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Olive

Another fake vintage Dove?

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Hi everyone,

I bought that old guitar from a man in Montréal in may 2020. He told me that old 1967 Gibson Dove was in his family from decades and decided to sell it cause he was playing electric only. What a  liar and a thief. 

After more then 5 months trying to find some informations on my guitar, I contacted Gibson and they told me it's not a real Gibson ... Yes I bought a fake. It's a very nice guitar with a beautiful sound but it's a fake! Probably made between 1970 and 1975.

The only thing is the brand name on the headstock. From what I saw on the net, all the Japan / China copies of that period have there name on the headstock. Mine have the very «real» Gibson on the headstock. In fact, I cant find any copy of that era with the «Gibson» inlay name on the headstock.

My question is who made that copy? 

Full photo of my guitar is in my other intruce yourself topic.

 

Thanks

Olive


 

dove2.jpg

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11 hours ago, Olive said:

Full photo of my guitar is in my other intruce yourself topic.

Thanks

Olive

Yep. 'Couldn't find it up there, either.

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1 hour ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

Here is the pic from his Intro post.

Tanks. Did not know that there was more than one Introduce Yourself section.

26 minutes ago, Olive said:

Thank you M. Pepper.

Here is a the serial number and the waffles tuners [not original}

Nice looking waffles. Usually people do a good bit of research during their Dove hunt, as they're at the high end of the Gibson line. Not a Dove-ist here, but those who are would always want to study a close up pic of the soundhole label. . . a label sitting on what appears to be mahogany, and not the standard Dove maple.

Edited by 62burst

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Thank you 62burst.

As I wrote, i am pretty sure now it is a copy😤

That guitar was made somewhere between 1970 and 1975.

My question is : In the 70th,  who made those copies with the very real brand name «Gibson» inlay on the headstock? It is probably a japan copy but in that period of time, from what I saw on the net, all copies had the name of the maker [Ibanez, Pearl, Lyle, Penco, etc} on the headstock and not the «Gibson» brand name.

 

Edited by Olive

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36 minutes ago, Olive said:

My question is : In the 70th,  who made those copies with the very real brand name «Gibson» inlay on the headstock? It is probably a japan copy but in that period of time, from what I saw on the net, all copies had the name of the maker [Ibanez, Pearl, Lyle, Penco, etc} on the headstock and not the «Gibson» brand name.

 

Oh, there are plenty of "clones" made with the Gibson logo- not just from China, or India,  and many here actually enjoy studying not the more obvious differences, like less expensive woods used, or different bridges or 3-hole truss rod covers, but the more subtle differences of the inlaid logo on the headstock, or the execution of the soundhole label.

Edited by 62burst

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If a company puts their name on a headstock of a Gibson-looking guitar it is a "knockof."  If they put Gibson's name on it it is a counterfeit/fake.   That is a fairly big difference.  And yes, fakes are out there.  And some of them are pretty darn good.   

The 6 digit serial number starting with "0" seems to be correct for a Gibson built in 1967.  What catches my eye though is the truss rod access on the headstock.   I would expect to see a peaked cut out as well as a two screw TRC.  I also would expect the guitar to have a Tune-O-Matic ABR bridge although 1967 I believe was towards the tail end of that feature.  I am not all that up on post-1960 Gibson six strings.  

Edited by zombywoof

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The headstock appears to have a veneer, which, if true, means that the original name might still exist beneath it.

If Olive is that interested in learning the truth about his guitar, he might consider a bit of cosmetic work being performed on the headstock to see what if anything lurks beneath the topcoat.

That will affect neither the sound nor the value of the instrument.

RBSinTo

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Great.

Do you have any pic of the peaked cut out to see the differences with mine ? 

about the bridge, i found Doves were equipped with tune-o-matic until 1968. In 1969, it was changed for the adjustable with 2 screws and in 1970 by the non-adjustable sadle but i'm not 100% sure of those informations. And you're right, the bridge is not flat.

There's a dot on the «i» on the logo. In my searches, i read the dot was remove between 1967 and 1972 on the logo. Mine have a dot.

Those points and the overall condition of the guitar [fret wear, cracks in the vernish, patine on the binding] made me believe it was made between 1970 and 1975.

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26 minutes ago, RBSinTo said:

The headstock appears to have a veneer, which, if true, means that the original name might still exist beneath it.

If Olive is that interested in learning the truth about his guitar, he might consider a bit of cosmetic work being performed on the headstock to see what if anything lurks beneath the topcoat.

That will affect neither the sound nor the value of the instrument.

RBSinTo

I suspect that is the original name on the headstock. After all, it also has a Gibson-like label inside, so it was intended to deceive from the day it was built.

It would be nice to see a close-up of the label. Faking the label is the easiest job of all.

