Kurt Cobain

[Bluemoon]

After reading through all six pages' date=' I'm still confused. Was Cobain a junky coward? Or a mentally ill junky coward?

Or an unlucky Junky? Or a poetic genius who died tragically as a junky? Or a tragic reminder of the problems of our medical system, who was a junky? [/quote']

 

Who knows.

[dc3c46]

Maybe just a ****** bag who's now ancient f'n history.

 

 

 

+1

[Gitfidl]

First of all' date=' Gitfidl, if you'd actually understood what I wrote, you would see that *nowhere* did I or Homz advocate the government giving anything to anyone. [/quote']

 

I am positive you are not unaware that socialized health care was a MAIN issue inthe Obama-Hillary race and then again in the Obama-McCain race. If you are going to complaint about how substandard the existing health care system is THEN you are making an implicit statement.

 

AND the other party you referred to always states explicityly that is his preferrence.

 

And that makes Kurt-something a mere door opener to get on the topic of substandard health care. It's transparent as all get out.

 

As for the VA' date=' well...they've worked really hard for years as an institution to make sure that nobody gets a diagnosis of PTSD. [/quote']

 

I know about the VA I had to sign a stack of waivers before I mustered out. Ther is an old saying that the VA is your second chance to give your life for your country. Which branch did you serve in?

 

Our veterans are currently waiting at least 6 months trying to get needed health care when they come out of the military and into the VA system.

 

You voted. So did I. That's what we get to say about it.

 

Military suicides are at their highest rate in 3 decades.

I know about depression in the military (I was Vietnam era). Most veterans have experienced a variety of negative psychological experiences (but dealt with it -- yes).. the 1000 yard stare is one of them. That is part of what was GIVEN for your freedom.

 

Those last 2 tidbits are straight from the VFW's magazine' date=' btw. [/quote'] Which post do you belong to? What do YOU do for VFW assistance to Veterans? Do you contribute to the VFW home? Do you contribute time to drive them to the VA or help them with paperwork? Do you take an active role in VFW or AL programs?

 

 

I never said any one person was more important than another.

The implication is clear.

 

The man had obvious problems and he needed help. Like a *lot* of people' date=' he didn't get it. [/quote'] Then he did not seek it. The phone book is full of shrinks. Pick one an go there. Most Pastors know several and are willing to help you get an appointment. You call them and make an appoinment. [i know I went to a marriage counselor for 6 months. I have a friend in AA and getting all kinds of help IMMEDIATELY. Seek and Ye Shall Find' date= Ask and Ye Shall Receive, Knock and It shall be Opened unto You!)

 

Most patients with bi-polar disorder go about 10 years after symptoms appear before they are diagnosed.

Most lung cancer patients ignore warnings for the same kind of time -- it's a choice to seek help. You are free to avoid Doctors if you want to. Some religions prohibit it (and it is a free country)

 

Referrals to psychiatrists (the *only* ones of those healthcare professionals you mentioned who can actually prescribe medications) usually take 6 months between referral and actually being able to see a doctor.

Wrong.

 

That leaves most of us in the hands of our primary care physicians and many of them are not asking the questions to determine if a patient may have a mental disorder.

Wrong.

 

If you've got a physical ailment' date=' it's pretty dang easy to see and most people will go to a doctor. If you have a mental illness' date=' there are still a helluva lot of people who will never mention it to their doctor because they don't want the "label." [/quote'] It's a free country and that is a choice they are free to make.

 

Nobody mentioned anything about government hand-outs' date=' but YOU. [/quote'] This entire thread is about government health care .. beginning with the remark about how substandard the health care system is and THAT being the reasons whats-his-name did not get proper treatment

 

The very people that *deserve* to have our government take care of their health care are flat-out being ignored so they can save some money. (BTW' date=' the same folks were being pressured to not diagnose traumatic brain injuries as well). [/quote'] Understood. You voted. Now you got it. That's change. (and THAT is what government provided universal health care will look like -- only worse)

 

And I don't know who you are referring to as the person who introduced the topic and then complained about the responses' date=' but I did *not* introduce the topic of Kurt Cobain. [/quote'] who said what has become very obscure at this point .. nothing was said about guitars

 

I did' date=' however, complain about the mean-spirited and ignorant responses it was drawing.[/quote']

Honesty is not mean spirited and "politically correct" is inherently dishonest. So don't make incendiary political statements and then claim the responses are mean spirited. If someone is an addict then it is dishonest to call it something else or to viewl honesty as "labelling." A cow's butt is a cow's butt by any other name.

 

The first step in solving any problem is to be honest and recognize the problem. (isn't the alternative called "being in denial??")

[Homz]

Seriously man, read her posts. Your presumptions are stunning.

 

I only jump in here because I was referenced in your first response, but I am a vet and BTW I do know how the system works.

