Gibson RMA experience

[gossmanster]

This is what I would expect. I've worked at companies where the dealers and biggest customers had direct access to insiders and amazing service, and retail customers led a perilous existence. I also worked in an industry where the dealer network collapsed during a recession and sales moved to big box stores and online. Customer service suffered horribly until the companies fixed their support culture. With Gibson starting to sell direct, they are going to have to adapt. No service may work fine for cheap Epiphones, but for the high priced items you'd better have a dealer and be prepared to match Collings, PRS, Suhr, etc. after the coming post-covid guitar buying bust.

Its been 24 hours and I've heard nothing from support. I'll bet they have less influence and fewer connections in the factory than the dealers do...I've seen that culture from the inside too. where "customer obsession" is interpreted as "distributor obsession".

[BoSoxBiker]

1 hour ago, Dave F said:

It was one that I received and immediately wanted to return. Gibson fixed the issue I had with it and I was satisfied. Turned it around in about 6 weeks. 
Another one I had was from a smaller local store. The experience was not as good. Had a J200 with issues. Contacted the store with whom I had done a lot of business, they didn’t offer much assistance. The guitar was fixed and returned but within a year the problem returned. On my own, I contacted Gibson Montana, got a RMA and shipped it. This time they replaced it. Needless to say, I don’t buy much from that store anymore. 
I’ve had my best luck with CME, Bailey Brothers, The Music Outlet, and Rainbow guitars. I’ve tried dealing with Wildwood, Sweetwater and Music Villa but they just don’t budge much on their pricing for me and the service I get from the others is excellent. 

I was impressed with my brief communications with Bailey Brothers when I went Dove hunting. Good to know about CME. I did look at both their sites this Summer when reducing and improving my electric guitars this Summer, but ended up getting from Wildwood due to availability all 4 times. Even then it was luck. There today, gone tomorrow. Lost out on the first Tele I wanted. 

Have you ever heard of a dealer in Georgia called Humbucker Music? Not a Gibson dealer, but a huge line of Fender Custom Shops that I discovered as I went Tele shopping this Summer. Didn't the specifics I needed, but it looked like they had some serious stock on amps you don't see often.

[BoSoxBiker]

1 hour ago, gossmanster said:

This is what I would expect. I've worked at companies where the dealers and biggest customers had direct access to insiders and amazing service, and retail customers led a perilous existence. I also worked in an industry where the dealer network collapsed during a recession and sales moved to big box stores and online. Customer service suffered horribly until the companies fixed their support culture. With Gibson starting to sell direct, they are going to have to adapt. No service may work fine for cheap Epiphones, but for the high priced items you'd better have a dealer and be prepared to match Collings, PRS, Suhr, etc. after the coming post-covid guitar buying bust.

Its been 24 hours and I've heard nothing from support. I'll bet they have less influence and fewer connections in the factory than the dealers do...I've seen that culture from the inside too. where "customer obsession" is interpreted as "distributor obsession".

All of that sounds too familiar. The anomaly is within the big-box culture where the locals don't even have pull within their own world, let alone manufactures' worlds. My favorite local's staff turned over within a couple months right before the pandemic in large part because of this. They did not even have permission to match their own company's web site's pricing, and had to get regional sales manager approval to match anything bigger than a certain amount when dealing with competitors' offers. Even dealing with defects and such changed for them.

I think that's all part of the local environment these days. I was excited to go guitar shopping this Summer. Both big box stores were just awful places to be in. The one local we have doesn't have much to sell. I did find a nice Fender dealer 90 minutes away, but a 14 month wait. Yikes! I will go back there and to the local, though. For sure.  Just won't be able to get Gibsons.

[gossmanster]

Just to close this out. They offered me a J45 in cherry and when I asked whether I could wait for Vintage to come back or for a refund:

 

Thanks for getting back to me here at Gibson Brands. Gibson Montana has no plan to bring back the Vintage Cherry finish on a Hummingbird model. The Original Collection Hummingbird model is available in Antique Natural finish, as well as the Heritage Cherry Sunburst finish: https://www.gibson.com/Guitar/ACCFR6729/Hummingbird-Original/Antique-Natural . Warranty options include repair (when possible), or replacement with an instrument, with one of the same or most similar style and of a value comparable to the price of the original instrument.

