Thundergod Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Hi guys, i have written about this in numerous threads, but as i have lots of things to say and am really worried about this, i decided to start a thread about it and see if some of you have any ideas and comments, maybe gibson will hear us and do something. First of all, i live in ecuador, and we dont have this kind of problem as the higher end guitar market here is very limited, most people buy squiers and they think they have a "real fender" WOW!!! and they feel completely satisfied with it and never again make plans for another guitar. Of course we have our version of ebay, a latin american portal that is afiliated to ebay: mercadolibre.com ... where you can find everything... overpriced. People in mercadolibre.com will try to sell you an epiphone LP standard for 1000 bucks! so they dont need fake gibsons to rip idiots off. I havent experienced the problem first hand, but it pains me to see in this forum, how each day theres people getting ripped off by this fake gibson sellers, from guys that saved for years to see their money spent in a cheap replica, to a guy that exchanged his authentic les paul for a custom to a guy of whom he didnt even know the real name, adress, telephone number... the list goes on an on... Now i dont intend to sound harsh, but, trading guitars with a complete stranger that tells you to meet him in a public location???!!! WTF MAN? if you didnt love your guitar you could always have sent her to me.. i would have given her a nice home... So as i have said before, and as LPcollector said too (and i quote him as he said it bettr than me) LPcollector wrote "...it's more of a "buyer beware" scenario. Sure, counterfiting is a problem for all of us and the internet gives thieves more info to make their scams more believable...........but the internet gives buyers more info too. ... It's my feeling that a buyer should do more reasearch and learn to spot a fake before he/she invests their hard earned money. A knowlegable buyer is the real way to stop these counterfiters. If nobody bought a fake LP, then the bad guys would quit making fake LP's. Besides, if you buy a new one from an authorized Gibson dealer, you won't have to be concerned with this..........J/k!" Well yes, thats the bigger part of the problem: people buying an expensive NEW guitar on ebay from a shop they have never heard about, that also is located outside the states (if located in china why would you by there?). There are people that buy, or trade their originals for, used guitars on ebay, at prices rivaling that of new unused guitars. Why in hell would you do that? sometimes when i read those threads i feel like i am reading posts by mercadolibre.com users... paying double the price of a new unused item for a used, and beat the **** out of, one. Why? WHY!!!??? Isnt it more safe and practical to go to the nearest gibson dealer and buy a new one at the right price? Can we have a "right price thread" so that people can look at it and not go and buy a used fake at 2K when the original costs 1700 new? If we had that thread they still would buy first and regret later. Why? because they do have that info on the net, it is as easy as looking for the guitar you like in guitarcenter or musiciensfriend... So really... do some research before you buy anything... if someno offered me a used computer, i would search all info about it and how much it costs new and where i can buy it from an authorized dealer. Then i make the guy an offer if i am still interested... so guys please do the same.. it is easy to whine about how you got ripped but once you get ripped theres nothing anyone in here can do. On top of all this are the fake guitar makers... they are getting better by the minute! i have seen some fakes that are pretty close to the original, and very very hard to aknowledge as fakes For example: Sylond wrote: Ok now, this is scary... http://www.dhgate.com/p_ff80808116f559f9011710ed291464f4.html Just look at the pictures. And the ebay sellers are getting wiser, as before when you told them they were selling a fake, they cancelled the auction and waited a day to republish the item... now they give you this kind of answer, and i quote a message posted by Flight959 about the response he goit from a guy selling as a real custom shop a guitar listed at 249 on one of those chinese webs: Flight959 wrote: I told him it was a fake and asked him if anyone else had contacted him telling him it was a fake. This is his response. Hey, No, no one has said a word, Now this is a custom paitn job, not a Custom shop guitar. And that's exactly what my auction says. "Custom shop quilt top" that is all one frase. Plus I have had 4 gibson customs and everyone of them match up fine, The "Gibson" logo changes from time to time, but that is because they are all hand mad, or manufactured. Like sometimes the "o" in Gibs"o"n is closed sometimes it is not. And the font is too large... REALLY. I think you are wrong sir. What is TRC? And the serial number states that it was actually the 2005 and it was the 17th guitar pressed for that day. The trust rod cover has 2 screws the gibson logo is straight.. Please stop harassing me. I know what I payed for this peace and I know what should come out of it. "02005517" Thanks for your time, -Brandon Now this is scary... noww this fakes dont resemble gibsons, they look the same, 3screw TRCs are gone... epi bridges are gone too! And the sellers are getting wiser too! And now the most disturbing part, what if, by discussing details about how a to spot a fake we are giving this counterfeiters tips for making better guitars and even serial numbers? This fake guitar escalade could even explain why there is so much whinning on the net (musiciansfriends, zzounds and guitarcenters reviews to name a few). Lots of these reviewers say "i didnt buy my guitar from this store/site, but want to make a review so that