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Also the last owner sold it to me with a 2 screws TRC. I took it off at home and realized it was a 3 holes truss rod cover. I did some search to find Gibson Dove of that era with a 3 screws truss rod cover and I found :

https://reverb.com/item/20209419-gibson-dove-1975-sunburst

https://www.pbase.com/wonderotter/image/94237782/original

https://reverb.com/uk/item/1343002-gibson-dove-1975-truss-rod-cover

 

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If a replica, it's a pretty good job.  And if it sounds good, fine. Yet a strange flier to have around.

Here's another faker - an Alvarez

"Lawsuit Gibson" 1970's Alvarez Dove. It's called a Lawsuit Gibson because Alvarez was sued by Gibson for making the same exact guitar. It sounds just like a Gibson.

Thx. sarge

Edited by E-minor7

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27 minutes ago, j45nick said:

I suspect that is the original name on the headstock. After all, it also has a Gibson-like label inside, so it was intended to deceive from the day it was built.

It would be nice to see a close-up of the label. Faking the label is the easiest job of all.

I cant download more pics. I received a message from the site dont know why. Sorry

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15 minutes ago, E-minor7 said:

If a replica, it's a pretty good job.  And if it sounds good, fine. Yet a strange flier to have around.

Here's another faker - an Alvarez

"Lawsuit Gibson" 1970's Alvarez Dove. It's called a Lawsuit Gibson because Alvarez was sued by Gibson for making the same exact guitar. It sounds just like a Gibson.

Thx. sarge

Thx. looks very much like mine [pick guard and bridge}. But the logo is Lyle and I cant find any fake of that era with the Gibson logo.

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22 minutes ago, Olive said:

Thx. looks very much like mine [pick guard and bridge}. But the logo is Lyle and I cant find any fake of that era with the Gibson logo.

 

If you had done a search on this forum for "Fake Gibsons" you would have found some info as it has been discussed with some rules of thumb (such as how may TRC screws) noted.  Gibson itself has put up some info but they tend to center on guitars such as Les Pauls.

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3 hours ago, Olive said:

Great.

Do you have any pic of the peaked cut out to see the differences with mine ? 

about the bridge, i found Doves were equipped with tune-o-matic until 1968. In 1969, it was changed for the adjustable with 2 screws and in 1970 by the non-adjustable sadle but i'm not 100% sure of those informations. And you're right, the bridge is not flat.

There's a dot on the «i» on the logo. In my searches, i read the dot was remove between 1967 and 1972 on the logo. Mine have a dot.

Those points and the overall condition of the guitar [fret wear, cracks in the vernish, patine on the binding] made me believe it was made between 1970 and 1975.

If you can't post another photo, can you give a detailed description of the label, including every bit of lettering on it, including whether anything on it is handwritten?

The position and configuration of the trussrod pocket on your guitar requires a three-screw trussrod cover, since there is no wood between the lower edge of the pocket and the  string nut. These three-screw covers were apparently used at some point in the early/mid 1970s, which is outside my period of expertise.

From the photos, it isn't even obvious how you could adjust the trussrod. Can you see a trussrod nut inside that pocket? In any case, that does not appear to be a late-60s trussrod and cover arrangement, so a late 60s Gibson-built guitar seems out of the question despite the oval orange label, which says pre-1970.

That serial number on the back of the headstock could be 1967, or around 1973. But in 1973, there would have been "made in USA" stamped below it, and the guitar would have a different label.

The orange oval label was last used in 1969 or 1970. Apparently, a lot of blank orange oval labels disappeared into the grey market when Gibson stopped using that label  and replaced it with either  purple/black/white "harlequin" label or the orange/white rectangular label. The exact sequence between those two later labels isn't clear to me, but I believe the orange/white labels preceded the harlequin label.

Incidentally, the best way to post photos here is using a hosting service such as Imgur.

It would really take a fair number of detailed photos and structural inspections to be perfectly clear what you have here, but who built it might never be resolved.

 

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1 hour ago, j45nick said:

If you can't post another photo, can you give a detailed description of the label, including every bit of lettering on it, including whether anything on it is handwritten?

The position and configuration of the trussrod pocket on your guitar requires a three-screw trussrod cover, since there is no wood between the lower edge of the pocket and the  string nut. These three-screw covers were apparently used at some point in the early/mid 1970s, which is outside my period of expertise.

From the photos, it isn't even obvious how you could adjust the trussrod. Can you see a trussrod nut inside that pocket? In any case, that does not appear to be a late-60s trussrod and cover arrangement, so a late 60s Gibson-built guitar seems out of the question despite the oval orange label, which says pre-1970.

That serial number on the back of the headstock could be 1967, or around 1973. But in 1973, there would have been "made in USA" stamped below it, and the guitar would have a different label.

The orange oval label was last used in 1969 or 1970. Apparently, a lot of blank orange oval labels disappeared into the grey market when Gibson stopped using that label  and replaced it with either  purple/black/white "harlequin" label or the orange/white rectangular label. The exact sequence between those two later labels isn't clear to me, but I believe the orange/white labels preceded the harlequin label.

