fake or real j 50

[deanc]

hey guys, trying to determine if the old j50  is a fake  Gibson.  no serial number , no label, bridge has been changed or never was an adjustable .  guitar has 3 dots on the fret board below the 12th fret which i hav not seen before.  guitar sounds amazing   can't seem to upload any pictures for viewing . get error message saying file to large , just a photo so not sure what is going on with that.  any help would be appreciated 

[Dave F]

I don't think they started stamping the head until 1961 so you should be looking for the FON.

Is there an ink stamp inside on the neck block?

 

Gibson Factory Order Numbers, 1942 to 1951.

• • Serial numbers are seldon found on instruments made during WW2. But most (not all) have Factory Order Numbers (FON). These contain a four digit batch number stamped in ink, followed by a two digit sequence number written in red pencil (during WW2 only). After the war, the red pencil wasn't used (and on instruments made during the war, sometimes it's really hard to see the red penciled sequence number). Usually there is no more than 46 instruments (sequence numbers) per batch. Also no batch number with a "1" as the first digit was used during WW2. The FON is usually located on the neck block. The war-time list that follows is not definative but includes FONs that I have seen. Unfortunately I don't have every range of FON's during this period.

    Year    Factory Order Number 
    ----    --------------------
    1941    G (letter code sometimes seen after FON, i.e. 2586G).
    1942    907, 910, 923, 2004, 2005, 7000ish (i.e. 7119) - all 'Banner' logo.
    1942    H (letter code sometimes seen after FON, i.e. 7116H). Range 5xxxH to 8xxxH
    1943    Range generally 9xx to 22xx, depending on the model.
    1944    Range generally 22xx to 29XX, depending on the model, some with no FON.
    1945    1xx to 10xx, but many with no FON.
    1946    n/a ('Banner' logo no longer used, now script logo with no banner).
    1947    700s to 1000s
    1948    1100s to 3700s ('Script' logo no longer used, block logo used.)
    1949    2000s
    1950    3000s to 5000s
    1951    6000s to 9000s

  • • Factory Order Numbers with a Letter, 1952 to 1961.
      This letter preceeds the batch number within the Factory Order Number (FON), and denotes the year of manufacturer. Remember, the batch number is the first 4 digits of the FON, followed by a 1 or 2 digit sequence number (within the batch). This letter should be before the FON batch number. This was used on archtop models (ink stamped inside treble F-hole) and on flat top models (ink stamped on the neck block), from 1952 to 1961:

  • Year    Letter
    ----    ------
    1952    Z
    1953    Y
    1954    X
    1955    W
    1956    V
    1957    U
    1958    T
    1959    S
    1960    R
    1961    Q

[deanc]

16 minutes ago, Dave F said:

I don't think they started stamping the head until 1961 so you should be looking for the FON.

Is there an ink stamp inside on the neck block?

 

Gibson Factory Order Numbers, 1942 to 1951.

• • Serial numbers are seldon found on instruments made during WW2. But most (not all) have Factory Order Numbers (FON). These contain a four digit batch number stamped in ink, followed by a two digit sequence number written in red pencil (during WW2 only). After the war, the red pencil wasn't used (and on instruments made during the war, sometimes it's really hard to see the red penciled sequence number). Usually there is no more than 46 instruments (sequence numbers) per batch. Also no batch number with a "1" as the first digit was used during WW2. The FON is usually located on the neck block. The war-time list that follows is not definative but includes FONs that I have seen. Unfortunately I don't have every range of FON's during this period.