other people wont buy this overpriced piece of ****"... so, they didnt buy from an authorized dealer (almost all of them have a review place on their sites), maybe they bought from ebay or from someone they dont even knew before, and they have fakes, that obviously don put up to gibsons´ fame. Im sure im leaving something out so you guys say it... Thanks for reading and sorry about so larga a post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergod Posted March 8, 2008 Author Share Posted March 8, 2008 just found one in "mercadolibre.com" ... this guy is selling an epiphone G-400 that sells here for 299 bucks, at $1200 claiming it is (it is in the auction title) an "Gibson custom shop epiphone SG". In the description he says it is a limited edition epiphone made by gibson custom shop. Has a couple of small pictures of it, the pics have a tag on them that reveals they are from a catalog of a store in argentina jajaja. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FennRx Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 this really isn't gibson's problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergod Posted March 8, 2008 Author Share Posted March 8, 2008 you think? if they were faking my cabs i would call it my problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakatone Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 you think? if they were faking my cabs i would call it my problem... right on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLiveSoundGuy Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 I hate to say it, but this is one time I'm going to have to straddle the fence. I think it is a problem for Gibson since it jacks with their reputation and good name that they have worked very hard to build over the years. Plus it rips off those of us who can afford it the least. The musician. Yet at the same time I want to say this is the very reason to buy only from an "Authorized Gibson Dealer." If you even have the slightest suspicion a guitar is a fake, it really is your responsibility to keep walking. There are a thousand "old sayings" that deal with this. Caveat Emptor... or "Let the buyer beware." "If it sounds too good to be true...than it probably is." The list goes on. If you don't buy the counterfeits, then there is no market for them. It truly sucks for all of us, but I'm afraid their really is no solution. For every one that gets exposed, there a thousand waiting in the wings. I think a lot of us have been ripped off at one time or another. I know I have. In the end, if you like the instrument, if it feels good, and sounds good to you, then enjoy it, and don't worry about any monies you may, or may not have lost. That said, I am a player. I may collect them, but I don't collect them for monetary value. If I did, I may very well feel differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarJunkie Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 I'm not saying that Gibson isn't concerned with the whole issue of counterfeits, but it actually works out in their favor. They "warn" consumers about this terrible problem of fake Gibsons. In other words, make sure anyone even thinking about buying a Gibson knows about all the fakes lurking out there and how they're soooo good, that even some experts are finding them hard to distinguish from the real thing. Then they say, more or less... "We're doing our best to combat the problem (wink, wink), but your safest option is to buy a shiny new Gibson from an authorized dealer. Don't risk your hard earned money buying a used Gibson (which we don't make a penny off of) from some scary person you don't even know." Why would Gibson want to get rid of all the fakes? Then it would be safe to buy used or off of ebay again. Gibson doesn't make any money from those sales. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this. Gibson is in business to sell guitars and make money. This just encourages buyers to seek out authorized retailers. If the fakes were gone and it was 100% safe to buy used again, would you buy a new LP Standard from musiciansfriend for $2299 or a used one from craigslist for $1500? Which one do you think Gibson wants you to buy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicked Twisted Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 hey, thunder god, i called that guy bout his green quilt top custom being fake and he sent me back an email with the same bs about it not being a fake and him sayin it had a custom paint job, not a custom shop. the pix he posted were showin a custom shop sticker in some pix and not in others. he knew it was a fake i bet. sold it to some poor guy for over 2 grand. had to be fake, it had a rosewood board, grovers, and was brand new with no case, but a 2005? I contacted the buyer and told him i thought he had been duped, and he wrote back that after lookin at the pictures closer he agreed. i suggested he contact gibson about any legal recorse, it is a felony to sell counterfiet goods in the us, wether u know they are fake or not, its just hard to get the gov. off there ***. i would like to tell every one to go to mymusia.com and look at the fakes there. there are lots of other websites selling what apper to be really good fakes. i wouldnt by any guitar by mail noewadays!