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CJB

Looking for a L-00 'Vintage'

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1 hour ago, 62burst said:

Apologies- not feeling terribly poetic & didn't mean to make world and eyes spin, 'just conscious of OP CJB's happy announcement on finding his guitar, an all-mahogany one at that, and maybe sensing just a little bit of irony at the idea of playing authentic blues on a fancy custom built guitar. It is a looker, though.  🙂.

Okay, , , was expecting to hear some original and mind-expanding viewpoints here - something you're really good at.                                                                                                                                                                                      O those tonewoods - an ever intriguing topic. Not strong on different types of spruce tops, but the big R M & M - what a joy it is to switch between them. 

1 hour ago, Dave F said:

Here’s a start

My simple mahogany 

Setting gently upon my knee

With neither fancy grain or glossy sheen

It produces a sound that is all so clean

Bravo ! these are lines few people will misunderstand. I'll take the next verse. 

So glad that I am able

to reach out for my maple

A double lucky fellow

The Dove's both sharp and mellow

 

 

Edited by E-minor7

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Sorry you decided to take it that way, BK. Gee, I put a happy face on there, and everything.

Edited by 62burst

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1 minute ago, 62burst said:

Sorry you took it that way. Gee, I put a happy face on there, and everything.

We haven’t had a good meltdown in a while, we’re due. 

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1 hour ago, E-minor7 said:

Okay, , , was expecting to hear some original and mind-expanding viewpoints here - something you're really good at.                                                                                                                                                                                      O those tonewoods - an ever intriguing topic. Not strong on different types of spruce tops, but the big R M & M - what a joy it is to switch between them. 

Bravo ! these are lines few people will misunderstand. I'll take the next verse. 

So glad that I am able

to reach out for my maple

A double lucky fellow

The Dove's both sharp and mellow

 

 

Since you’re on a maple journey, can you work in this verse from Roger Miller?

Roses are red and violets are purple
Sugar is sweet and so is maple surple

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16 minutes ago, Dave F said:

Since you’re on a maple journey, can you work in this verse from Roger Miller?

Roses are red and violets are purple
Sugar is sweet and so is maple surple

🍁 The rhyme above too is understood and appreciated. Yet something indicates next step must be about rose.  

Many rivers I crossed - both flow and ebb

From East till far West did I wander

Up North down South on the world wide web

for those back and sides of palisander

 

 

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Just now, Dave F said:

I had to look that one up

 

same here.

 

good one.

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On 1/11/2021 at 11:50 AM, CJB said:

Those old ads got me looking around a few days ago.  I was curious about any all mahogany Gibson L-00's out there as I had seem them but not sure what they were called or what year they were made.  Well, that search brought me to an old listing at Gryphon of a 1930 L-0 12 fret:

482989.jpg?1544543123

That got me thinking about the Waterloo WL-14Mh that I've seen and played in the past that has been subtly nagging in the back of my mind as a viable option.  It seemed interesting to me that the Waterloo was a direct copy of a Gibson, not Kalamazoo like the others in their series (roughly speaking).  Then I started to think about one of these Mh Waterloo's I saw on Reverb.  So I contacted the seller and it turns out he is only 80 miles from me in the hometown of one of my favorite old blues players, Etta Baker. So while the family was doing their own stuff I took a little drive and met the seller at a nice little open air brewery.  I'm not a very good salesman but it then turned out that the seller also had a remote interest in my L-00 Studio but also had one of the L-00 Vintage models I was looking for.  After playing some really nice guitars for a while on a beautiful sunny but chilly Saturday afternoon while enjoying a dark stout we struck a deal.  I fell in love with the Waterloo and could tell it was what I was looking for.  Some cash and my L-00 Studio and the Mh was mine.  

I played her for a long while last night and today and I am very pleased with the outcome.  This brown topped beauty is a nice compliment to my LG2 with it's resonant but yet fast decaying individual note tones - it sounds very smooth and also very immediate.  The vintage style somewhat large V neck, fretboard and overall play ability rivals the LG2  which is top of the heap for me and my old hand pain issues don't seem to come up,  like they do on skinnier necked guitars.  

All that to say, thanks to all of you for the conversation and wisdom.  It's all very helpful.  

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Back peddling to this post........

