CJB Posted January 9, 2021 Author Share Posted January 9, 2021 Great advice, thanks BK! I’m sorry forgot your loss, @jedzep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 It took me a long time to figure out what guitars worked best for the way I approach them. With me it turned out to be well made spruce top ladder braced guitars and non-scalloped X braced guitars. I prefer a raw sound which I define as a quick decay and leaner in overtones/harmonics. So my '32 12 fret L1 fit the bill nicely. On the other hand, I am real curious about the Bozeman versions which should come closer to say a 1942 L-00 with its scalloped bracing and heavier build. Problem is I need to play a few. And for the past three years that has been a particularly hard row to hoe even in the best of times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62burst Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 On 1/7/2021 at 8:44 PM, Dave F said: Here's another one I found. Don't know if there any still available. Prices look good. Notice they show all 12 fret necks but have a note that they are all 14 fret. Dave's post of those old catalog pages makes for some fun "wish I had a time machine" thinking- and plenty of the descriptions suggest the selling points of the time, not just the finish on the Style L-1, "with sunburst at bridge: hand rubbed for permanency", but something else seldom mentioned and almost at play with the tone on 12 fret guitars "All Gibson guitar necks join body at 14th fret. . . reduces the number of frets on the guitar top to a minimum." If you can detect ~ 1" more fretboard in that area, +1 for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 1 hour ago, 62burst said: Dave's post of those old catalog pages makes for some fun "wish I had a time machine" thinking- and plenty of the descriptions suggest the selling points of the time, not just the finish on the Style L-1, "with sunburst at bridge: hand rubbed for permanency", but something else seldom mentioned and almost at play with the tone on 12 fret guitars "All Gibson guitar necks join body at 14th fret. . . reduces the number of frets on the guitar top to a minimum." If you can detect ~ 1" more fretboard in that area, +1 for you. Agree on that one. Advertising hyperbole is not a new thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62burst Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, j45nick said: Agree on that one. Advertising hyperbole is not a new thing. On second thought, maybe my thinking of the 14 fret'ers design having less fretboard over the guitar's top was all about Gibson's "smooth even flow of tone", when it could've been about: ". . . adding to the player's speed and accuracy". I must've been too unstinted. Edited January 9, 2021 by 62burst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 (edited) “Balance” Most people on this forum don’t want or buy ‘balance’...even sounds across the strings - they want more bass. Blues fingerpickers in particularly want the old Gibson L-00 14 fretters because the bass and trebles are evenly ‘balanced’ across the strings so when you start pounding out a repetitive bass over treble notes, it doesn’t overwhelm everything......’balance’..... The success of the Waterloo WL-14 fretters has a lot to do with this. The big name in fingerstyle guitars, Lowden, made their name by having the large jumbo size model ‘balanced’.......it is the most peculiar thing if you are not used to it, to play a big guitar like my Lowden 022 with the ‘balance’ of a small 00....but with a huge sound! BluesKing777. Edited January 9, 2021 by BluesKing777 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 (edited) These catalogs are available at acousticmusic.org Catalogs - Acoustic Music Edited January 9, 2021 by zombywoof 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJB Posted January 11, 2021 Author Share Posted January 11, 2021 (edited) Those old ads got me looking around a few days ago. I was curious about any all mahogany Gibson L-00's out there as I had seem them but not sure what they were called or what year they were made. Well, that search brought me to an old listing at Gryphon of a 1930 L-0 12 fret: That got me thinking about the Waterloo WL-14Mh that I've seen and played in the past that has been subtly nagging in the back of my mind as a viable option. It seemed interesting to me that the Waterloo was a direct copy of a Gibson, not Kalamazoo like the others in their series (roughly speaking). Then I started to think about one of these Mh Waterloo's I saw on Reverb. So I contacted the seller and it turns out he is only 80 miles from me in the hometown of one of my favorite old blues players, Etta Baker. So while the family was doing their own stuff I took a little