Incidentally, the best way to post photos here is using a hosting service such as Imgur.

It would really take a fair number of detailed photos and structural inspections to be perfectly clear what you have here, but who built it might never be resolved.

 

 

Thanks J45nick.

1/ Informations on the label

Style : handwritten DOVE (lead pencil)

Gibson : stamp of a date 11 OCT 67B

Number is hereby : handwritten same serial number as on the headstock (also with a lead pensil)

Gibson INC.

Kalamazoo, Michigan,

U.S.A.

The date is stamp inside the guitar to a couple of other places. What is the meaning of the letter B? Would it mean it is a B-stock? I dont know.

The label is the oval orange and seem like the style / Gibson / serial number were blank and fill by hand with a lead pencil or a stamp of a date.

 

2/ The trussrod

The nut is accessible with a metric Allen key of 5 mm. 

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The trussrod utilizing a metric Allen wrench tells you all you need to know.  This guitar is a fake & was not built in Kalamazoo by Gibson.

Where it actually was built is rather a moot point.  If you ever choose to sell it, simply be honest & list it as a ‘Gibson Copy’.

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30 minutes ago, Olive said:

 

Thanks J45nick.

1/ Informations on the label

Style : handwritten DOVE (lead pencil)

Gibson : stamp of a date 11 OCT 67B

Number is hereby : handwritten same serial number as on the headstock (also with a lead pensil)

Gibson INC.

Kalamazoo, Michigan,

U.S.A.

The date is stamp inside the guitar to a couple of other places. What is the meaning of the letter B? Would it mean it is a B-stock? I dont know.

The label is the oval orange and seem like the style / Gibson / serial number were blank and fill by hand with a lead pencil or a stamp of a date.

 

2/ The trussrod

The nut is accessible with a metric Allen key of 5 mm. 

 

I have never seen a Gibson with the date stamp on the label or in fact anywhere.  The second line which reads GIBSON: in this case would be followed by "Guitar."   

Edited by zombywoof

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Along with the allen wrench issue, there is no center back brace, and the wood does not appear to be maple, as it should be.  The bridge is also clearly incorrect, and tends to indicate that the guitar may be a modified Japanese copy era instrument, intentionally meant to squeeze maximum profit from a fake.

So sorry this happened to you.

  • Thanks 1

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thank you everybody.

As i wrote in my introduction post, i know for sure now then it is a copy.

But the main question remain. Nobody know any guitar company maker in the 70th who would put the logo of Gibson on the headstock and ingrave a serial number very close from the Gibson serial number style.

Is it important : no. Is it fun to know : yes

That's fine for me. It was a pleasure to talk to all of you.

Olive from Gatineau, province of Québec, Canada 

Edited by Olive

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As Zomby notes, Gibson did not (and does not) stamp or write a date of manufacture on the label, or anywhere in or on the guitar. 

In the early 1970s, US builders could not keep up with the demand for guitars. The country was flooded with low-cost clones and copies, primarily from Asia. Some of these were high-quality instruments, others were not.

Some Japanese instrument builder produced high-quality near-clones under their own names.

If you got one that plays and sounds good, you are lucky, but I hope you didn't pay much for it, because they generally have little value.

By the way, that trend continues today, and Asia is still the source, although typically different parts of Asia compared to their 1970s counterparts.

 

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The seller's name was James Savey. His phone number is/was 438-869-9231 in Montréal. I'm sure he knew it was a copy as he said the guitar was in his family for decades.

He hided the trussrod with a 2 srews cover. He put a little piece of wood in the cavity of the trussrod to fix the second screw. I should ask him to remove the cover and have a look before buying it but who do that? I discovered that one's I was back home.

The guitar have a fantastic look and the sound is beautiful. It had the logo. It had the waffles tuners. It had the patine and the label.

The now known liar was asking 2K Canadian. I asked him why this low price for a Dove? He said he didn't use it and was alone - last man alive in his family and wanted to sell it to someone who would play it.

On my side, i was looking for a used vintage guitar - a player to restore in this Covid period of time. So I took his word and I gave him the money (about 1200$ US). That's a lot of money but at that moment, I tought it was a real deal. My father told me later : if it's too nice to be true then it's not true 😕

Many time I did tried to call back the man but the chicken doen't reply. Call the police? Forget it too complicated in Québec.

Now : I will remove the label inside and I will write «This is a fake Gibson»  inside the guitar. I was thinking of burning it but the sound is very nice and the guitar is beautiful even if it's not a Gibson.

Cheers

  

Edited by Olive

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Play it, and enjoy it. If you remove the label, photograph it and post it when possible, for reference. Thatt will give us the opportunity to compare it to a real Gbison label format from the same period.

I was a little misleading when I said Gibson does not stamp a date on their guitars. On guitars made since the late 1970s, the date is encoded in the serial number of most guitars, but it is never stamped in the guitar in any other way.

  • Thanks 1

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