Old Hummingbird ?

[Vofcr]

Hi, 

Ive came across what looks like old hummingbird acoustic but I'm on short notice and not sure of authenticity, received few photos from seller 

Can you tell me your thoughts ?

Thanks

[zombywoof]

My eyes really suck but are those cracks running down from the edge of the fingerboard to the soundhole?  While it could be a fig newton of my imagination, if so, determining whether the guitar is legit or not takes a back seat to a possible  condition issue which may or may not have been properly fixed.  As to whether the guitar is the real deal or not others would be far better able to help you when it comes to Bozeman-made guitars than me.

[cunningham26]

Looks legit, 70s norlin era with cracks in the top. like zomby said that latter part is the the issue and you'd want to see if they have been repaired and how well. 

Sight unseen I wouldnt pay more than maybe $1000 for it as it sits- plenty of those are clunkers when they aren't damaged, and a top crack isn't going to help

[Jinder]

I’d be very wary. Lots of issues around authenticity with this one…it look like an Epiphone Hummingbird that has been chopped about to look like a ‘70s Bird. 
 

Immediate bells that rang are:

Serial number places it between ‘72 and ‘75, which means the bridge is wrong (this period of Bird had a larger belly-down bridge), the neck angle is wrong (saddle is too tall, typically Norlin era acoustics had an underset neck with a very low saddle, so unless this has had a neck reset that is a major tell), the pickguard is wrong (thin and printed not thick and engraved), the heel is wrong (not shallow enough) and the grain on the back looks significantly different on the outside to the inside. It also has the three-dimensional sheen of cheap Sapele laminate as used on Epiphones and similar.

The headstock faceplate also looks wrong, and appears to be walnut with an Abalone inlay as per the modern Hummingbird Sustainable guitars. A genuine ‘70s Bird would have the slightly more rounded points to the logo and would be MOP set into an Ebony or Mahogany faceplate. 
 

The fingerboard-end top cracks indicate that the neck block has moved also, which is an expensive fix. 
 

In short (to précis the above nerdfest I just posted!) it’s fake and looks knackered.

[Vofcr]

1 hour ago, Jinder said:

I’d be very wary. Lots of issues around authenticity with this one…it look like an Epiphone Hummingbird that has been chopped about to look like a ‘70s Bird. 
 

Immediate bells that rang are:

Serial number places it between ‘72 and ‘75, which means the bridge is wrong (this period of Bird had a larger belly-down bridge), the neck angle is wrong (saddle is too tall, typically Norlin era acoustics had an underset neck with a very low saddle, so unless this has had a neck reset that is a major tell), the pickguard is wrong (thin and printed not thick and engraved), the heel is wrong (not shallow enough) and the grain on the back looks significantly different on the outside to the inside. It also has the three-dimensional sheen of cheap Sapele laminate as used on Epiphones and similar.

The headstock faceplate also looks wrong, and appears to be walnut with an Abalone inlay as per the modern Hummingbird Sustainable guitars. A genuine ‘70s Bird would have the slightly more rounded points to the logo and would be MOP set into an Ebony or Mahogany faceplate. 
 

The fingerboard-end top cracks indicate that the neck block has moved also, which is an expensive fix. 
 

In short (to précis the above nerdfest I just posted!) it’s fake and looks knackered.

hi, thanks for your valuable input (noticed you here in some other topics on birds when i was doing my digging after work 😛 )

i think you're right - too many things don't match up especially this pickguard (can't really be justified)

the other thing is that 70s bird would have a block inlays not parallels, parallels would be either pre 70s (in that case other spec don't match as screw-regulated saddle, no klusons, or screw pickguard towards end of 60s and again pickguard itself) or past 80s.

cracks extending the fretboard lines are consistent with some serious issue that i didn't know about but explained quite well here: 

 

2 hours ago, cunningham26 said:

Looks legit, 70s norlin era with cracks in the top. like zomby said that latter part is the the issue and you'd want to see if they have been repaired and how well. 

Sight unseen I wouldnt pay more than maybe $1000 for it as it sits- plenty of those are clunkers when they aren't damaged, and a top crack isn't going to help

what saddens me most - European rep of Gibson customer support confirmed authenticity for me based on same photos though stating it's pre 70s... 
and as much as i wish i was wrong about it - i think it's you that are in error about this and @Jinder is sadly right...

still - going to see it in flesh later on 😉

thanks once again for everyone and hope you have a great day 

[Vofcr]

also sticker looks dodgy - no _____________ but .................. 
not stamped but printed...

outline on genuine different as well 

genuine sticker (what i believe is!) photo attached for comparison  

for anyone having same issues - hope this helps... 

