rare.:

https://www.pre-warguitars.com/model-j

But speaking of Collings, a guitar you probably should own x2 is the Waterloo WL-14 X braced (L-00 ish) and the Waterloo WL-14 Ladder braced (Kalamazoo - ish)! Bill nailed it! Vintage sound in a great build and setup and fabulous neck! No Tonerite needed for mine! I don't understand how Bill did this? And why can't 'you know'?

BluesKing777.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2020 by BluesKing777

[jedzep]

I hear. I just sold my '31 L0 to Retrofret so I could buy the '70 D28S. Turns out I sent a project and got one in return. Still loving the rosewood OM21 so I added the D28. What a huge neck!

A zillion posts ago I was ranting about my allegiance to small bodies. Now I'm playing 2 D's and a J.
 

More 1st world problems.

Edited July 2, 2020 by jedzep

[zombywoof]

12 hours ago, BluesKing777 said:

 

 

Where are we up to? It is all gone quiet...second thoughts?

Next you will be buying a Tonerite to make the Collings CJ35 sound older than it ever will by playing for a couple of years! 😎  (I know a little about CJ35's because I was interested in a little sister C10-35 with a black top. A couple of years back, I played both while I was there trying to buy strings! They both sat at this shop for years! Too expensive? But then..'poof' - gone! Both! Lotto winner?)

Another popular alternative on certain other forums is the PreWar Guitar Company Slope Shoulder, though a used one could be rare.:

https://www.pre-warguitars.com/model-j

But speaking of Collings, a guitar you probably should own x2 is the Waterloo WL-14 X braced (L-00 ish) and the Waterloo WL-14 Ladder braced (Kalamazoo - ish)! Bill nailed it! Vintage sound in a great build and setup and fabulous neck! No Tonerite needed for mine! I don't understand how Bill did this? And why can't 'you know'?

BluesKing777.

 

 

 

 

 

Tonerite  - Too funny!   My daughter is a percussionist so I can always just put a guitar in the room she is practicing in. 

First off, "closing the door" was a bit harsh as at the moment I am waiting on a 70+ year old guitar which the owner is supposed to drop off for me to take on a test drive  when it gets back from the shop.  So do not weep for me.  

The reason I am drawn to the Collings is because as best as I can figure it is the only version of the J35 which got the bracing right.   Even the Pre-War Guitar Company took liberties with it going the scalloped route.  The one I am looking at is used but still not what I would call "cheap."

Also on my short list is a Gibson Stage Deluxe which one of our forum guys is letting go of.  Nice guitar at a very reasonable price.  In many ways it would be the smart move.  But then I stumbled across the latest Gibson version of the Stage Deluxe with the baked red spruce top and no electronics.  The sound clips I have found of it were great at least as much as you can determine from such things.   It would be the most expensive of the three.  My problem is I am apparently easily distracted. .

On the Waterloo guitars the only one I was really tempted by was the old version of I think it was the WLS Deluxe.  I liked it because it was a fairly Plain Jane instrument but had a hand rubbed varnish top.   I have no idea how Collings pulled that one off considering the upcharge for that finish.  No surprisingly, it was only available for the one run.  All in all though I think the guys who built the guitars the Waterloos are based on wished they sounded as good as those Waterlooos.  Hard to get anything other than  the lowest of  lo-fi sound when say your bridge plate is made of spruce and  spans the entire width of the guitar.

[BluesKing777]

 

Just checking, ZW - you know Collings and Waterloo guitars have bolt on necks?

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

[BluesKing777]

13 hours ago, jedzep said:

I hear. I just sold my '31 L0 to Retrofret so I could buy the '70 D28S. Turns out I sent a project and got one in return. Still loving the rosewood OM21 so I added the D28. What a huge neck!

A zillion posts ago I was ranting about my allegiance to small bodies. Now I'm playing 2 D's and a J.
 

More 1st world problems.

 

Selling the L-0?

You are sentenced to watch 3 episodes of The Real Housewives of........

I am also guilty of an allegiance to small bodies but the last 3 buys have been a new Taylor 717e Builders Edition (slope shoulder dread), 2005 Dove from pawn shop, 2002 J50 from pawn shop.........apart from Maton small bodies, there is never much in the way of small guitars here - Dreadsville! Pickings are very slim for used small guitars....zip usually at the pawn shops. I owned 2 dreads in the 80s before I knew they were called that! First small body I ever played was a Clapton Martin in a shop......aha, very expensive but the light switch clicked! The well known alternative for the skint was the.....ha ha....OM21! Not now!

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

[BoSoxBiker]

I had no idea the Pre-War guitar company was 40-minutes up the road. I was actually working in that town back when my Son was born. I used to sneeze 5-10 times getting out of the car during honey-suckle season. 18-24 month backlog on new builds ATM.

[zombywoof]

3 hours ago, BluesKing777 said:

 

Just checking, ZW - you know Collings and Waterloo guitars have bolt on necks?

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

 

 Mossman breathed new life into the use of bolt on necks by high end builders.  I believe the Collings are similar in that they use a mortise and tenon joint.    