I played my black Waterloo for lunchtime and then after work, walked the dog and came back to practice for about an hour with my (2014-2015???) Martin CEO-7 and it is just a killer guitar now it seems to have broken in a bit. I mention it again because, evil me.....it could make a fantastic companion for your LG2 and Waterloo!

There was a lot of chat about them when they first came out and it has returned after a lull.....surely all those people that recommend one don’t own one? Anyway, if you have not tried one, have a look at a used early model 14-15, before they changed the mahogany and stuff - early ones were supposed to be a limited edition but people kept buying them and Martin kept making them! As you would, but at one stage they were Sipo mahogany - looks stripey.

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

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I see what you're doing, @BluesKing777, and I'm not falling for it! 🤣   I have never actually played one of the CEO7's but it's one of those guitars that I always hear people recommending.  I'd love to try one some day and there's no doubt that I'd like it, and that's an interesting note about the '14-15 models and the mahogany.   But if I add another, I hope it's one of the Vintage L-00's otherwise I think I need to be done with the acquisitions and even scale back the little Martin custom  017 I have

Except for a strange little guitar that arrived yesterday.  It's a Stella neck with a Barclay body.  As far as I know Barclay is an inexpensive Australian brand?  It's also my last name.  And Stella is my Australian Cattle Dog's name, she's a good girl.  And yesterday was my birthday. So the purchase seemed fitting.  It sounds ok, plays ok and has an interesting story and connection to my family.  

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fm1DhUwQEkv40nNxGtL93bHv0L_28fVuq7AzlS_E

 

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8 hours ago, CJB said:

I see what you're doing, @BluesKing777, and I'm not falling for it! 🤣   I have never actually played one of the CEO7's but it's one of those guitars that I always hear people recommending.  I'd love to try one some day and there's no doubt that I'd like it, and that's an interesting note about the '14-15 models and the mahogany.   But if I add another, I hope it's one of the Vintage L-00's otherwise I think I need to be done with the acquisitions and even scale back the little Martin custom  017 I have

Except for a strange little guitar that arrived yesterday.  It's a Stella neck with a Barclay body.  As far as I know Barclay is an inexpensive Australian brand?  It's also my last name.  And Stella is my Australian Cattle Dog's name, she's a good girl.  And yesterday was my birthday. So the purchase seemed fitting.  It sounds ok, plays ok and has an interesting story and connection to my family.  

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fm1DhUwQEkv40nNxGtL93bHv0L_28fVuq7AzlS_E

 

 

Well, don't play the CEO7 - but you have been warned!😎

Don't know about the Barclay but I have a Australian Cattle Dog x Staffy Terrier, used to have a Cattle Dog years back - very, very clever dogs - perhaps the canine chimpanzee!

 

BluesKing777.

 

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There are still no new model LG2s in my country, just a few Gibsons I already have!

I am researching, not buying! My second car has been at the mechanics for 3 months with nothing done - Covid problems with parts delivery and supply. It is close, he said but still wouldn't give me an approximate total cost.... hope the Guitar Fund doesn't need to go to the Car Fund!

I have a couple I want to sell and the proceeds will go to :

1. New Gibson LG2 Original 50s?

https://www.gibson.com/Guitar/ACCDYV983/50s-LG-2/Vintage-Sunburst

 

2.  Martin CEO - 9?

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CEO9--martin-ceo-9-mango-sunset-burst

 

3. Martin 00-28?

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/0028Y8--martin-00-28-natural

 

4. Martin Custom Shop 00-14?

Yep, it is more money but I would love to try a Custom Shop Sinker Mahogany:

https://www.peachguitars.com/guitars/acoustic-guitars/cf-martin-custom-shop-00-14-fret-adirondack-and-sinker-mahogany.htm

 

00 size guitars are my thing, really....

So, no LG2s here of any type! (I have a 59 LG3, so...). The CEO-9 might look pretty but it is probably very similar to the CEO7...same neck! Then the 00-28 is currently sitting in a shop just up the road! Except we can't go in because of the virus! And the sinker mahogany is probably a dream too far!

I'm thinking the 00-28, never seen or played one. like to!

BluesKing777.

 

Edited by BluesKing777

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BK, that's a great lineup of guitars you're wanting to sample.  That custom 00-14 Martin looks incredible too.  I bet it's a powerhouse - but also similar to the ceo7?.  Honestly, most sane people would probably be happy with any of those.  

