Help in IDing my Gibson acoustic, Please!

[DonL]

I have an inherited Gibson acoustic guitar that I can't figure out. It has an internal oval tag that claims it's a Country Western model, but doesn't look like those I can find online. The Serial # 111751, I think, puts it in about 1964-5 and it is a square shoulder dreadnaught style with an unbound neck and dot inlays. It also has a teardrop pick guard and no adjustable bridge saddle. It looks like the top has been off or re-glued cause the front binding is replaced with wood. The friend I got it from used to play it back in NYC in the Village coffee house circuit, and it looks "well used", but also well loved. No neck repair or serious damage and it sounds and plays great. I just want to know what the hell it really is. I'm suspecting it's NOT a Country Western model and the guy who did the repairs to the top put the sticker in by mistake. Any advice on how to proceed would be deeply appreciated. 

Edited March 20, 2021 by DonL
punctuation

[jedzep]

Can you get a photo up, through Imgur or something?

[DonL]

I'll see what I can do for a picture. Thanks for your reply. 

[Sgt. Pepper]

5 minutes ago, DonL said:

I'll see what I can do for a picture. Thanks for your reply. 

Use Imgur 

[DonL]

This is the only pic I could make that fits the limit for images here. It hopefully has enough info to be useful. 

Edited March 20, 2021 by DonL

[Sgt. Pepper]

Why did the top have to come off if there was no major damage to it?

Go to imgur and get an account. Upload photos.  Copy were is says BBCode, and post it like this.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/OUSUr7u.jpg[/img]

Then remove all the stuff in the parentheses and just have everything from https: to where is says .jpg, Put the cursor after .jgp and hit enter and  this happens.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2021 by Sgt. Pepper

[QuestionMark]

I’m under the impression square neck 60s C&Ws have parallegram inlays on their neck, not dots. As do their counterparts SJs.  

Furthering the mystery.

QM aka “Jazzman” Jeff

[Al Pike]

I reduce size and copy and paste from my photos folder on my phone. 

[bobouz]

14 hours ago, DonL said:

This is the only pic I could make that fits the limit for images here. It hopefully has enough info to be useful. 

Don, from this rather limited view, there's not much about the guitar that looks like a Gibson.  We'll need detailed pics of the headstock (front & back), shots of the body, and whatever views of the interior that you can manage.

Given the one photo, there's nothing about the top that looks like a Gibson.   The tuners are a type that were seen on certain Guild models in the '70s, but were never standard issue on a Gibson (of course tuners can be changed).  The two screw truss rod cover is a good sign, but that's not enough to determine anything conclusively at this point.

[DonL]

I took some more detailed pics in my camera's lowest res and will try posting them here now. The top, as I recall, had to have some bracing repaired way back when, and my friend also had the tuners replaced and the D Armond 230 pickup installed with a strap-button jack. I also think this has been re-fretted, as they seem bigger than what would have come on this.

[DonL]

[DonL]

[zombywoof]

Color me confused.  The  rosette, dot position markers, and lack of neck binding do not indicate a 1960s C&W.   What the combination of these features do point to is obviously the question.

[j45nick]

Re-topped maybe?

Rosette is not right. Dot fretboard inlay not right. Tuners not right, Pickguard not right.

I'm not sure about this one.

[QuestionMark]

For what it’s worth, the truss rod cover appears to be leaning to the second string tuning pole a bit more than it should be, as opposed to being straight.   Also, the headstock veneer appears to be cracked and dried too much, like water damaged??

The bridge also seems to be maybe be a replacement bridge, not a typical Gibson shape.??

QM aka “Jazzman” Jeff

 

[j45nick]

15 minutes ago, QuestionMark said:

For what it’s worth, the truss rod cover appears to be leaning to the second string tuning pole a bit more than it should be, as opposed to being straight.   Also, the headstock veneer appears to be cracked and dried too much, like water damaged??

The bridge also seems to be maybe be a replacement bridge, not a typical Gibson shape.??

QM aka “Jazzman” Jeff

 

If you look at the upper TR screw, the cover is not centered on the screw, which may be creating some of that effect.

I have certainly seen that level of crazing before. 

It is possible that this guitar has had a new fretboard and a new top, if it was heavily gigged for years. The work we see would not have been done by Gibson, but could have been done by any competent luthier.