I will simply eat the cost of selling the guitar myself. I am a huge Gibson fanboy, and I hope they right the ship eventually.

[thegreatgumbino]

Sorry to hear they don't carry that model any longer.  Are you limited to the J45 or could you try to get them to do a red Dove or red Orianthi model J200?

https://www.gibson.com/Guitar/ACCXCJ237/Orianthi-SJ-200/Cherry

https://www.gibson.com/Guitar/ACCXCJ237/Orianthi-SJ-200/Cherry

[gossmanster]

They did not mention any other guitars, which is interesting because the Vintage Cherry Dove is as close as you can get the H'bird I had. I want a Hummingbird (my wish would be the original guitar didn't go bad) and I have a maple J185, so it wouldn't have solved my issue, but it would make more sense and been a better gesture.

[Dave F]

On 9/8/2021 at 12:37 PM, BoSoxBiker said:

Have you ever heard of a dealer in Georgia called Humbucker Music? Not a Gibson dealer, but a huge line of Fender Custom Shops that I discovered as I went Tele shopping this Summer. Didn't the specifics I needed, but it looked like they had some serious stock on amps you don't see often.

Never heard of them. I have to watch and try to control my tele gas. I’m always seeing one I want. I was up to five of them before downsizing. I now have one and have to pick it up and play it to drive away the new gas attacks. 

[BoSoxBiker]

6 hours ago, Dave F said:

Never heard of them. I have to watch and try to control my tele gas. I’m always seeing one I want. I was up to five of them before downsizing. I now have one and have to pick it up and play it to drive away the new gas attacks. 

Don't get me wrong. I love Les Pauls and 335s. I have a nice pairing right now. That said, I just LOVE me a Tele. I sold my USA Standard and an MIM a few months ago to go a thicker neck. 3rd try should be here Tuesday. Right guitar, but needed a bit beefier neck from the one I received a few weeks back. Custom Shop 70th Anniversary Ltd Broadcaster with that nearly vintage wiring thing they did back then.  (.96" - 1.02" Arthritis buster neck.)

[Dave F]

6 hours ago, BoSoxBiker said:

Don't get me wrong. I love Les Pauls and 335s. I have a nice pairing right now. That said, I just LOVE me a Tele. I sold my USA Standard and an MIM a few months ago to go a thicker neck. 3rd try should be here Tuesday. Right guitar, but needed a bit beefier neck from the one I received a few weeks back. Custom Shop 70th Anniversary Ltd Broadcaster with that nearly vintage wiring thing they did back then.  (.96" - 1.02" Arthritis buster neck.)

I've had a couple Les Paul's. When I decided to downsize I decided to abandon the LP's because I feel I get that sound out of my Chet CG.

I moved a couple Tele AM Std and a couple B-Benders. I just like my Tele Select more and never mastered the bender thing. I have one of those new Bigsby Tremolo pedals on order that I anxious to try out on the Tele.

 

[BoSoxBiker]

10 hours ago, Dave F said:

I've had a couple Les Paul's. When I decided to downsize I decided to abandon the LP's because I feel I get that sound out of my Chet CG.

I moved a couple Tele AM Std and a couple B-Benders. I just like my Tele Select more and never mastered the bender thing. I have one of those new Bigsby Tremolo pedals on order that I anxious to try out on the Tele.

 

SweetI I love the look of Maple. Does that affect tone on these?

[Dave F]

29 minutes ago, BoSoxBiker said:

SweetI I love the look of Maple. Does that affect tone on these?

Not that I’ve noticed. It has an ash body with a maple top and maple trim. Sounds as good or better than any tele I’ve played. I swapped out the white pg for this solid maple. It has a tone bypass setup that produces a raw tele sound. Also has a variable radius fretboard that’s very comfortable with a modern C shaped neck. 

[BoSoxBiker]

38 minutes ago, Dave F said:

Not that I’ve noticed. It has an ash body with a maple top and maple trim. Sounds as good or better than any tele I’ve played. I swapped out the white pg for this solid maple. It has a tone bypass setup that produces a raw tele sound. Also has a variable radius fretboard that’s very comfortable with a modern C shaped neck. 