    
    
    Year    Factory Order Number 
    ----    --------------------
    1941    G (letter code sometimes seen after FON, i.e. 2586G).
    1942    907, 910, 923, 2004, 2005, 7000ish (i.e. 7119) - all 'Banner' logo.
    1942    H (letter code sometimes seen after FON, i.e. 7116H). Range 5xxxH to 8xxxH
    1943    Range generally 9xx to 22xx, depending on the model.
    1944    Range generally 22xx to 29XX, depending on the model, some with no FON.
    1945    1xx to 10xx, but many with no FON.
    1946    n/a ('Banner' logo no longer used, now script logo with no banner).
    1947    700s to 1000s
    1948    1100s to 3700s ('Script' logo no longer used, block logo used.)
    1949    2000s
    1950    3000s to 5000s
    1951    6000s to 9000s

  • • Factory Order Numbers with a Letter, 1952 to 1961.
      This letter preceeds the batch number within the Factory Order Number (FON), and denotes the year of manufacturer. Remember, the batch number is the first 4 digits of the FON, followed by a 1 or 2 digit sequence number (within the batch). This letter should be before the FON batch number. This was used on archtop models (ink stamped inside treble F-hole) and on flat top models (ink stamped on the neck block), from 1952 to 1961:

  • 
    
    Year    Letter
    ----    ------
    1952    Z
    1953    Y
    1954    X
    1955    W
    1956    V
    1957    U
    1958    T
    1959    S
    1960    R
    1961    Q

the only thing on the inside of the guitar is a G stamped on the neck block.  i was told when i bought the guitar he thought it was a 1968 based on research he had done , but admitted he really didn't know  i haven't pulled up the pick guard yet to see if any screw holes are there .   the previous owner bought the guitar in the early 80's from a shop in  Atlanta ,(no longer in business)  and gigged with it for years.  a mystery for sure as to what it is .  wish i could upload some pics

[RBSinTo]

58 minutes ago, deanc said:

the only thing on the inside of the guitar is a G stamped on the neck block.  i was told when i bought the guitar he thought it was a 1968 based on research he had done , but admitted he really didn't know  i haven't pulled up the pick guard yet to see if any screw holes are there .   the previous owner bought the guitar in the early 80's from a shop in  Atlanta ,(no longer in business)  and gigged with it for years.  a mystery for sure as to what it is .  wish i could upload some pics

Instead of pulling off the pick guard, why not put a mirror or cellphone camera inside the body to check for screw holes? 

RBSinTo

[Dave F]

2 hours ago, deanc said:

the only thing on the inside of the guitar is a G stamped on the neck block.  i was told when i bought the guitar he thought it was a 1968 based on research he had done , but admitted he really didn't know  i haven't pulled up the pick guard yet to see if any screw holes are there .   the previous owner bought the guitar in the early 80's from a shop in  Atlanta ,(no longer in business)  and gigged with it for years.  a mystery for sure as to what it is .  wish i could upload some pics

If you upload the photos to a site like flicker or Imgur then copy and paste the link in your post you will have no issues with file size.  Otherwise there’s not much help we can give you based on what you’ve provided. 

[Boyd]

2 hours ago, deanc said:

when i bought the guitar he thought it was a 1968 based on research he had done , but admitted he really didn't know 

I have real 1965 J-50, and the serial number is on the back of the headstock, like current Gibsons but a bit closer to the top. Seems to me that the other J-50's and J-45's I've seen from the late 60's also had the number right on the headstock but I'm no expert on such things. Without pictures it's pretty hard to help.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Boyd

[deanc]

7 hours ago, deanc said:

hey guys, trying to determine if the old j50  is a fake  Gibson.  no serial number , no label, bridge has been changed or never was an adjustable .  guitar has 3 dots on the fret board below the 12th fret which i hav not seen before.  guitar sounds amazing   can't seem to upload any pictures for viewing . get error message saying file to large , just a photo so not sure what is going on with that.  any help would be appreciated 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/193117612@N05/shares/SNR9BN

[zombywoof]

While Gibson added a position marker on the 17th fret around 1968 I have never seen a guitar with one on the 19th fret.   The tuners are replacements.  While I am no expert on Grover tuners I believe the lack of the patent pending stamp indicates they would date from after 1969.   

Edited May 31, 2021 by zombywoof

[Boyd]

FWIW, compared to my 1965 J-50...