The label is torn in the place this label typically tears on this model, as there is usually a gap under the label on either side of the centerline back strip. I looked at a bunch of online photos that showed similar damage.

A photo of the back would be helpful.

[DonL]

27 minutes ago, j45nick said:

If you look at the upper TR screw, the cover is not centered on the screw, which may be creating some of that effect.

I have certainly seen that level of crazing before. 

It is possible that this guitar has had a new fretboard and a new top, if it was heavily gigged for years. The work we see would not have been done by Gibson, but could have been done by any competent luthier.

The label is torn in the place this label typically tears on this model, as there is usually a gap under the label on either side of the centerline back strip. I looked at a bunch of online photos that showed similar damage.

A photo of the back would be helpful.

You're right about the truss rod cover and to my eye the 'crown' inlay on the headstock appears to lean to the right at about the same angle.  I only have 12 KB of file space left so can't upload another picture, but the back and sides are normal red mahogany with finish checking like the headstock and 5 ply binding with the typical yellow/white outer layer. Could this be some sort of factory second that was incorrectly labeled? Too bad the serial #s don't designate the models produced. 

[stein]

Oddly, the only thing that looks genuine on this guitar is the headstock itself. 

I have met some relatively well known musicians that were not bashful that what they were playing were copies. Like  a Tokia or Aria with a replaced headstock. My  best guess is that this is one of those guitars. That is, a "generic" guitar with a replaced headstock. 

Any evidence of that where the headstock joins the neck? 

[E-minor7]

Hey - you certainly don't make it easy for us. The Country Western label is original hehe, , , so is the neck (I assume). Then again, , , ,                                                                                                                                                               which Gibson would have this neck back in the day. Not the CW nor the Bird or SJ or Dove or 45 or 200 or J-160. An LG-something. . ? No !

I been mystified for days, but this is 100 sure : You have one of those frankensteins, , , , , , , , , , , , , how does it sound ?

[bobouz]

Your serial number’s sequence was used in 1963, and again in 1967 - which was not unusual for Gibson in the ‘60s.  From what can be seen thus far, the headstock & back bracing appear to be correct for the era.  But the top does not, and the fingerboard of a CW/SJ should have parallelogram inlays - so perhaps the guitar received both a new top and fingerboard at some point in time.

[QuestionMark]

9 minutes ago, bobouz said:

Your serial number’s sequence was used in 1963, and again in 1967 - which was not unusual for Gibson in the ‘60s.  From what can be seen thus far, the headstock & back bracing appear to be correct for the era.  But the top does not, and the fingerboard of a CW/SJ should have parallelogram inlays - so perhaps the guitar received both a new top and fingerboard at some point in time.

I concur with your assumptions.

 

QM aka “JazzmanL Jeff

[j45nick]

34 minutes ago, bobouz said:

Your serial number’s sequence was used in 1963, and again in 1967 - which was not unusual for Gibson in the ‘60s.  From what can be seen thus far, the headstock & back bracing appear to be correct for the era.  But the top does not, and the fingerboard of a CW/SJ should have parallelogram inlays - so perhaps the guitar received both a new top and fingerboard at some point in time.

That is what I suspect, as mentioned previously. The tuners are strange, but there are no obvious marks that would say they are not original to the guitar.

Anyone seen those tuners before?

[E-minor7]

40 minutes ago, j45nick said:

Anyone seen those tuners before?

As bobouz says, these are old Guild tuning machines.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Judging from the serial# and the back-braces the guitar is probably 'built on' a 1963 Country Western. 

[bobouz]

1 hour ago, j45nick said:

Anyone seen those tuners before?

During the ‘70s, they were standard issue on the Guild D-35, D-40, & G-37.  Those three models were frequently seen in stores, and there may have been a few other models that used them.  I have a 1976 G-37 with these tuners.

[stein]

We can probably say for sure, this is more than one guitar...that is the bridge, fretboard, and more than likely the top do not match the headstock.  And THAT means the guitar would have at least got a new finish or parts refinished and sprayed over. And THAT means there would be a lot of checking. 

I don't see where these tuners would not cover holes that were there from original tuners. And of course, for a "custom" build you have to have fancy "custom" tuners, right? 

I wouldn't want to say for sure that the back and sides are Gibson based on a pic of the label and a little of the bracing. More pics would be helpful.