A good (dread-)sound is made of more than bass and sustain

[PatDie]

Hey folks,

I haven't been into playing acoustic guitar for long, it's been a little more than two years now and I just recently rewarded myself with a life-long acoustic buddy, a Gibson J-45 Standard VS.

And what I want to do with this post is invite anyone just recently discovering the different sonic spheres of acoustic guitars (especially dreadnoughts) to not let yourself be drawn to the most obvious characteristics of a guitar that you'll notice after your first strum: how much bass there is and how long the notes sing. These seemed to be the most appealing characteristics when I started to look for a new guitar.

And then I've tried so many different guitars over months to be able to develop a feeling of what sound characteristics actually speak to me. Big and boomy sounding guitars such as a Martin D28 and a HD-28 I held in my hands became more unappealing along the way, I was much rather drawn to the sweet tones and the melody of each note a certain guitar would produce, listen to what the guitar does to being played with different styles and attacks, sit in front of the guitar and have someone experienced play it, feel how the sound translates into vibration in the body, compare it to records that I thought sounded very appealing for their acoustic guitar part. And I was quite amazed to experience the very big and obvious differences between different dreadnoughts.

I noticed that playing acoustic guitar and deciding on what a good sound is is so much more than I initially thought. And that made me understand why there are so many discussions on tone, what guitar sounds best, which sonic characteristis are desirable and the big science behind tone. There would have been no chance to have a Gibson J-45 Standard be my first pick. Quick decay, not the biggest bass in the line. It happened a year after I played it first that I appreciated the melody the notes produce, the dry punchy thump and the quicker decay of the single notes. And yes, once I settled on a J-45, the search wasn't ended. They are just too unique with each and every single model. But the more you play different ones, the more different ones you want to hear. As if my ears develop throughout the whole process and with the help of particularly this forum to make up my mind about what to focus on, the individual voice of a certain J-45 was what finally spoke to me. And that doesn't make a Martin D-28 or HD-28 worse than my J-45. They'll find another player who will just be as much in awe playing them as I am with my J-45.

So the lesson (if there is any) for starters or anyone looking into buying their first more expensive guitar: Don't let yourself be told what a good sound is or which sonic characteristics should be associated with a good acoustic guitar. Don't base your decision on what to order after listening to a couple of youtube samples. There are just too many variables defined by the way the guitar is being played by you, which certain model of a line you're holding in your hands, in which mood you're in and what kind of music you want to play on it. And if you can, try as many guitars as possible. Your ears will develop quicker than you might think.

Cheers,
Pat

[RBSinTo]

That's a whole lot of verbiage just to say " Different strokes for different folks".

RBSinTo

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

When the J-45 spoke to you, what did it say?

The two Martin's you tried are RW back and sided vs. your J-45 which is Hog, so you are comparing apples to oranges. And Gibson's bass usually decays quickly and Martins tend to sustain a bit longer, no matter what the tone wood.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Sgt. Pepper

[olie]

10 minutes ago, RBSinTo said:

That's a whole lot of verbiage just to say " Different strokes for different folks".

RBSinTo

 

Try to be nice.

[Sgt. Pepper]

1 minute ago, olie said:

Try to be nice.

That guy is so mean I'm gonna send him a personal message to be nice.

[olie]

10 minutes ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

That guy is so mean I'm gonna send him a personal message to be nice.

Oh- good - you again!

[RBSinTo]

40 minutes ago, olie said:

Oh- good - you again!

My thoughts exactly.

Glad to see he's back.

RBSinTo

[RBSinTo]

54 minutes ago, olie said:

Try to be nice.

I'm always nice.

At least as nice as everyone else here.

Difference is, you just don't like some of the things I say.

RBSinTo

[RBSinTo]

54 minutes ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

That guy is so mean I'm gonna send him a personal message to be nice.

That's me.

Mr. Meanie.

RBSinTo

[zombywoof]

Hey, if you have reached a certain age it is not mean but just eccentric.  

I have already responded to this poster on another forum so no point in repetition.  But while I do not know about the rest of you it took me many years to figure what what sound worked for the way I approached a guitar.  And for me it was easier than it is today as when it came to a "good" guitar there was really only Martin, Gibson and Guild.  Plus you did not even have to factor in stuff like whether the guitar if say a Gibson has wider angle "Vintage" X brace or the narrower standard X brace.   When I started playing the standard Gibson bracing was the shorter non-scalloped X with a narrower angle.  Unless you bought used it was all you could get.

In the end though I made peace with Gibsons precisely because they did not have the after strum resonance I heard with particularly Martins.  To my ears that is all about the low end which drops off and quickly gets out of is own way.  Works for me real well,  Does not mean it works for the next guy though.    