drive and met the seller at a nice little open air brewery. I'm not a very good salesman but it then turned out that the seller also had a remote interest in my L-00 Studio but also had one of the L-00 Vintage models I was looking for. After playing some really nice guitars for a while on a beautiful sunny but chilly Saturday afternoon while enjoying a dark stout we struck a deal. I fell in love with the Waterloo and could tell it was what I was looking for. Some cash and my L-00 Studio and the Mh was mine. I played her for a long while last night and today and I am very pleased with the outcome. This brown topped beauty is a nice compliment to my LG2 with it's resonant but yet fast decaying individual note tones - it sounds very smooth and also very immediate. The vintage style somewhat large V neck, fretboard and overall play ability rivals the LG2 which is top of the heap for me and my old hand pain issues don't seem to come up, like they do on skinnier necked guitars. All that to say, thanks to all of you for the conversation and wisdom. It's all very helpful. Edited January 11, 2021 by CJB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 Congratulations .....And you can always blame the dark stout later on if it goes wrong! (dark stout is the nice name, Lunatic Soup is the real.) Is that the same original neck as my Waterloos, or the newer smaller (slightly) neck that came later? Also, the mahogany one I tried had no pickguard and yours is like my ladder. BluesKing777. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJB Posted January 11, 2021 Author Share Posted January 11, 2021 Thanks BK. The Lunatic Soup was awful tasty! It's the original neck shape, not the smaller one. I was told that this guitar had the firestripe guard and the black button tuners were added at the factory as an option. The tuners are a little stiff so I might take them apart and see if I can improve them but I honestly like the cream knobs like on the vintage L-0 above so I might change them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, CJB said: Thanks BK. The Lunatic Soup was awful tasty! It's the original neck shape, not the smaller one. I was told that this guitar had the firestripe guard and the black button tuners were added at the factory as an option. The tuners are a little stiff so I might take them apart and see if I can improve them but I honestly like the cream knobs like on the vintage L-0 above so I might change them out. Well, you get the vintage feel more with creaky tuners, eh? Mine are good but the same model tuners on 2 other guitars I have owned were creaky (Golden Age repros). Leave ‘em for a while and if you are still deeply in love, swap them out for some fab Schallers or something that look the same. I am not as envious now, ha! I will give my Cargill custom 00 a run in a minute......Schaller Grandtune M6 or something......real ebony buttons.....a BMW with leather steering wheel! BluesKing777. Edited January 11, 2021 by BluesKing777 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJB Posted January 11, 2021 Author Share Posted January 11, 2021 Yep, very true to the vintage vibe I guess! I've had these tuners on other guitars (Waterloos, Martins and have installed them on others). They seem to work pretty well for the most part. A few were finicky but most of them have worked well overall. We'll see... Speaking of seeing, got any pics of that Cargill? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 (edited) 45 minutes ago, CJB said: Yep, very true to the vintage vibe I guess! I've had these tuners on other guitars (Waterloos, Martins and have installed them on others). They seem to work pretty well for the most part. A few were finicky but most of them have worked well overall. We'll see... Speaking of seeing, got any pics of that Cargill? Does BK777 have a photo? Ha ha...millions of photos of guitars and 3 landscape photos!😛 Cargill Custom 00 deep body Gabon Ebony/Italian Spruce etc..and recently, a full onboard Trinity pickup system from K&K! BluesKing777. Edited January 11, 2021 by BluesKing777 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJB Posted January 11, 2021 Author Share Posted January 11, 2021 @BluesKing777 EXCELLENT! Glad you took the bait. 😄 That's a real beauty. Thanks for the pics! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 8 hours ago, CJB said: @BluesKing777 EXCELLENT! Glad you took the bait. 😄 That's a real beauty. Thanks for the pics! Yep, fully superb and it has changed my whole attitude to acoustics....no more dowdy old Mr Mahogany Guitar Only! The guitar version of the custom car or the custom fitted shoes, gloves, suit? clothes, or......etc. At first there is a feeling of total unworthiness, then later, hmmmm, what about some more, ha ha ha. But underneath the gloss black is a seething L-00 shaped deep body with my neck preference. BluesKing777. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62burst Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 10 hours ago, CJB said: @BluesKing777 EXCELLENT! Glad you took the bait. 😄 That's a real beauty. Thanks for the pics! You just had to ask him, didn't you? 😀. Well, BK got lucky on the composition of the 4th photo down in the panel- the plant reflections on the guitar's back- très dramatique! and in The States, the hang tag on the case. . . we'd call that the Minnie Pearl treatment (no offense- I've done that to a Martin) 2 hours ago, BluesKing777 said: Yep, fully superb and it has changed my whole attitude to acoustics....no more dowdy old Mr Mahogany Guitar Only! Maybe so, but it's the most honest of tonewoods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) 55 minutes ago, 62burst said: You just had to ask him, didn't you? 😀. Well, BK got lucky on the composition of the 4th photo down in the panel- the plant reflections on the guitar's back- très dramatique! and in The States, the hang tag on the case. . . we'd call that the Minnie Pearl treatment (no offense- I've done that to a Martin) Well, I guess it needs explaining, but a Hiscox case in ivory without the hang tag is worthless to the 'Know'! True.😘 I'm also thinking the Gibson L-00 Deluxe run through the shop again and gloss black'd, Gotoh 510 gold, bone nut and saddle, no pickup....hmmm https://www.gibson.com/Guitar/ACCBNZ601/L-00-Deluxe/Rosewood-Burst P.S. I was reading a thread about the (2004) custom Martin EC in gloss black and the biggest complaint was fingerprints.....I can tell you that BK777's gloss black guitar has absolutely no fingerprints, ever, except purely fresh ones! 😵 BluesKing777. Edited January 12, 2021 by BluesKing777 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) On 1/12/2021 at 1:38 AM, CJB said: @BluesKing777 EXCELLENT! Glad you took the bait. 😄 That's a real beauty. Thanks for the pics! I meant to say how sensational the playability is on the Cargill.... How is the action on your Waterloo and Gibson LG2? Do you have a good luthier/guitar tech or are you experienced at repairs yourself? ( I ask because even though the action was good on my Waterloos straight from the shop, my luthier doing some magic over it can get an extra bit of l-o-v-e. I thought my ladder braced was nice but he took a bit off the bass side, really good!) BluesKing777. Edited January 12, 2021 by BluesKing777 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJB Posted January 13, 2021 Author Share Posted January 13, 2021 @BluesKing777 I'm not surprised your Cargill has great playability. How would you describe the neck on it? Both the Waterloo and the LG2 were set up about the same. The WL being used and the LG2 being new however. There are a few good luthiers around here but setting up my guitar is something I enjoy doing so I fiddle with it over several days after I get to know it. The LG2 needed some nut slot reduction and saddle tinkering . I also slotted the bridge and put some of Bob Colosi's unslotted bone pins in it. The saddle wasn't compensated so I worked on that and now the intonation is as good as I can appreciate. I also eased the edges of the fretboard a little. It didn't need much but it feels so nice now. The frets were level as they should have been right away. 3.5/64" at the 12th E. The 'Loo is getting close to where I want it for setup. It doesn't look like it was messed with much if any from new, at least as far as I can tell. Again, nut slot reduction (very slight as not much needed) but after playing it tonight I feel that the G needs a wee bit more taken down. Intonation was just right off the bat - saddle compensated already. Saddle height lowered to 4/64" at the 12th E at the moment. I will probably take that down just a little bit on the treble side. The deep vintage V neck is much more pronounced and thicker than the LG2 but switching back and forth is seamless though I do notice it. I'll probably ease the fretboard edges a little bit as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, CJB said: @BluesKing777 I'm not surprised your Cargill has great playability. How would you describe the neck on it? Both the Waterloo and the LG2 were set up about the same. The WL being used and the LG2 being new however. There are a few good luthiers around here but setting up my guitar is something I enjoy doing so I fiddle with it over several days after I get to know it. The LG2 needed some nut slot reduction and saddle tinkering . I also slotted the bridge and put some of Bob Colosi's unslotted bone pins in it. The saddle wasn't compensated so I worked on that