 

I wont jump into the specifics of this argument because I don't think your counter points make any sense to what the point of her posts were. I think your working to hard to discredit Wicked1 for something she didn't say. I'm not simply defending her (she doesn't need me to do that). I would be saying the same thing to you if it had been another poster.

 

But, I do say your opinions on the matter are valid. I think you could have just stated your opinions without referencing anyone and there would have been no conflict. IMHO

 

That's reasonable, isn't it?

[Gitfidl]

I am not trying to discedit anyone .. but the remark was made that the failing health system was the reason this fellow died. That's wrong. That's all. Then it is like a tennis game -- back and forth rebuttal-rejoinder-surrebuttal-surrejoinder. It's not the health care's fault if somebody smoked two packs a day and the result is untreatable cancer (I have at least 10 relatives GONE by that cause). It is not the health care systems failure if somebody did himself in by whatever means (drugs, alcohol, fat, road rage, bar fight, sex, racing a train) .. it's not somebody elses fault if we make bad choices and they ultimately kill us.

 

I'd rather talk about guitars. We all own one. The topic is more interesting. They are certainly a matter of personal choice. I assume we all consider them important. There is plenty to talk about (repairs, care, use, parts, sound, amplifiers, music, other brands, temperature, humidity, aging, cases, airline travel, security, insurance, counterfeit). (Even that can have some strong opinions but at least we'd all be on the same page most of the time)

 

I'd rather NOT (personally) condemn the U.S. or Canada or the President or workers or managers or investors or (race, religion, national origin, etc.). I'd just as soon NOT talk about wars, missiles, military matters, right/wrong, good/bad, motives, marriages, kids, mortgages, benefits, news sources, court cases, guns, boats, trucks, cars ... all of which we cannot change one iota.

 

Others have posted saying the same thing -- let's talk about guitars and things related to guitars. AND .. Gibson guitars or things related to Gibson guitars.

 

I mean nobody any offense but I have views and so do you and I am not interested in reconciling views with anyone -- I am too old. Everybody has a right to an opinion (you know .. they are like AH and everyone got one).

[wicked1]

I am not trying to discedit anyone .. but the remark was made that the failing health system was the reason this fellow died. That's wrong. That's all.

 

You *still* don't get it!!! I never said the health care system was failing!! I never mentioned universal health care. I said that our health care providers fail to properly screen & care for the mentally ill!! There's a big damn difference. Didn't "blame" the health care system for Kurt Cobain's death. I *do* blame the system that doesn't train our doctors to properly screen people for possible mental disorders. The American Academy of Pediatrics just this week came out with a new recommendation that *all* adolescents should be screened for symptoms of depression whenever they come in for an office visit.

 

And, as for your "rebuttal" that I'm just "wrong" that only psychiatrists can prescribe drugs---well, of the resources you mentioned---only a licensed physician (of any speciality) can prescribe medication. AA has *no* licensed counselors. It is purely peer support. Your local pastor cannot provide you with anti-psychotic medication for your schizophrenia. A psychologist cannot prescribe medication. If you don't have the letters MD or DO (or in some states, NP or PA) after your name, you are not going to write a script for a damn thing. If you don't believe me, go ask your doctor.

 

The difference between your 10 yrs of lung cancer vs. 10 yrs of bi-polar disorder is that a person is likely to notice if they have trouble breathing and there is no repercussion, no shame in going to the dr for a physical disorder. YOUR ignorant and dismissive responses (along with those of your friends) just reinforces what I was saying about why a person may not seek help.

 

If you're so interested in guitars only, then why bother opening a thread about somebody that you can't even identify? From every response I've ever seen from you, I'm left wondering if we even read the same thread. You are taking what you *think* I believe and trying to use it to make a strawman argument when it's nothing close to what I said to begin with.

[solacematt]

Heroin addiction and a gun collections can only lead to one thing.

 

I have no sympathy for idiots.

 

I like you

 

 

Yeah' date=' the thing that pisses me off so much is how everyone now thinks of him as some crazy musician. The reality was that he wasnt, and anybody who attempts to say otherwise obviously has no understanding of music. His music was repetitive, very similar (from one song to the next) and quite frankly, very boring. Dont get me wrong, I personally do like some Nirvana, but I also like every other style of music as well, and to be honest writing the same song over and over again (for 3 albums straight) does not show creativity, it shows the lack of. Also, i agree with deepblue and Neoconman and their views on his suicide.

 

Seriously, I just dont understand why we put so much remembrance into just another addict coward who would rather die then actually deal with his problems.[/quote']

 

Thank you

 

 

 

Thank you for this' date=' I totally agree.... Poor poor man; the only thing he could complain about was his ole lady. How selfish can you be to take your life and allow your child to grow up without you in their life.[/quote']

 

I'm so glad that this forum isn't full of people praising this talentless prick who completly screwed up his daughter for life.

