kidblast Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 (edited) this thread is amusing. Gibson has been in bizz for over 100 years I don't think they are going anywhere anytime soon. Edited June 1, 2021 by kidblast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Pepper Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 53 minutes ago, kidblast said: this thread is amusing. Gibson has been in bizz for over 100 years I don't think they are going anywhere anytime soon. No they wont and look Guitar Center is still in business too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveFord Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 I'm going to have to swing by a GC this Summer. Last time I was in one it was mostly empty shelves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 7 hours ago, jvi said: most companies make more than 10% as forty suggests, they would go out of business if the margin was 10%, and, how have the high prices worked for G in the last number of years ? (sell a 3k git for 3 k not 4 k as it seems to be. if asia can do it so can we. have a nice day .... First company I looked at - General Motors. In their past 36 quarterly reports only ONCE was their net margin above 10%. Average was around 5% and that one quarter was only 10.15%. Margin is after taxes. Asia can do it because they pay their workers $.50 an hour and we pay them $20. Asia can do it because they don't have all the laws regarding safety, environment, etc. we do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsongs Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 5 hours ago, fortyearspickn said: First company I looked at - General Motors. In their past 36 quarterly reports only ONCE was their net margin above 10%. Average was around 5% and that one quarter was only 10.15%. Margin is after taxes. Asia can do it because they pay their workers $.50 an hour and we pay them $20. Asia can do it because they don't have all the laws regarding safety, environment, etc. we do. Key word being “Net”.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvi Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 11 hours ago, fortyearspickn said: First company I looked at - General Motors. In their past 36 quarterly reports only ONCE was their net margin above 10%. Average was around 5% and that one quarter was only 10.15%. Margin is after taxes. Asia can do it because they pay their workers $.50 an hour and we pay them $20. Asia can do it because they don't have all the laws regarding safety, environment, etc. we do. so asia can do something we cant ? bs- all Im saying is gibson could sell base models like j 45s for less, make a profit and sell more. the car companies have needed repeated bail outs and are getting in trouble because cars and trucks are over priced too. Corporations are for profit not for people, thats fine, but I wont pretend they are there to make me or you happy. I can like a guitar without corp-love for the company. Im NOT saying there is anything wrong with Gibson...have a nice day and stay "tuned",,, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 7 hours ago, Larsongs said: Key word being “Net”.... Yep. Basically means 'cash left over... aka PROFIT'. There are other "measures' sometimes used: GROSS margin, - which is your revenue less the cost of materials and labor that directly went into producing your product, and Earnings Before Interest and Taxes - which is your Gross Margin less your General/Administrative Costs except Interest and Taxes. They measure different things - but Net Profit is how much you have left over after ALL your operating costs/expenses are taken into account. Net Margin/Profit is how much you can put into the bank - so you can save to buy new equipment, etc. If you have no 'Net Margin' - you will soon fall behind in not being able to repair, renovate and replace your Plant & Equipment. And then, one day, you will have to shut down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Pepper Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 (edited) 16 hours ago, SteveFord said: I'm going to have to swing by a GC this Summer. Last time I was in one it was mostly empty shelves. I was in the one in North Myrtle this last weekend. 3 Martins (two were 000-15's and one was a cutaway, not sure of the model) in the whole store, and 0.0 Gibson's in the acoustic room. I got new set of the hydration packs so I don't have to mess with the water and sponge things and a peg winder for a drill or cordless screwdriver to wind the strings. Edited June 2, 2021 by Sgt. Pepper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 1 hour ago, jvi said: ... bs- all Im saying is gibson could sell base models like j 45s for less, make a profit and sell more ... IF they can sell J45s for less and have $ left over for a profit ... you must know how much it costs Gibson to make J45s. Care to share? While you're at it - you must know how much Gibson sells them for? What do they actually get paid from Guitar Center? You know, before GC marks up that Wholesale price to get to their Retail price of $2749? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvi Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 14 minutes ago, fortyearspickn said: IF they can sell J45s for less and have $ left over for a profit ... you must know how much it costs Gibson to make J45s. Care to share? While you're at it - you must know how much Gibson sells them for? What do they actually get paid from Guitar Center? You know, before GC marks up that Wholesale price to get to their Retail price of $2749? Im just saying that pricing at the right point increases sales and a LOT of product is OVER PRICED. Easy credit fuels this rise in cost and we just go along and end up supporting off shore companies The chain of profit dosnt help either. Again, if a j 45 was less expensive myself and others would buy more of them .Is a house in Victoria worth 1.2 million NO ...but people pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsongs Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 27 minutes ago, fortyearspickn said: IF they can sell J45s for less and have $ left over for a profit ... you must know how much it costs Gibson to make J45s. Care to share? While you're at it - you must know how much Gibson sells them for? What do they actually get paid from Guitar Center? You know, before GC marks up that Wholesale price to get to their Retail price of $2749? Do you have any idea what’s involved & how long it takes to build a high quality Acoustic Guitar? Then there’s the Materials, Labor Cost & other Overhead costs.... There are many YouTube Factory Tours that go through the process.. Well worth watching.. I’m pretty sure Gibson still establishes the MSRP & MAP Pricing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvi Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 6 minutes ago, ghost_of_fl said: As stated above, they have: 1. Lower minimum wage 2. Different laws regarding safety, environment, etc. Little known fact: The smog in China is so bad, they have considered temporary driving bans. Can you imagine that happening here? Im not saying