 

Edited October 7, 2021 by Vofcr
adding_photo

[cunningham26]

6 minutes ago, Vofcr said:

also sticker looks dodgy - no _____________ but .................. 
not stamped but printed...

outline on genuine different as well 

genuine sticker (what i believe is!) photo attached for comparison  

for anyone having same issues - hope this helps... 

 

I was just looking at that as well, and comparing with this '67 at folkway. there's no Union Made on the label, but otherwise looks consistently inconsistent. headstock logo looks the same and you can almost see the grain on the folkway one- perhaps a sanded down headstock then stained? 

the serial on the back of the headstock puts it in '67, but it being imprinted over the finish doesnt seem right. Jinder's note about the neck heel is probably the most obvous thing that this isn't truly gibson, or if it was, it is no longer even close.

[ksdaddy]

The only thing that looks unquestionably Gibson is the cracks alongside the fingerboard extension ha ha.

A couple additional observations:

They didn't come with Grover 102C tuners from the factory in the 60s and 70s that I am aware of.  If these were changed out, where's the footprint of the old ones?

My '64 SJ has a white heel cap. The H-Bird should be the same.

The sunburst is too "small" for that era. 60s sunbursts barely covered the rim. And no fading? None?

And I agree with everything Jinder said.

 

[jchabalk]

It's tough to tell but it does looks like it's got the narrow 60s nut too.

I'd stay away for all the reason that have been mentioned.

I bought a 76 hummingbird that shares a lot of visual similarities to this guitar. I spent a good deal of money getting it fixed up thinking i'd have an excellent guitar in the end and it... didn't work that way.  I've played some really good norlin era guitars but it seems like a crap shoot and i definitely had a negative first-hand experience.

[Raul Rehlmann]

In foto 2, is that a volute? above repair of the broken headstock?

[MissouriPicker]

9 hours ago, Jinder said:

I’d be very wary. Lots of issues around authenticity with this one…it look like an Epiphone Hummingbird that has been chopped about to look like a ‘70s Bird. 
 

Immediate bells that rang are:

Serial number places it between ‘72 and ‘75, which means the bridge is wrong (this period of Bird had a larger belly-down bridge), the neck angle is wrong (saddle is too tall, typically Norlin era acoustics had an underset neck with a very low saddle, so unless this has had a neck reset that is a major tell), the pickguard is wrong (thin and printed not thick and engraved), the heel is wrong (not shallow enough) and the grain on the back looks significantly different on the outside to the inside. It also has the three-dimensional sheen of cheap Sapele laminate as used on Epiphones and similar.

The headstock faceplate also looks wrong, and appears to be walnut with an Abalone inlay as per the modern Hummingbird Sustainable guitars. A genuine ‘70s Bird would have the slightly more rounded points to the logo and would be MOP set into an Ebony or Mahogany faceplate. 
 

The fingerboard-end top cracks indicate that the neck block has moved also, which is an expensive fix. 
 

In short (to précis the above nerdfest I just posted!) it’s fake and looks knackered.

 

4 hours ago, ksdaddy said:

The only thing that looks unquestionably Gibson is the cracks alongside the fingerboard extension ha ha.

A couple additional observations:

They didn't come with Grover 102C tuners from the factory in the 60s and 70s that I am aware of.  If these were changed out, where's the footprint of the old ones?

My '64 SJ has a white heel cap. The H-Bird should be the same.

The sunburst is too "small" for that era. 60s sunbursts barely covered the rim. And no fading? None?

And I agree with everything Jinder said.

 

Phil and Daddy, you guys are awesome!  Very impressive knowledge.  Cool!

Edited October 7, 2021 by MissouriPicker

[Vofcr]

Hi guys 

As said I went to see it in flesh yesterday 😉

It looks good other than concerns which we mentioned, maybe it's 80s ? I haven't checked 80-84 range as can't really see Gibson fitting this sort of label or pickguard on high end guitar...

Heres some more photos though for educational purposes 😉

https://ibb.co/album/rkG8Zr

Thanks everyone for responses 🙂

 

 

[Jinder]

My best guess is that it’s a “lawsuit era” Japanese copy, possibly a Greco, Terada, Suzuki or similar, that has had a replacement walnut headstock faceplate and label to make it look like a Gibson.

It has a lot of the hallmarks of the ‘70s Japanese copies (garish and poorly applied sunburst, thick polycellulose lacquer finish, exaggerated yellow top staining, spec from a decade before such as the parallelogram inlays and belly-up bridge, cheesy thin printed pickguard) but has been cleverly doctored to appear to be a mid-70s Gibson. 
 