Edited October 8, 2021 by zombywoof

[olie]

8 minutes ago, RBSinTo said:

I'm always nice.

At least as nice as everyone else here.

Difference is, you just don't like some of the things I say.

RBSinTo

You're always nice - sure. You and Pepper -always nice!

[generaldreedle]

I have a Martin HD 28 VTS (baked top).  I chose it over the HD 28 vintage because it was drier and not as boomy.  That being said it is still more resonant than my other guitars.  I have Nick Lucas maple that’s really deep but not resonant, a Guild maple jumbo that’s not resonant at all and my beloved Southern Jumbo that I wrote about earlier that’s gotten deeper as it’s aged but not boomy.  I love them all, and just to be clear, the number of guitars is not an indication of my ability just happenstance- two of them I got used because they were just great deals impossible to pass up 

[kidblast]

The peculiar thing with acoustics, as players we have the worse seat in the house.  

And probably why a lot of makers are putting sound ports in the upper bouts. 

 

 

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

8 minutes ago, olie said:

You're always nice - sure. You and Pepper -always nice!

I may be mean, but I tell it like it is. Like when I was in the service. As a Chief and Senior Chief it was job to tell the Captain what he needed to hear not what he wanted to hear. Telling the Captain what he wanted to hear was an officers job.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Sgt. Pepper

[MissouriPicker]

Guitars……There are as many opinions on how each one sounds as there are pairs of ears listening.  I know the sound I like.  Someone else might not like it, but I do.

[Jinder]

The magic is in what dances between the notes. Not the overtones, sustain, bass, treble, mids or anything else. That undefinable thing that connects the player to the guitar. I’ve had it with a handful of guitars I’ve owned. Both my SJ200s, a 1990 Hummingbird, my ‘96 Dove, my ‘67 J45 and my Hummingbird 12. Maybe my maple AJ, although not instantaneously-that has been a slow burner. A Martin OM18V and 00DB, both of which I traded away like an idiot.

I don’t think it’s particular to a body style or even a particular model. I owned three Doves before I found the jewel. I’ve owned several Hummingbirds also, including a stellar ‘08, but the jewel was the 1990 that is also sadly now gone due to financial troubles during lockdown. 
 

It’s like lightning when you find it…rare and the most copacetic feeling. I think it’s why we all hunt for the grail guitar, the one that lights up the darkest corners. 

[E-minor7]

Thanx for a good starter ^

There are of course many facets to comment and and I won't cover them all.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Just want to add that yes, the more you know and feel / know your feelings, the bigger the challenge of finding the right acoustic guitar will be.                                                                          Let's not forget that you can sharpen and intensify your hearing till it almost seems you're listening with the entire body and gettin' psykotic at the same time. By then it will dawn that 1 guitar probably ain't enough. Neither 2, , , 3 will be the minimum. And in such triangle your knowledge and further exploration will grow, , , if not endlessly then for a loooong time.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Here in this senior phase where my playing actually has improved, I have found that the way an instrument 'reacts' becomes highly important. The quickness of the response and the decay play a big role and activating a pretty high number of single-notes during a song has to with this. I don't want too much undefined sonic 'traffic' in the air - and Gibsons, especially the Hummingbird, answers that need. I have few (if any) guitars that are so clear and defined (without losing core'n'soul).

Well, anyways, , , this got longer than expected (the subject must be of some interest 🤓😵) - but apart from that you should post some sounds. Would expose your perspective. 

Edited October 9, 2021 by E-minor7

[Lars68]

I think one important aspect to take into consideration when picking an acoustic guitar is our playing style and actual skill level. A lot of players chose guitars based on what their favorite player use or what they want to be able to sound like, disregarding if that guitar is suitable for the skill set of the player. For example, one of my favorite models is the Gibson L-00. They are just small boxes of infinite coolness, but whenever I play one (or one like it) I sound like crap. I just can't play blues licks or much of any single note stuff. I strum 95% of the time and 00s are just not a good fit. So I have always left the L-00 behind in disappointment and with a slight knock to my confidence as a player…

Lars

[E-minor7]

1 hour ago, Lars68 said:

I think one important aspect to take into consideration when picking an acoustic guitar is our playing style and actual skill level. A lot of players chose guitars based on what their favorite player use or what they want to be able to sound like, disregarding if that guitar is suitable for the skill set of the player. For example, one of my favorite models is the Gibson L-00. They are just small boxes of infinite coolness, but whenever I play one (or one like it) I sound like crap. I just can't play blues licks or much of any single note stuff. I strum 95% of the time and 00s are just not a good fit. So I have always left the L-00 behind in disappointment and with a slight knock to my confidence as a player…

Good point - still if you really dig the little model why not have one (fx a beaten ex). You probably couldn't resist reaching for the sweety an it might teach you new tricks. 