I thought that pick-guard was transparent at 1st and 2nd glances. It looks great. I've got what's called a "1950 Blackguard" neck back shape. Sort of a cross between the "U" and a "V". 7.25/9.5 radius. I lucked out and happened to test drive a thin-line with this neck on it about 90-minutes away. Heavy relic turned me off or I might have gotten it. I returned a "Thin Skin" and got the Broadcaster just because of it's neck. That neck came in less than was indicated and the taper was different that the one I test drove, so a slightly thicker one is on the way.  Rolled edges helps a lot, too. It's a battle of Arthritis verses a bunch of 'Keef style open-G songs.

[Boyd]

How did we go from Gibson RMA's to Telecasters? 🤔

Well anyway, I got my first Tele back in 1969 and had several over the next few years. Had a 1972 thinline that I really liked but sold it to buy my J-50 Deluxe in 1974. Missing it, I got one of the Mexican Telecaster thinlines about 10 years ago that looked just like the old one but the pickups were terrible. No matter, electric guitars just don't interest me anymore and it hasn't been out of the closet for years now. But that's a very pretty one Dave!

[62burst]

4 hours ago, Dave F said:

. . .  I swapped out the white pg for this solid maple. 

Oh- I thought that it was either a slightly amber, but clear pickguard, or that it was just a reflection of the walls of your guitar room, which were tiger stripe maple.

Nice birdseye on that neck, too. That's a very maple-y Tele.

2 hours ago, Boyd said:

How did we go from Gibson RMA's to Telecasters? 🤔

 

😀.

 

[62burst]

Oh, yeah, the RMA thing. Almost forgot. . . 

Sorry to hear this happened to you, and to your guitar. The setup specs you'd measured when you first got the guitar were of an acoustic with quite low action, not unlike setup specs for an electric, so the Hummingbird was already walking a thin line of accommodating any movement due to the environment it lived in over the Seattle winter and spring. Seattle, which ranks no. 7

in the list of the 10 most humid cities in the U.S.

 

On 9/5/2021 at 4:22 PM, gossmanster said:

 . .  the guitar sounded wonderful, better than I expected, and was extremely playable. Being slightly OCD, I checked the relief and measured the action, and the setup seemed perfect: 5/64 on the low E and 3/64 on the high

 In the spring, I started to notice some buzzing, but I really didn’t see a problem until a friend of mine visited and commented the action was low. When he left, I re-measured and found that not only had the action dropped, but playing the high strings in the 7^th to 9^th frets were buzzing and even choking out.

“Wow!”. The neck angle was much too high. . .

OCD, or just guitar geek, it's good that you checked the string heights when the Hummingbird first came in. Strange that these measurements changed by Spring- it could be a perfect storm of conspiring things that may've occurred: not only humidity levels, but it may also be something that has been suspect both here, and for any guitar builder whose output has suffered backlogs from current world events (read: "Covid"). In their haste to get guitars out the door, manufacturers might possibly be trying to play catch-up. Also good to keep in mind that the Bozeman plant builds guitars at a relative humidity of ~ 45%  RH. Most luthiers will not get into any setup work on a guitar until it has stabilized for a couple of days.

Here's an article on Taylor's website: https://www.taylorguitars.com/support/maintenance/symptoms-wet-guitar. The photo of how the back of the over humidified guitar swelled around the tail block was interesting, as was how a straight edge line from the top of the frets was now pointing low on the bridge, resulting in high action at the upper frets. But you'd mentioned trouble/buzzing/choking out at frets 7 -> 9, so unless some changes to truss rod adjustment, this would not be the case with what you were experiencing (?). 

 

[gossmanster]

I did not have a wet guitar. I am very familiar with Seattle humidity (I have many guitars and many friends here with guitars). Because of the temperatures in Seattle, the outside humidity is much higher than the inside humidity usually. I have hygrometers in almost room and in the summer they are in the 45% to 55% range and in the winter they are in the 30% to 40% range (when we have a cold snap it may go down to 25%). Believe me (or believe my skin) we do not have a high humidity problem in Seattle, we have a low humidity problem parts of the year, but even that isn't bad compared to Montana. I have humidifiers in some rooms and I store the guitars in cases with humidipaks. 