I tell you, the more I play my LG2 the more it comes alive and just begs to be played.  I hope you get to at least sample one.   I've had a good time trying different bridge pins in it this evening.  Antique Acoustics black plastic, Colosi bone and original Tusq all sound great but right now I'm leaning toward the AA pins most.  

And the mahogany Waterloo is becoming a really fun flavor adding into the mix.  So far I play the LG2 more though.  

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I have the AA pins in a few guitars...should have wrote a note! No idea who or where now. My luthier's fault that I love his 'high density bone' nuts, saddles and pins! Lowdens don't have pins! Pinless bridges....

Is it too early in the piece to ask how you compare the necks of your LG2/W'Loo? My W'L00s necks are very, very similar to an old '35 Gibson archtop I have. so fairly historically accurate while the  new Gibsons have ...new Gibson necks! My 59 LG3 has a chunky 'C' shape but the nut is 1 11/16", so your LG2 is kind of 'made up'....😡

Which brings us to the custom Martin above - they have the MLO neck! Same for the newer 00-28...Hmmm. Why do they do it?

And then we have the CEO 9 with fat mod V, wide spacing  - the CEO 7 is similar to the Waterloo WL-14 and the '9' is supposed to be similar..

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

 

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BK, at first I thought the AA pins were some kind of gimmick but I tried them and found they are terrific.  Precisely made and go well in my little custom Marton 017 that doesn't like ebony or bone pins.  That guitar has a MLO neck and I have the hardest time getting comfortable on it.  I need to measure it compared to the 'Loo and LG2. 

The Waterloo has a much more pronounced and girthy V shape.  When you grab it you wonder if you'll like it and if it's too pronounced.  It's very comfortable to me  though and and it almost gives your thumb a  shelf for leverage. 

The LG2 says it has a historic V or something like that and it feels much more like a  mid/chunky C shape.  Not huge but not small or slim.  Whatever it is, historically accurate or not, I absolutely love it.  I'l love to find a L-00 with the same shape, or maybe I'll just whittle the 'Loo down a little to mimic it.  😉   

The L-00 Studio that I had briefly had a slimmer neck than that LG2.  It was nearly comfortable but I wanted a bit more wood on the neck (but also more radius to the fretboard.)

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1 hour ago, CJB said:

BK, at first I thought the AA pins were some kind of gimmick but I tried them and found they are terrific.  Precisely made and go well in my little custom Marton 017 that doesn't like ebony or bone pins.  That guitar has a MLO neck and I have the hardest time getting comfortable on it.  I need to measure it compared to the 'Loo and LG2. 

The Waterloo has a much more pronounced and girthy V shape.  When you grab it you wonder if you'll like it and if it's too pronounced.  It's very comfortable to me  though and and it almost gives your thumb a  shelf for leverage. 

The LG2 says it has a historic V or something like that and it feels much more like a  mid/chunky C shape.  Not huge but not small or slim.  Whatever it is, historically accurate or not, I absolutely love it.  I'l love to find a L-00 with the same shape, or maybe I'll just whittle the 'Loo down a little to mimic it.  😉   

The L-00 Studio that I had briefly had a slimmer neck than that LG2.  It was nearly comfortable but I wanted a bit more wood on the neck (but also more radius to the fretboard.)

 

Well, you may have brought the clues to just the right place.........😎

Take it as your Studio has the current Gibson acoustic slimline type neck, your LG2 has a chunkier neck just invented last year and your Waterloo has a deep V that you like but want to shave (don’t!).

Now, Gibson brought out the current slim neck approx 2007-8 and between 2000 and 2007 had slightly chunkier necks, probably slashed because of the Big T slim necks taking over the planet. 

I mentioned often on this forum that I prefer chunky, but nobody ever said a thing.......imagine my surprise when I played a 2002 Gibson J50 at a pawn shop around Nov, 2019 and while the guitar action was awful in a number of ways, a few notes I played just sang out and people in the shop turned around to look. One guy said: ‘Wow, that is nice!’ or something like that.

I was already buying the thing knowing it was needing my luthier to help, badly..but I also noticed.......Bingo........the ..neck..is..chunky!