[zombywoof]

5 hours ago, Lars68 said:

I think one important aspect to take into consideration when picking an acoustic guitar is our playing style and actual skill level. A lot of players chose guitars based on what their favorite player use or what they want to be able to sound like, disregarding if that guitar is suitable for the skill set of the player. For example, one of my favorite models is the Gibson L-00. They are just small boxes of infinite coolness, but whenever I play one (or one like it) I sound like crap. I just can't play blues licks or much of any single note stuff. I strum 95% of the time and 00s are just not a good fit. So I have always left the L-00 behind in disappointment and with a slight knock to my confidence as a player…

Lars

I never thought of an L-00 as a "small" guitar.  My '32 12 fret L1 though has a sound you can get lost in.   It has a hair trigger response and a looser more wide open  sound  to which is added a parched dryness and certain clarity which seems to come with age.  The other night I ran though Robert Johnson's "Love in Vain,"  MS John Hurt's "Spike Driver's Blues" and the Stones "Honky Tonk Women" all of which I play in Open G6 tuning.  If that guitar could talk I swear it would have yawned and asked "what else you got."

As to the dreads/jumbos I have four which I play regularly -  a 1942 Gibson J50, 1956 Epiphone FT79,  a 1969 Harmony Sovereign H1260, and a 2013 Fairbanks Smeck.  Each has its own voice  and personality.  But that is the fun of it in seeing what you can pull out of them.  It just may take a bit of time for muscle memory to kick in.

Edited October 9, 2021 by zombywoof

[BoSoxBiker]

Sometimes a guitar can steer for a little while. Good fun when 20 minutes goes by and your song has morphed into something from what you set out to play.

15 hours ago, E-minor7 said:

I have found that the way an instrument 'reacts' becomes highly important.

I agree with this, but I didn't understand just how individual an attribute this can be until I got my CS J45 Historic. It's loud and proud, seems to be balanced with the semi-quick bass decay thing. It's a 3lb, 13oz light-weight that some might call a "cannon" or maybe even a "Banjo Killer" if I used the wrong pic/string combination. There's just something about it that throws me off. It's like my timing is off and it's affecting my ability to play guitar in a musical manner. It's my 3rd Gibson baked top, 3rd Gibson CS and  2nd Historic collection. Yet somehow, it feels foreign.

On 10/8/2021 at 4:14 PM, Jinder said:

The magic is in what dances between the notes. Not the overtones, sustain, bass, treble, mids or anything else. That undefinable thing that connects the player to the guitar. I’ve had it with a handful of guitars I’ve owned. Both my SJ200s, a 1990 Hummingbird, my ‘96 Dove, my ‘67 J45 and my Hummingbird 12. Maybe my maple AJ, although not instantaneously-that has been a slow burner. A Martin OM18V and 00DB, both of which I traded away like an idiot.

I don’t think it’s particular to a body style or even a particular model. I owned three Doves before I found the jewel. I’ve owned several Hummingbirds also, including a stellar ‘08, but the jewel was the 1990 that is also sadly now gone due to financial troubles during lockdown. 
 

It’s like lightning when you find it…rare and the most copacetic feeling. I think it’s why we all hunt for the grail guitar, the one that lights up the darkest corners. 

That "it" feeling is impossible to convey. Took me a while to learn what everyone was talking about. It's a significant point in my acoustic guitar journey that I will remember. That said, I wonder something. I've only felt that in one brand new guitar. It was last weekend at the World of Bluegrass fesitival. The Bourgeous booth in the trade show. Baked top slope-D with sinker hog back. None of the others came close. I wonder, though, if I would have known it was an "it" guitar 5-6 years ago? Or even 3 years ago. 

[62burst]

2 hours ago, BoSoxBiker said:

. . . last weekend at the World of Bluegrass fesitival. The Bourgeous booth in the trade show. Baked top slope-D with sinker hog back. None of the others came close. I wonder, though, if I would have known it was an "it" guitar 5-6 years ago? Or even 3 years ago. 

5-6 years ago, something else would have qualified as my "it" guitar. Probably even 3 years ago. What the ear wants to hear can, and hopefully, change with time. YMMV.

[BoSoxBiker]

3 hours ago, 62burst said:

5-6 years ago, something else would have qualified as my "it" guitar. Probably even 3 years ago. What the ear wants to hear can, and hopefully, change with time. YMMV.

That, my friend, is a good point.

The one thing I did learn was never to again say "this is the one I'll keep forever." Interestingly enough, the one that I used to say that about was one that I searched high and low for a specific sound. I was still chasing sound when I got the Hummingbird. It was another 18 months with that one before I figured out the "it" thing. I think I ever posted about it as it was starting to happen. Wow Factor Guitars, IIRC.