we could match the price just lower ours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 2 hours ago, Larsongs said: Do you have any idea what’s involved & how long it takes to build a high quality Acoustic Guitar? Then there’s the Materials, Labor Cost & other Overhead costs.... There are many YouTube Factory Tours that go through the process.. Well worth watching.. I’m pretty sure Gibson still establishes the MSRP & MAP Pricing. Yeah. I've seen the videos. What's your point ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Pepper Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 40 minutes ago, jvi said: Im not saying we could match the price just lower ours. Ever use c-rap from China its junk. I never have or never will own a guitar that doesn't say made in USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsongs Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, fortyearspickn said: Yeah. I've seen the videos. What's your point ? The numerous Man hours involved + Materials + Overhead + Profit is the point... How much do you think a high quality Instrument capable of playing & sounding beautiful that is also capable of lasting 100 years or maybe more should cost? Edited June 2, 2021 by Larsongs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 3 hours ago, ghost_of_fl said: As stated above, they have: 1. Lower minimum wage 2. Different laws regarding safety, environment, etc. Little known fact: The smog in China is so bad, they have considered temporary driving bans. Can you imagine that happening here? No wonder they cant drive. How can you see where your going in that? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 7 hours ago, Larsongs said: The numerous Man hours involved + Materials + Overhead + Profit is the point... How much do you think a high quality Instrument capable of playing & sounding beautiful that is also capable of lasting 100 years or maybe more should cost? I think you're confused. I'm the one arguing that Gibson should NOT be expected to lower their prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsongs Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, fortyearspickn said: I think you're confused. I'm the one arguing that Gibson should NOT be expected to lower their prices. My apologies friend.. I guess I misunderstood or mistook you for someone else... The guy who thinks USA Gibsons should be cheaper .. Edited June 3, 2021 by Larsongs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merciful-evans Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 As someone who has had a fair few Chinese/Asian guitars I can attest that its not all about labour rates. The very cheapest guitars (£130 for a Jaxville starter kit) have hardware so cheap its not fit for function. I bought one at the local tip for £15 (I got it for the body). You couldn't even change the strings. Because they drilled the holes in the trem block undersize. Why? Because that way they could make the trem block a bit thinner. I plugged it in and the cable just fell straight out again. Why? Because the metal they used for the output jack didnt 'spring back' into place like proper steel. The 'copper' pickup wire is pink. How much copper is in that alloy? Its a sure bet all the hardware is made from recycled soda cans. That much is well known. They do work, but that alloy was not designed to be guitar parts. So it wont last as long a hardware made from alloys chosen by the draftsman that designed the original hardware. Guitars this cheap are not made to be guitars. They are made to be sold. Most Chinese guitars are much better than this, but this example shows how bad they can be down at the really sh1tty end of the market. So yes, let all embrace some of these affordable methods of production at incorporate them in Gibsons shall we? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvi Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 ok, lets celebrate rising prices and believe the corps have no choice. Its not just gits , prices are too high everywhere on everything and yet stocks climb as the middle class falls. There are some nice gits made elsewhere and that money aint staying in N.A. seems some folks are p-od at my very suggestion, Great Consumers !!!! charge more ! love it ! it means its better !!! bs my opinion is not slander.... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvi Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 6 hours ago, Larsongs said: My apologies friend.. I guess I misunderstood or mistook you for someone else... The guy who thinks USA Gibsons should be cheaper .. they save money using Chinese tuners and thats ok? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgm Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 (edited) The general rule for all businesses is that the product should be sold for at least THREE times what it took to make/produce it. AFAIK. Otherwise the business might just meet the production costs and overheads but will not make any profit, leading very quickly to insolvency. It's only a general rule so I'm sure there are exceptions. Th OP's question is a good one though, considering the tens of thousands of very high-quality guitars produced in the Far East, imported then sold for a tenth of the price. Labour costs really changed everything in our system. Edited June 3, 2021 by jdgm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 7 hours ago, Larsongs said: My apologies friend.. I guess I misunderstood or mistook you for someone else... The guy who thinks USA Gibsons should be cheaper .. No worries... I knew we were in agreement. Hard to keep it straight though when people continue to throw out random suggestions that companies should lower their prices to compete with China. "Evil Corporations" "Capitalist Pigs" "A Chicken in Every Pot" "Everyone gets a trophy" ... "Gibsons and Rolexes For Everyone" ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 46 minutes ago, jvi said: ok, lets celebrate rising prices and believe the corps have no choice. Its not just gits , prices are too high everywhere on everything and yet stocks climb as the middle class falls. There are some nice gits made elsewhere and that money aint staying in N.A. seems some folks are p-od at my very suggestion, Great Consumers !!!! charge more ! love it ! it means its better !!! bs my opinion is not slander.... I don't think everyone here disagrees Jim. I certainly don't. I've owned enough of the imports to know that they are better today than they were 20 years ago. WAY Better. Is a USA made guitar, costing sometimes 10x what the import costs, really 10 times better? That is a subjective question only answered by the guy making the purchase. I don't think there's a single "right "answer for this one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveFord Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 If that's what your heart is set on you buy it. It may not be now but sooner or later you'll do it if you work hard, keep your nose clean and eat all of your vegetables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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