 

 

Now to stop quoting people. I know it sounds mean, but I'm glad he's not around anymore. Actually you know what, i wish he was. You know why? Because people wouldn't be worshipping him like they have since he died. The guy shoots himself and all of a sudden he's some sort of friggin musical martyre. He didn't do anything. People forget that Nirvana never sold as well as Pearl Jam, Alice In Chains, Soundgarden, and Smashing Pumpkins in albums or ticket sales. They theatres, while the other mentioned bands played arenas and stadiums. People just like to martyr idiots who die of overdoses. What exactly did River Phoenix or Shannon Hoon do that was so important. Nothing at all. But they died because of drugs, so we're supposed to worship them. Whatever

[DamienAzrael]

Kurt Go-Bang...A thread on a dead junkie....wow...I haven't been on here in a while....Busy with school and such, but I head there was a thread on this scumbag so I felt the need to add my two cents...The guy (I was gonna say man, but his actions proved he's not a man) was pathetic....He was too much of a whiney little puss and took the easy way out leaving his daughter fatherless....That's just wrong....No matter how bad **** may be if you've got a family you should be a little more grown up....So I'm glad the loser is gone....Besides....he set guitar playing back for years and made it more acceptable to be a shitty player....Good riddance.

[Rocky4]

Maybe just a ****** bag who's now ancient f'n history.

 

 

 

I assume you don't play rock 'cause you don't have a ****in' clue what rock is about

[wicked1]

As a musician, I think Kurt Cobain was nothing special. As a songwriter, ok---there was some talent there. But as a human being (which so many of these people claim have a sacred right to life), he had problems. Maybe he was a scumbag. Didn't know him personally. But I know that simply being sick and needing help that--for whatever reason--was not given, doesn't make you scum.

 

You can't judge an entire life by the way a person dies. (Well, maybe some of you can....)

[Rocky4]

Wake up !!!! For a brief moment, the record companies didn't serve you a product! For a brief moment, real music found it's way to the mainstream! Who gives a **** what he thought or did, his music was honest. He might have not been the greatest guitar player of all time, but he had that unexplainable factor X that few musicians show.

[DamienAzrael]

Wake up !!!! For a brief moment' date=' the record companies didn't serve you a product! For a brief moment, real music found it's way to the mainstream! Who gives a **** what he thought or did, his music was honest. He might have not been the greatest guitar player of all time, but he had that unexplainable factor X that few musicians show. [/quote']

 

Well...if you read his stupid diaries and journals they released in 2002 to go along with the "Best Of" record you'd know he WANTED to be famous like all the people he claimed to dislike...Just acted like he didn't want it to be "cool" or whatever....A band like Pearl Jam (who I can't stand) is more "real" than he was because they stopped making videos for a while so they wouldn't be seen as pop stars, but Cobain who claims to have hated the spotlight was all about making videos and being on MTV...So yeah...He was a product....He just sold better after he was dead.

[Gitfidl]

Wicked1 -- Let's just say you are right. OK? You win. I surrender

 

I do not have a GP and yet I have a cardio doc and got 2 stents without having a GP. My good friend just last month died of lymphoma -- was on chemo for 2 years -- no GP. A former colleague in Illinois is being treated for dementia (that's a mental illness)- no GP. My friend in Orange County was getting Prozac prescriptions from a shrink (MD) .. no GP. Kids in her classes were getting Ridalin -- no GP. I realtor friend of mine DENIED she was alcoholic for at least 10 years -- as soon as she decided she was -- she found a shrink and is getting treatment from an MD shrink (her lawyer may have referred her to him) . Last week three women at folk jam comparing notes on various plastic surgery procedures

they had --- no GP involed (eye-bags, eye lids, whatever they get around their eyes (a tight pony tail). Ensenada is LOADED with plastic

surgery clinics -- it is an economy.

 

No, pastors don't prescribe medicine. Pastors know shrink MD's and social workers because SO MANY people go to Pastors seeking help with that kind of problem. They REFER people to MDs (all over southern California). (many self admitted into a psychiatric hospital with drug ailments) If you go to a church every so often the preacher will say "please come to me if you are struggling with drug or alcohol problems and I will help. I have resources in the community." (they say the same thing about unemployment, spouse abuse and other family matters that often end up in the Pastor's office)

 

The Orange County Superior Court has on-going contracts with MD shrinks, psychologists, MSW's and can order people into their care

(hundreds of them). One of the many things that court retained MD's do it to hold people LONG enough to make sure that the urine they are giving is their own since many of the drug addicts (perhaps in Orange County and San Diego ONLY) borrow somebody elses urine and put it in their bladder with a catheter before a scheduled exam -- is that someone who is too shy to find an MD -- I don't think so.

 

BUT you are right. I can just tell that you have a lot of experience in these matters and that you know all about medical practices and how "the system" operates and how it traps poor unwitting souls into irreversable courses of action. SO you are right. You win. Hands down. If you do not mind I'd like to not do this any longer. I give up. OK?