and now the intonation is as good as I can appreciate. I also eased the edges of the fretboard a little. It didn't need much but it feels so nice now. The frets were level as they should have been right away. 3.5/64" at the 12th E. The 'Loo is getting close to where I want it for setup. It doesn't look like it was messed with much if any from new, at least as far as I can tell. Again, nut slot reduction (very slight as not much needed) but after playing it tonight I feel that the G needs a wee bit more taken down. Intonation was just right off the bat - saddle compensated already. Saddle height lowered to 4/64" at the 12th E at the moment. I will probably take that down just a little bit on the treble side. The deep vintage V neck is much more pronounced and thicker than the LG2 but switching back and forth is seamless though I do notice it. I'll probably ease the fretboard edges a little bit as well. Good news, then! Sounds like you know what you are doing. I asked because many people here buy a guitar and don't know what a setup is, and also don't know a luthier....and play on in...pain? Cargill neck...(5 piece laminated neck ala Lowden style necks), and as seen in the photo above, he has a plane in his hand, so all the neck is done like that......He says in his ad for custom guitars and he has said it to me a few times but he gets a 'high density bone' for the nut and saddle - more sustain. Well, no idea here but it works. Ebony board, bridge - more sustain. I can play a chord and it is still ringing after I come back from making a coffee! 😎 ( same with my Lowden S35!). Have to heavily damp a Lowden or Cargill for country blues playing or they can ring too much. I had the measure for my 2002 Martin OM18V (Mod V) but all the hand work has resulted in a rounder, slightly smaller shape but it is very, very nice to play...and I jump between the Mod V, Waterloo V easily. It is low, can't tell you the measure as I am working currently and I am not sure if he tweaks everything when it is visiting him for something else, but I suspect so. Or it has more magic dust... But there is a huge emotional connection after someone builds you a guitar...though he probably doesn't give a hoot! Well, perhaps a hoot more than a Gibson salesman but not really much more - probably concerns about the stated lifetime warranty! BluesKing777. Edited January 13, 2021 by BluesKing777 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 On 1/12/2021 at 1:57 AM, 62burst said: Maybe so, but it's the most honest of tonewoods. 😵, , , statements like this make the world and my eyes spin. Is it something you can substantiate. Maybe in a poem. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62burst Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 5 hours ago, E-minor7 said: 😵, , , statements like this make the world and my eyes spin. Is it something you can substantiate. Maybe in a poem. . Apologies- not feeling terribly poetic & didn't mean to make world and eyes spin, 'just conscious of OP CJB's happy announcement on finding his guitar, an all-mahogany one at that, and maybe sensing just a little bit of irony at the idea of playing authentic blues on a fancy custom built guitar. It is a looker, though. 🙂. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave F Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 Here’s a start My simple mahogany Setting gently upon my knee With neither fancy grain or glossy sheen It produces a sound that is all so clean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 15 minutes ago, 62burst said: Apologies- not feeling terribly poetic & didn't mean to make world and eyes spin, 'just conscious of OP CJB's happy announcement on finding his guitar, an all-mahogany one at that, and maybe sensing just a little bit of irony at the idea of playing authentic blues on a fancy custom built guitar. It is a looker, though. 🙂. Well, I will have you know that acoustic blues sound sensational on the ‘fancy custom built guitar’ but I don’t play ‘authentic’ or ‘honest’, but I can play all day! Post some of your ‘authentic blues’ on your ‘honest tonewood’ or zip it! Put your money where your mouth is... BluesKing777. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave F Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 1 hour ago, BluesKing777 said: Well, I will have you know that acoustic blues sound sensational on the ‘fancy custom built guitar’ but I don’t play ‘authentic’ or ‘honest’, but I can play all day! Post some of your ‘authentic blues’ on your ‘honest tonewood’ or zip it! Put your money where your mouth is... BluesKing777. Is Hogeye available to field this request? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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