Your truss rod cover is black and white, mine is just black (my 1974 J-50 is also just black)

You have individual Grover tuners, I have 3-on-a-strip Kluson tuners

You have a thin pickguard, I have a thick one. Yours looks like my 1974 J-50

The stripes around your soundhole look the same as mine

You have a fixed belly-down  bridge, I have a belly-up adjustable. Your bridge looks like my 1974 J-50

Your Gibson logo looks like mine

You don't have a serial number on the headstock, I do

You have two extra pearl dots on the fretboard. My 1974 J-50 has one more dot, but not two

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Boyd

[deanc]

24 minutes ago, zombywoof said:

While Gibson added a position marker on the 17th fret around 1968 I have never seen a guitar with one on the 19th fret.   The tuners are replacements.  While I am no expert on Grover tuners I believe the lack of the patent pending stamp indicates they would date from after 1969.   

The writing on the back of the tuners are faded but do say patent usa

[deanc]

I have a 1972 j45. It is as u described on the 74. Square shoulder 

[deanc]

Strange guitar. It plays great and sounds fantastic. I enjoy playing it whether a real Gibson or not. Just seems like a lot of trouble to mask a copy if that is what it is

[zombywoof]

30 minutes ago, deanc said:

The writing on the back of the tuners are faded but do say patent usa

Ok.  But the point remains that as far as  I know no Kalamazoo-made Gibson J45/50 (at least a stock instrument)  had Grover Rotomatics installed at the factory.  The Gibson J200 though had them as well as others.  By the way I was wrong about no Gibson having a position marker at the 19th fret.  I believe J45s built in Nashville in 1985 did have that feature.

Edited May 31, 2021 by zombywoof

[QuestionMark]

There's no volute on the neck, so its not from the Norlin 70s era.   The thin neck shape on backside of the neck seems to look like a 60s Gibson, but the photo may not capture the size of the neck..  The headstock shape looks authentic.    

QM aka "Jazzman" Jeff

Edited May 31, 2021 by QuestionMark

[Dave F]

Looks legit to me. I would guess there could have been some refinishing or touch up and lost it's stamp. The back of the head stock finish looks like a touchup.

I can't tell if the tuner post vary or if it's just reflections.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Dave F

[bobouz]

Looks to be a late ‘68 or early-mid ‘69.  Key to this guess is the bridge, which appears to be a replacement for an original belly-down adjustable bridge.  Use a automotive-type inspection mirror to see if the bridgeplate has additional holes left over from the adjusting posts of the original bridge.

Additionally, the pick guard & tuners look like replacements.  Along with the bridge, it would have been rather common in the ‘70s for a repairman to recommend changing these items out (to reduce weight on the top via the bridge & pickguard, and to improve tuning w Grovers).  Otherwise, from what can be seen including the back-bracing, the guitar appears to be period correct.

Edit:  Measure the width of the fingerboard at the nut.  If it measures 1-9/16”, the build date will be narrowed down to a portion of the mid-to-late ‘60s.

Interesting guitar - Thanks for sharing!

Edited June 1, 2021 by bobouz

[cunningham26]

bridge actually looks a bit wide to my eye, but it could definitely be the angle. my TRC on my '68 adj j45 is one ply black. As others have pointed out, this looks like it had a lot of work- new bridge, new tuners,  new TRC, and back of the headstock's orange peel indicates that was resprayed at some point. My best guess is some transition model or 2nd that got a new bridge (spot the chips in the upper right of the bridge photo- looks like it may have been a bit of a hack-job and maybe someone didn't like the 2nd designation, so maybe sanded down the serial and resprayed the back?

[deanc]

thank you guys for all the insight.  i will do what some has suggested to try and narrow down what i have.   much appreciated

[DanvillRob]

On 6/1/2021 at 8:38 AM, deanc said:

thank you guys for all the insight.  i will do what some has suggested to try and narrow down what i have.   much appreciated

I like the guitar.   

To me, I'd think it is a legit Gibson with work done to it.  

Play it and enjoy it!