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FennRx Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 you think? if they were faking my cabs i would call it my problem... l want you or anyone else here to explain to me what you think gibson can really do about the problem save for talking about it. oh it's their reputation....blah blah blah. guess what? gibson has NO legal authority to do anything because our laws do not apply in china. you act has if gibson has some sort of governmental ability to pass laws or prosecute the offenders. while i agree that it sucks that people are making knockoffs' date=' what can you really do? and as i have repeated [i']ad nauseaum[/i]....if you buy a fake Gibson off of eBay, that's YOUR problem not Gibson's because YOU were stupid enough to think that you could get a Les Paul Custom for 800 bucks. this whole thing pisses me off because no one wants to take any responsibility for their own greed and incompetence. If you buy off of ebay or from a guy selling stuff out of the trunk of his car, you get what you deserve. i couldn't care less about people getting ripped off because it was their responsibility to do their homework before making a purchase, not Gibson's. can we please move on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spot Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 l want you or anyone else here to explain to me what you think gibson can really do about the problem save for talking about it. oh it's their reputation....blah blah blah. guess what? gibson has NO legal authority to do anything because our laws do not apply in china. you act has if gibson has some sort of governmental ability to pass laws or prosecute the offenders. while i agree that it sucks that people are making knockoffs' date=' what can you really do? and as i have repeated [i']ad nauseaum[/i]....if you buy a fake Gibson off of eBay, that's YOUR problem not Gibson's because YOU were stupid enough to think that you could get a Les Paul Custom for 800 bucks. this whole thing pisses me off because no one wants to take any responsibility for their own greed and incompetence. If you buy off of ebay or from a guy selling stuff out of the trunk of his car, you get what you deserve. i couldn't care less about people getting ripped off because it was their responsibility to do their homework before making a purchase, not Gibson's. can we please move on? The problem is that fakes made in CHINA will soon be so good that even Gibson will have a tough time telling them apart. They will be made in similar factories that already make their Epiphone Guitars, with similar machinery and raw materials. Every time a good fake will be sold, Gibson lose a customer and a Sale....Just look at what is happening already in Luxury Goods!!!!! Believe, Gibson are VERY concerned about this is issue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FennRx Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 being "concerned" and "doing something" to stop them are two very different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archer993 Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 If Tiffany & Company win their lawsuit (that pertains to counterfeit Tiffany products being sold on eBAy) against eBay then fakes and crooked eBay sellers will have a harder time. I have been very active on eBay for the past 9 years and I can tell you the fraud is escalating, across all products offered, at an exponential rate. eBay really doesn't care except when it costs them money as in Paypal or seller/buyer fee refunds. As many of us know there are excellent Les Pauls on eBay for good prices and forums like this and Gibson's page on frauds are out best defense. We obviously need to strengthen our defenses - whether it be through vigilante action or whatever means we have available and by urging Gibson to do more consumer education vis its web site. One point I do want to make is that doing business with an "Authorized" Gibson dealer is not necessarily a guarantee of not getting ripped off. I just got taken for a ride by a dealer in Oregon - details will follow in the weeks to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergod Posted March 9, 2008 Author Share Posted March 9, 2008 l want you or anyone else here to explain to me what you think gibson can really do about the problem save for talking about it. oh it's their reputation....blah blah blah. guess what? gibson has NO legal authority to do anything because our laws do not apply in china. you act has if gibson has some sort of governmental ability to pass laws or prosecute the offenders. while i agree that it sucks that people are making knockoffs' date=' what can you really do? [/quote'] Yes they can do something, they can get the assholes selling them in the states arrested. As you can see, a lot of the sellers on ebay are selling this stuff based in the united states, not in china. They buy from china and sell in the states, that is way worst than just making them and selling them at $400 and as i have repeated ad nauseaum....if you buy a fake Gibson off of eBay' date=' that's [b']YOUR[/b] problem not Gibson's because YOU were stupid enough to think that you could get a Les Paul Custom for 800 bucks. this whole thing pisses me off because no one wants to take any responsibility for their own greed and incompetence. If you buy off of ebay or from a guy selling stuff out of the trunk of his car, you get what you deserve. i couldn't care less about people getting ripped off because it was their responsibility to do their homework before making a purchase, not Gibson's. can we please move on? And yes... as i said before, the china men are seling them for $400, you (or I) should be very stupid to go off and think we can buy a les paul custom for $400... i agree with you 100% there. But this ebayers are selling them in the states for 2K or more! so there is no stupidity involved other than the requiered to go and spend 2K on ebay (i wouldnt) for something you have not played or seen in person, from someone you dont know **** about. So in that i agree with you 75% And i am ready to move on as it is not my problem... i just grew tired of reading so much whining about getting ripped off here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergod Posted March 9, 2008 Author Share Posted March 9, 2008 One point I do want to make is that doing business with an "Authorized" Gibson dealer is not necessarily a guarantee of not getting ripped off. I just got taken for a ride by a dealer in Oregon - details will follow