So perhaps look for a L-00 from around 2001-2002 to see if the neck is chunkier than the current - I did see a 2001 L-00 advertised with deep body in France......probably didn’t get made alone........or look at exactly like mine - 2002 J50, now a great guitar after being to the dentist. (Bone nut, saddle, full setup, Anthem pickup .........)

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

Edited by BluesKing777

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1 hour ago, BluesKing777 said:

Waterloo has a deep V that you like but want to shave (don’t!).

Don't worry, I probably won't.  😄

Excellent sleuthing.  I appreciate the history lesson too.  I saw that French deep body - that'd be a fun one to try out.  I also saw a Blues King from 2001 with a little cosmetic damage but can't tell if it's bubinga or mahogany or anything else really - the seller doesn't know very much.

The Studio is supposed to have an Advance Response neck.  Sounds like another way of saying it's a slim taper but hard to tell.  

One thing that struck me last night when playing the LG2 is not just the tone and neck feel comfort but also the resonance.  Translation: I notice that my left hand really feels the resonance of the body all the way up at the nut more so than with any guitar I've played.   Sounds corny, but it's like a like a whole body experience with the LG2.  The other guitars I've owned or own, it's only the right hand experience, not both side of the body.  Waterloo's I've had or tried (WL-K, WL-12, WL-14Mh) come close with the body resonance but it seems to stop at the neck joint.  The L-00 Studio has the same neck joint (I think?) but didn't have the same feel. 

SO I guess I'm looking for that tighter sound but also the feel of full body resonance.   Does this make sense?  I  wonder if this is possible?  In thinking all this, what factors do y'all see as coming into play here?

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5 hours ago, CJB said:

Don't worry, I probably won't.  😄

Excellent sleuthing.  I appreciate the history lesson too.  I saw that French deep body - that'd be a fun one to try out.  I also saw a Blues King from 2001 with a little cosmetic damage but can't tell if it's bubinga or mahogany or anything else really - the seller doesn't know very much.

The Studio is supposed to have an Advance Response neck.  Sounds like another way of saying it's a slim taper but hard to tell.  

One thing that struck me last night when playing the LG2 is not just the tone and neck feel comfort but also the resonance.  Translation: I notice that my left hand really feels the resonance of the body all the way up at the nut more so than with any guitar I've played.   Sounds corny, but it's like a like a whole body experience with the LG2.  The other guitars I've owned or own, it's only the right hand experience, not both side of the body.  Waterloo's I've had or tried (WL-K, WL-12, WL-14Mh) come close with the body resonance but it seems to stop at the neck joint.  The L-00 Studio has the same neck joint (I think?) but didn't have the same feel. 

SO I guess I'm looking for that tighter sound but also the feel of full body resonance.   Does this make sense?  I  wonder if this is possible?  In thinking all this, what factors do y'all see as coming into play here?

 

Well, the first thought that came to mind is neck joint and expense! Collings and Waterloo all have bolt on necks. Expense, because I think Lowden and custom guitars when you say resonance and the hunt for full body resonance.

Are you playing fingers or pick?

Next thought was your guitars are new and need some really hard playing to open them out, especially a mahogany top. Quote Jeff Tweedy from the Waterloo promo video - ‘It is like they need their hearts broken or something’. Hard playing is easy on the wallet.

Next plan is to research cedar tops, alpine spruce? Can get expensive! Customs.....

And probably the most expensive option of all.....a 1932 Gibson L-00 in mint condition. Or a NickLucas. Which brings us back to the good value of...reissues, torrefied tops, Authentics, Historics.....

see Reverb.com has a 2001 Gibson Nick Lucas L-00 shape in N Carolina! Looked under Gibson L-00 in the 2000s (years).....

Once you find a guitar that rings out, can you stop it? The Art of Damping......right and left or the guitar gets out of control - driving downhill, no brakes! Damping is the brake.

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

Edited by BluesKing777

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I don't know, @BluesKing777, I guess I'm still trying to figure out what I'm trying to say.  What I do know is that there was an immediate connection with my LG2 like no other guitar I've owned (about 38 since 1992) and somehow I feel that adding a similarly connected L00 would be a great idea.  Sounds like it's not going to be a simple journey and so it seems my best way forward is to keep playing the LG2 and 'Loo and be content while keeping an eye peeled for 'that next one'.  I appreciate all the input, education, and conversation  - it's a good community here.  Thanks!