This guitar had a neck angle issue, but the opposite of the usual one. In fact, the luthier told me "Well...the good news is this guitar will never need a neck reset".  This article describes the issue best: http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/NeckAngle/neckangle.html

If you have a guitar that needs a neck reset when you look down the neck it points at the bottom of the bridge and the relief is super high. This guitar was the opposite...the bridge was already high and the neck pointed above the top of the bridge. To quote the article above:

Of course, there is such a thing as a "reverse" neck angle problem, usually a result of poor manufacture or repair. IF the action is way too low, and the saddle is really high, it usually means that the neck angle was set too far "back."

I had three luthiers (mine, Guitar Center's, and Gibson's) tell me this was the problem with the Bird.

[62burst]

7 minutes ago, gossmanster said:

I did not have a wet guitar.

Well ok, then. By the time someone gets to CollingsVille, one would most likely be into keeping the acoustics happy.

So what do you think caused the change in the neck angle?

[gossmanster]

2 minutes ago, 62burst said:

So what do you think caused the change in the neck angle?

I do not know. I've never seen anything like it, and all the luthiers indicated it was a manufacturing issue...which is presumably why Gibson RMA'd it.

[BoSoxBiker]

gossmanster, what were your action measurements that you mentioned when your friend left that day?  Also curious if you happen to know the distance from bridge to straight-edge.

General question to all - hasn't Gibson been over-setting necks for a little while as a matter of strategy or habit? I don't know what the spec is on the distance between the bridge and the bottom of the straight edge should be. None of mine touch the Bridge, nor did they when new. 

 

[gossmanster]

I don't have the measurements anymore. I recall it being about half what I had measured originally.

One of the folks I talked with said that many customers primarily strum cowboy chords and do not like any buzzing, so they manufacture guitars with a high bridge knowing that it is easier to shave a bridge down for fingerpickers than shim it up for those who like a higher action. Could be the same thinking on neck set.

[BoSoxBiker]

31 minutes ago, gossmanster said:

I don't have the measurements anymore. I recall it being about half what I had measured originally.

That's a significant difference. My big season changes normally amount to 1/64 to 1.5/64 difference. I keep two saddles for 4 of 5 guitars. Summer/Winter. The neck almost never needs more than a 1/16th turn.

35 minutes ago, gossmanster said:

One of the folks I talked with said that many customers primarily strum cowboy chords and do not like any buzzing, so they manufacture guitars with a high bridge knowing that it is easier to shave a bridge down for fingerpickers than shim it up for those who like a higher action. Could be the same thinking on neck set.

That's been the story for years, but it seemed to change right before the pandemic with some even erring to the too low side. A couple product demo videos even had some string too close noisiness to them.

Regarding the RMA experience and not being thrilled with the color of the replacement.  -  Do you have any feeling of whether or not you might have been more happy with the outcome if your months of communication battles and the ensuing delivery issues had not stressed you further. I know it definitely had a huge impact on the outlook of my HC J45 when it came in tacky and smelled awful. It's in good shape now, plays great and sounds just like it should. I've played it every day for a month and I still have a little distance to cover to bond with it, so to speak. 

[BoSoxBiker]

On 9/11/2021 at 12:04 PM, Boyd said:

How did we go from Gibson RMA's to Telecasters? 🤔

 

I rambled. BUT, I just remembered as typing my note to the OP. The only reason I knew my RMA replacement was coming my way was because I happened to be on the UPS site checking on the delivery of a guitar I sold and shipped. That guitar was the USA Tele.  🙂 

[gossmanster]

5 hours ago, BoSoxBiker said:

 -  Do you have any feeling of whether or not you might have been more happy with the outcome if your months of communication battles and the ensuing delivery issues had not stressed you further. 

All the issues left me resigned to a poor result. Conversely, I would have been happy if I’d got the guitar like I bought originally despite the lengthy process. 

[gossmanster]

New article in Acoustic Review about neck angle. It explains why an overset neck can’t be simply reset, but not why the issue developed after I got the instrument home. 
 

https://acousticguitar.com/how-to-fix-neck-angles-on-guitars/

[gossmanster]

Funny how Gibson can make the right color for a dealer, but not a customer

 

https://reverb.com/item/45285520-gibson-custom-shop-hummingbird-standard-vintage-cherry-sunburst