in the weeks to come. Really??? i would like to read more about that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archer993 Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Really??? i would like to read more about that... Oh yeah! It's an ugly situation concerning a Jimmy Page Signature #1. I'm out thousands but the dealer will pay a very heavy price when I'm finished with legalities and negative public relations. Stay tuned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergod Posted March 9, 2008 Author Share Posted March 9, 2008 my god... a jimmy page signature... and it was a fake? dont even want to know how much you paid for number 1! But please keep us informed! Is it the one in your avatar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archer993 Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 my god... a jimmy page signature... and it was a fake? dont even want to know how much you paid for number 1! But please keep us informed! Is it the one in your avatar? Not a fake, just badly misrepresented as far as condition. It's a Page #1 2004 model, not the Black Beauty in the Avatar - that one is good. I recently sawn an Epiphone Jimmy Page fake on ebay complete with push pull pot splitters - made up as Epiphone never did that and also a Gibson Jimmy Page #1 fake on eBay about a month ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydra26 Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Well, while it's a hot topic, I gotta think, given what little I know about business in the free market, that Gibson, although not happy about all the fakes out there does not have the resources to combat all the fraud. Remember that whole thing about lawsuit era guitars and headstock shapes? I can't imagine that was cheap. Any of you who have ever had to go to court or god forbid had to deal with a divorce, know how expensive lawyers can be. Gibson, while a large producer of fine electric guitars, is not, in the grand scheme of things a huge mega corporation spanning a myriad of industries. They don't have a bottomless pool of funds to throw at legal battles. When it comes down to it, a fake on ebay, is between the buyer and the seller. Ebay, while they'll pay lip service, will not do anything to jeopardize their commission from the sale. Gibson, while it may be irked to hell, has no legal authority over someone in China. Remember folks, China is another country. US Laws do NOT apply there. Worse yet, they're a communist country, they have totalitarian control over their own industry and could go so far as to subsidize counterfeiting activities and there's nothing anyone can do about it. For this ebay problem to stop though, bottom line is ebay has to be interested in stopping it voluntarily and I suspect that 1) they are not, and 2) they've probably gotten bigger than Gibson at this point and can afford fancier lawyers. For the counterfeiting problem to stop in general, they have to become very undesireable. For that to happen, penalties need to be stiffer, more convictions need to be made or the gibson brand name has to become so tarnished that as a group they become undesireable. Given the history of guitars like the les paul, ES-335 et al and the vintage market, I don't see that happening. The fakers will just start relicing their product and selling them as vintage. China stole nuclear weapons technoilogy from us and we did nothing. We still trade with them, because it's expedient for big business and nets the largest profit margins. As well, we as a group don't buy domestic much anymore. The same products can be had much cheaper if they're made in shanghai than duluth. We don't seem to care that the shanghai product only lasts a few years, it's just a toaster and it was so cheap i'll jsut buy another one. The quality gap is closing as well. But, along with that, the price gap is starting to shrink too. Only thing to do is ride it out. It'll all stabilize in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FennRx Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Well' date=' while it's a hot topic, I gotta think, given what little I know about business in the free market, that Gibson, although not happy about all the fakes out there does not have the resources to combat all the fraud. Remember that whole thing about lawsuit era guitars and headstock shapes? I can't imagine that was cheap. Any of you who have ever had to go to court or god forbid had to deal with a divorce, know how expensive lawyers can be. Gibson, while a large producer of fine electric guitars, is not, in the grand scheme of things a huge mega corporation spanning a myriad of industries. They don't have a bottomless pool of funds to throw at legal battles. When it comes down to it, a fake on ebay, is between the buyer and the seller. Ebay, while they'll pay lip service, will not do anything to jeopardize their commission from the sale. Gibson, while it may be irked to hell, has no legal authority over someone in China. Remember folks, China is another country. US Laws do NOT apply there. Worse yet, they're a communist country, they have totalitarian control over their own industry and could go so far as to subsidize counterfeiting activities and there's nothing anyone can do about it. For this ebay problem to stop though, bottom line is ebay has to be interested in stopping it voluntarily and I suspect that 1) they are not, and 2) they've probably gotten bigger than Gibson at this point and can afford fancier lawyers. For the counterfeiting problem to stop in general, they have to become very undesireable. For that to happen, penalties need to be stiffer, more convictions need to be made or the gibson brand name has to become so tarnished that as a group they become undesireable. Given the history of guitars like the les paul, ES-335 et al and the vintage market, I don't see that happening. The fakers will just start relicing their product and selling