If we look a bit deeper on a forensic level, the lacquer on the headstock and upper neck area has been oversprayed recently-it has some stippling/orange peel effect which is a clear tell for nitro recently applied over old poly or similar which has been exposed to cleaning products that may contain silicone, such as household polish etc. This tells me that the incumbent faceplate is not original, as Gibson have only used Walnut as a faceplate material recently, and it has never been a stock faceplate material on a Hummingbird prior to the current Hummingbird Sustainable. 
 

The new Walnut faceplate has nice grain, and has been chosen well by the luthier who did the work, as it compliments the fretboard grain nicely. However, this is another tell about the authenticity of the guitar. This fretboard isn’t the Indian Rosewood that has been used by Gibson for Hummingbird fretboards since the Brazilian supplies ran out. The colour and graining indicate to me that it’s probably Jacaranda or Pau Ferro,  both less expensive and more readily available tonewoods that were common in Japanese built acoustic guitars in the ‘70s. Likewise the bridge. 
 

The label, on a forensic level, also looks far too fresh to be genuine. There is no humidity-related peripheral ink bleed into the paper grain, no fading of the label or printed typefaces, no curling or deterioration at the edges of the label, no lifting of the periphery due to age related glue failure…I have 15-20yr old Gibsons with labels in a much worse condition than this one. The serial number pegs it as being between ‘72 and ‘75 and the label is simply not in the condition that a 46-49yr old piece of paper and the glue that holds it down would be. Also, the typeface of the  “GIBSON” logo on the label looks squashed or distorted, which makes me even more convinced that it’s been faked. Cleverly faked, but not cleverly enough.

None of that is to say that lawsuit era Japanese acoustics are bad instruments, I owned a Kiso Suzuki Hummingbird copy for many years and wrote a great deal of songs with it, used it on a couple of records and loved it. I had a Terada Dove for a while too which was a kind of junky but fun instrument. If you can bag this one for the sort of money that it’s worth as a lawsuit guitar, there is every chance you can fix it up and enjoy it.

As it stands though, paying Gibson money for it would be a mistake in my opinion. I’m really shocked that Gibson Europe told you it was genuine. Whoever did the due diligence on it needs to do their homework!

[Vofcr]

5 hours ago, Jinder said:

My best guess is that it’s a “lawsuit era” Japanese copy, possibly a Greco, Terada, Suzuki or similar, that has had a replacement walnut headstock faceplate and label to make it look like a Gibson.

It has a lot of the hallmarks of the ‘70s Japanese copies (garish and poorly applied sunburst, thick polycellulose lacquer finish, exaggerated yellow top staining, spec from a decade before such as the parallelogram inlays and belly-up bridge, cheesy thin printed pickguard) but has been cleverly doctored to appear to be a mid-70s Gibson. 
 

If we look a bit deeper on a forensic level, the lacquer on the headstock and upper neck area has been oversprayed recently-it has some stippling/orange peel effect which is a clear tell for nitro recently applied over old poly or similar which has been exposed to cleaning products that may contain silicone, such as household polish etc. This tells me that the incumbent faceplate is not original, as Gibson have only used Walnut as a faceplate material recently, and it has never been a stock faceplate material on a Hummingbird prior to the current Hummingbird Sustainable. 
 

The new Walnut faceplate has nice grain, and has been chosen well by the luthier who did the work, as it compliments the fretboard grain nicely. However, this is another tell about the authenticity of the guitar. This fretboard isn’t the Indian Rosewood that has been used by Gibson for Hummingbird fretboards since the Brazilian supplies ran out. The colour and graining indicate to me that it’s probably Jacaranda or Pau Ferro,  both less expensive and more readily available tonewoods that were common in Japanese built acoustic guitars in the ‘70s. Likewise the bridge. 
 

The label, on a forensic level, also looks far too fresh to be genuine. There is no humidity-related peripheral ink bleed into the paper grain, no fading of the label or printed typefaces, no curling or deterioration at the edges of the label, no lifting of the periphery due to age related glue failure…I have 15-20yr old Gibsons with labels in a much worse condition than this one. The serial number pegs it as being between ‘72 and ‘75 and the label is simply not in the condition that a 46-49yr old piece of paper and the glue that holds it down would be. Also, the typeface of the  “GIBSON” logo on the label looks squashed or distorted, which makes me even more convinced that it’s been faked. Cleverly faked, but not cleverly enough.

None of that is to say that lawsuit era Japanese acoustics are bad instruments, I owned a Kiso Suzuki Hummingbird copy for many years and wrote a great deal of songs with it, used it on a couple of records and loved it. I had a Terada Dove for a while too which was a kind of junky but fun instrument. If you can bag this one for the sort of money that it’s worth as a lawsuit guitar, there is every chance you can fix it up and enjoy it.