The real issue is I cannot lay my hands on any of the guitars I have been looking at so at best have to go on memory.  And that ain't what it used to be,     One of the things which attracts me to the  Collings I am looking at is it has a 2 5/16" string spread at the bridge.  The nut is more generous than the stock Bozeman Gibson but still clocks in at just a hair under 1 3/4."  The  neck carve is the thickest offered by Collings.    On the other hand, the Gibson Stage Deluxe which is also in my sights, while having the skimpier string spread, also has a wider nut and I believe a soft/rounded V neck which would be very much to my liking.  And so it goes.

Anyway, I am going to try and make a call by tomorrow afternoon as I do not want anything shipped and sitting over the weekend.

Edited July 2, 2020 by zombywoof

[tpbiii]

Quote

Mossman breathed new life into the use of bolt on necks by high end builders.  I believe the Collings are similar in that they use a mortise and tenon joint.

 

You can find that in an old guitar.  Consider this -- 1895 Almcrantz.  When I got it (from Norman Blake), it was unplayable as a Spanish style guitar -- he was playing it with a slide and had used it on a couple of CDs.  It has ethereal tone -- but it was built for gut.  It was an 1890s BRW dred -- who knew.

So some years later I took it to Randy Wood to see if he could make it back into a playable guitar.  I was expecting a big bill, with a neck reset and lord only knew what.  It came back as a fine player and the bill was $120 -- what?  Well here was the oddities.  The bridge was bolted on and there was no bridge plate -- you took out the bolts and off came the bridge.  Also the neck was bolted on and was fully adjustable.  And it all worked.  Did I mention it was the one of the lightest guitars I have ever touched -- and it was BRW; one of the heaviest tone woods out there.  Well Randy just adjusted the neck, install a small maple bridgeplate and glued the bridge and plate.

It is an incredibly responsive instrument -- like a giant parlor guitar.  I strung it with super light steel at first, but now I have switched to NylGut.  Still sounds amazing.

Here is a (long) demo with super light steel.  I usually use a 1.4mm flat pick and metal finger picks -- this guy makes more noise with a .3mm flatpick a bare fingers played lightly than a 36 AJ played flat out.  The demo is so long because it stole my soul at the time.

 

 

These demos are with NylGut (synthetic gut -- very low tension)

 

Thus it seems to me that bolt on necks peaked in the 1890s and a lot of tone has been lost since then too.  But that is just me.😉

 

Let's pick,

-Tom

Edited July 2, 2020 by tpbiii

[zombywoof]

1 hour ago, tpbiii said:

 

You can find that in an old guitar.  Consider this -- 1895 Almcrantz.  When I got it (from Norman Blake), it was unplayable as a Spanish style guitar -- he was playing it with a slide and had used it on a couple of CDs.  It has ethereal tone -- but it was built for gut.  It was an 1890s BRW dred -- who knew.

So some years later I took it to Randy Wood to see if he could make it back into a playable guitar.  I was expecting a big bill, with a neck reset and lord only knew what.  It came back as a fine player and the bill was $120 -- what?  Well here was the oddities.  The bridge was bolted on and there was no bridge plate -- you took out the bolts and off came the bridge.  Also the neck was bolted on and was fully adjustable.  And it all worked.  Did I mention it was the one of the lightest guitars I have ever touched -- and it was BRW; one of the heaviest tone woods out there.  Well Randy just adjusted the neck, install a small maple bridgeplate and glued the bridge and plate.

It is an incredibly responsive instrument -- like a giant parlor guitar.  I strung it with super light steel at first, but now I have switched to NylGut.  Still sounds amazing.

Here is a (long) demo with super light steel.  I usually use a 1.4mm flat pick and metal finger picks -- this guy makes more noise with a .3mm flatpick a bare fingers played lightly than a 36 AJ played flat out.  The demo is so long because it stole my soul at the time.

 

 

These demos are with NylGut (synthetic gut -- very low tension)

 

Thus it seems to me that bolt on necks peaked in the 1890s and a lot of tone has been lost since then too.  But that is just me.😉

 

Let's pick,

-Tom

 

Kay Krafts, of course, also had the Zorzi bolt on adjustable necks.

[zombywoof]

The plot sickens.  I just ran across a 1994 Gibson Centennial Smeck Radio Grande.  

[j45nick]

1 hour ago, zombywoof said:

The plot sickens.  I just ran across a 1994 Gibson Centennial Smeck Radio Grande.  

You're in trouble now.

[tpbiii]

Quote

The plot sickens.  I just ran across a 1994 Gibson Centennial Smeck Radio Grande.

I'd be interested in what it is like if you get it.  I have one of each, but unlike all the Martins I have never really come across a new Radio Grande on the ground to play and listen too. The originals were EIRW, so I bet they got that right.  They claim scalloped braces,  which mine -- a 35 -- does not have.  Unlike a lot of vintage models people like Steve Swan liked to scallop the old ones.  Not my cup of tea.  Good luck.

 

Best,

-Tom

[zombywoof]

1 hour ago, tpbiii said:

I'd be interested in what it is like if you get it.  I have one of each, but unlike all the Martins I have never really come across a new Radio Grande on the ground to play and listen too. The originals were EIRW, so I bet they got that right.  They claim scalloped braces,  which mine -- a 35 -- does not have.  Unlike a lot of vintage models people like Steve Swan liked to scallop the old ones.  Not my cup of tea.  Good luck.

 

Best,

-Tom

 

Coincidentally I have found a version of the Smeck that has non-scalloped bracing.  If I move on it, it will be tonight.