them as vintage. China stole nuclear weapons technoilogy from us and we did nothing. We still trade with them, because it's expedient for big business and nets the largest profit margins. As well, we as a group don't buy domestic much anymore. The same products can be had much cheaper if they're made in shanghai than duluth. We don't seem to care that the shanghai product only lasts a few years, it's just a toaster and it was so cheap i'll jsut buy another one. The quality gap is closing as well. But, along with that, the price gap is starting to shrink too. Only thing to do is ride it out. It'll all stabilize in the end. [/quote'] well said. finally someone who sees my point. i'm so tired of the "gibson, do something!" routine. it is childish and ignorant. the only reason the "lawsuit guitar" thing happened was because companies like Ibanez were selling the guitars IN THE USA AND THEREFORE SUBJECT TO THE LAWS THE US GOVERNMENT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergod Posted March 10, 2008 Author Share Posted March 10, 2008 First of all, I know they cant do anything about china production... its not like their cowboy president will go and nuke china because of counterfeit guitars and stuff (and they do have mass destruction weapons :P ). But gibson can do something about so called amercians selling them from inside the united states, in fact they have done something in the past... i ve read articles in the papers about people going to jail for selling fake guitars, and gibson having an active role on those aprehensions. Jailing those idiots shouldnt cost much... but as some of you have pointed out ebay may have more money and fancier lawyers... Ebay staff that alows fake stuff to be sold there should face charges and go to jail too, as many times they know thay are taking part of this kind of scam and they don nothing. And for the record, i dont think many of us here are children or ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLiveSoundGuy Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Ebay staff that alows fake stuff to be sold there should face charges and go to jail too' date=' as many times they know thay are taking part of this kind of scam and they don nothing.[/quote'] I'll agree with that statement. (the charges part anyway) Ebay is a user driven portal just like Napster was a user driven portal. Napster had to completely change the way they did business in order to continue doing business because of users illegal activities on it's site. Perhaps Ebay should be forced to adhere to the same legal scrutiny. I'm no lawyer but I think the exact same arguments would apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod B Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 First, I'll say caveat emptor. It is the responsibility of the buyer to ensure that he or she is buying what the seller purports it to be. The sale of illegal guitar copies requires two elements: a crook and a fool. I would never buy a guitar sight unseen from a private party unless I had a way to independently verify its provenance. Most of the time that's not practical or even possible. You have almost no recourse, or the recourse is so prohibitively expensive and time-consuming that you just have to take your lumps. I'm sure that Gibson would love to halt the production of illegal clones, but they have a limit on how much money they can expend on chasing eBay auctions. But the invasion of the Asian clones is really just hitting its stride, and I'd wager that in a few years Gibson will wish that they had been more proactive at this stage. Especially when the really badly made clones start falling apart and Gibson's rep starts to suffer. If anyone from Gibson is listening, a simple way to eliminate counterfeits from the current production year onward would be to imbed a digital encrypted ID chip within the body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLiveSoundGuy Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I read somewhere on here Zaphod B, that they are putting a chip, I believe someone said in the neck somewhere. The technology does exist. I'm not sure if Gibson is actually doing it though. It was just rumored here in the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod B Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I read somewhere on here Zaphod B' date=' that they are putting a chip, I believe someone said in the neck somewhere. The technology does exist. I'm not sure if Gibson is actually doing it though. It was just rumored here in the forums. [/quote']Right, seems like I read about it for some other product as well. ID chips don't have to be limited to new production guitars. Gibson could sponsor a program whereby Gibby owners and repair shops could, for example, get a free chip from Gibson with the consumer paying for the labor to stick it somewhere (like, a very small hole underneath a pickup, and epoxy the chip in...... My corporate ID badge has a very small active chip in the corner that can be read by proximity readers, for door entry and stuff like that. We've been using them for years. I'm surprised that more companies aren't using them for counterfeit spoofing. They're dirt cheap and tiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deletedaccount Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 well said. finally someone who sees my point. i'm so tired of the "gibson' date=' do something!" routine. it is childish and ignorant. the only reason the "lawsuit guitar" thing happened was because companies like Ibanez were selling the guitars IN THE USA AND THEREFORE SUBJECT TO THE LAWS THE US GOVERNMENT. [/quote'] This isn't one the topic of your post, but Ibanez is like Fender, just without all the different branches, like squier. And even then the foreign made cheap Ibanezes are decent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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