Chris

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20 hours ago, CJB said:

I don't know, @BluesKing777, I guess I'm still trying to figure out what I'm trying to say.  What I do know is that there was an immediate connection with my LG2 like no other guitar I've owned (about 38 since 1992) and somehow I feel that adding a similarly connected L00 would be a great idea.  Sounds like it's not going to be a simple journey and so it seems my best way forward is to keep playing the LG2 and 'Loo and be content while keeping an eye peeled for 'that next one'.  I appreciate all the input, education, and conversation  - it's a good community here.  Thanks!

Chris

 

Not sure if I should do this to ya.....

Grab your best headphones and listen to this one:

 

 

And they also have a 'real' Martin 0-17 to compare to your custom:

 

 

BluesKing777.

 

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Yep that’s a really good comparison!  I haven’t visited that shop yet but they’re just a couple hours down the road from me near where I go fishing a lot. I’ll have to stop in one day. 

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2 hours ago, BluesKing777 said:

 

Not sure if I should do this to ya.....

Grab your best headphones and listen to this one:

 

 

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

 

That NL is stunning in every way. Basically sounds like a vintage L-OO on steroids.

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6 hours ago, j45nick said:

That NL is stunning in every way. Basically sounds like a vintage L-OO on steroids.

 

Sure is!

 

Small catch - the moneys....fill your card, then back to looking at reissues....

https://www.dreamguitars.com/shop/instruments/guitars/steel-string-guitars/vintage/1935-gibson-nick-lucas-maple-adirondack-spruce-92129.html

 

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, BluesKing777 said:

 

Sure is!

Small catch - the moneys....fill your card, then back to looking at reissues....

https://www.dreamguitars.com/shop/instruments/guitars/steel-string-guitars/vintage/1935-gibson-nick-lucas-maple-adirondack-spruce-92129.html

BluesKing777.

Prices like that  are the reason I stick with modern re-issues of rare or  highly-desirable vintage guitars. If you can get 85% of the tone and feel for 10% of the cost--a 1937 D-28 Authentic might be an example, compared to a "real" '37 'Bone--you are ahead of the game, especially if you can't afford the "real" thing. (I know it's hard to quantify these things, but as a former economist, I do it all the time.)

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1 hour ago, j45nick said:

Prices like that  are the reason I stick with modern re-issues of rare or  highly-desirable vintage guitars. If you can get 85% of the tone and feel for 10% of the cost--a 1937 D-28 Authentic might be an example, compared to a "real" '37 'Bone--you are ahead of the game, especially if you can't afford the "real" thing. (I know it's hard to quantify these things, but as a former economist, I do it all the time.)

 

That is also why I keep on about Waterloo WL-14s....great sound and neck shapes etc... readily available.

Speaking of neck shapes, CJB should have a look at the Lowdens at Dream Guitars if he visits...oops, looks like some one is buying it but anyway look at the neck pics:

https://www.dreamguitars.com/shop/2009-lowden-f35c-pb-honduran-rosewood-adirondack-spruce-16715.html

For fingerstyle, the Lowdens have the neck in the bag! 5 piece reinforced necks for low tunings! Yesterday, I was playing the Lowden S35 I picked up in a pawn shop a few years ago, ha ha ha ha - the previous owner must be divorced, getting divorced or dead. But anyway, I start slow in the morning on a few pseudo classical fingerpicks, worked my way through a few famous tunes and finished with a few downhome blues....all covered beautifully by the Lowden.....exactly why steam comes out my ears when people say the guitar is 'too fancy' for blues. Great sound and playability is great sound and playability! I then grabbed my recent model (2015) O22 for a few thundering DADGADS and wound down the proceedings trying to play some simple sheet music country tune melodies from the page - on the Lowden in DADGAD! It was easier to do than look up info on the internet, let me tell you.

Anyway, check out the back of my Lowden O22 neck! - a big fat weapon of a neck:

XVjUIO4h.jpg

 

P.S.  - I said Lowden because that is one of the few names I know from the list of guitars on the Dream Guitars website....they have lots of hand made custom guitars....

BluesKing777.

 

Edited by BluesKing777

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