As it stands though, paying Gibson money for it would be a mistake in my opinion. I’m really shocked that Gibson Europe told you it was genuine. Whoever did the due diligence on it needs to do their homework!

i'm surprised as well as i keep validation from customer support at high regard 😉 lucky though that i'm always double checking and simultaneously posted here (good decision! haha :P) 
email and post was during my worktime and after work i've done some research on my own that matched your observations...

does that mean that we can work at Gibson Customer Support? Cause sure as hell i'd love to investigate and get paid for that haha 😄 i can talk about guitars day&night 

cheers once again and i know it's off topic now - but yes i can't agree more - japanese copies are great if you're on budget or you don't care about branding and extra appointments but sheer sound 🙂

 

[Twang Gang]

As to what the service rep in Europe knows about these older guitars I notice that although he supposedly works for Gibson he refers to Gruhn's Guide to get the specs.  Not to say that Gruhn doesn't know what he's talking about, but he shouldn't know more than the manufacturer itself.

[Leonard McCoy]

lol

[Jinder]

On 10/8/2021 at 4:59 PM, Vofcr said:

i'm surprised as well as i keep validation from customer support at high regard 😉 lucky though that i'm always double checking and simultaneously posted here (good decision! haha :P) 
email and post was during my worktime and after work i've done some research on my own that matched your observations...

does that mean that we can work at Gibson Customer Support? Cause sure as hell i'd love to investigate and get paid for that haha 😄 i can talk about guitars day&night 

cheers once again and i know it's off topic now - but yes i can't agree more - japanese copies are great if you're on budget or you don't care about branding and extra appointments but sheer sound 🙂

 

I’d love that job. I was a Gibson endorsee artist from 2007-2009 when my former band was signed to Sony, and I had a hand in the concept of the “flubber” pickguard that was (is?) used in SJ200s for some years. Lovely people to work with. They are a great company and the London HQ in Rathbone Place (as it was then, not sure if it’s still there) is like a playground filled with amazing instruments. 
 

Here is a video we filmed there in 2008…I’m in the middle, the SJ200 Western Classic was Gibson’s, the Dove on the left played by my bandmate Simon was mine, and Gavin on the right is playing his trusty late ‘90s J45 Rosewood. He has owned it from new and still has it now, although it’s VERY road worn these days!

 

[DanvillRob]

7 hours ago, Jinder said:

I’d love that job. I was a Gibson endorsee artist from 2007-2009 when my former band was signed to Sony, and I had a hand in the concept of the “flubber” pickguard that was (is?) used in SJ200s for some years. Lovely people to work with. They are a great company and the London HQ in Rathbone Place (as it was then, not sure if it’s still there) is like a playground filled with amazing instruments. 
 

Here is a video we filmed there in 2008…I’m in the middle, the SJ200 Western Classic was Gibson’s, the Dove on the left played by my bandmate Simon was mine, and Gavin on the right is playing his trusty late ‘90s J45 Rosewood. He has owned it from new and still has it now, although it’s VERY road worn these days!

 

Just Freakin' EXCELLENT!

[BoSoxBiker]

5 hours ago, DanvillRob said:

Just Freakin' EXCELLENT!

What you said!

That J-45 Rosewood sounded very nice. No wonder he's kept it and used it.

[Jinder]

On 10/19/2021 at 9:28 PM, BoSoxBiker said:

What you said!

That J-45 Rosewood sounded very nice. No wonder he's kept it and used it.

Thanks guys!!

Yes the RW 45 is an absolute gem. Really warm but with great articulation. Bill Puplett, the chap in London who is guitar tech for Noel Gallagher and Johnny Marr (and also co-designed the Rare Earth and Mimesis pickups with Mike Vanden) does Gavin’s setup work and every time I’ve picked up the RW it’s played like absolute butter, effortless.

[Peter Z]

On 10/19/2021 at 8:58 AM, Jinder said:

I’d love that job. I was a Gibson endorsee artist from 2007-2009 when my former band was signed to Sony, and I had a hand in the concept of the “flubber” pickguard that was (is?) used in SJ200s for some years. Lovely people to work with. They are a great company and the London HQ in Rathbone Place (as it was then, not sure if it’s still there) is like a playground filled with amazing instruments. 
 

Here is a video we filmed there in 2008…I’m in the middle, the SJ200 Western Classic was Gibson’s, the Dove on the left played by my bandmate Simon was mine, and Gavin on the right is playing his trusty late ‘90s J45 Rosewood. He has owned it from new and still has it now, although it’s VERY road worn these days!

 

That’s wonderful, Jinder!

I think, I told you that you influenced me to get my Dove. Nice to see one of the Doves that inspired you.

[j45nick]

Jinder, thanks for posting that. It was truly wonderful.

I'm amazed every time I hear your voice.