Stung by warranty issue

[Larsongs]

1 hour ago, Rabs said:

**Customers who purchased product outside the U.S should contact their local distributor for the handling and resolution of all warranty issues as the above-described Gibson Gold Warranty is not applicable.

https://www.gibson.com/en-US/Support/Warranty/Gibson

It says nothing about the Retailer having any responsibility for Warranty Repair.. They are referred to as a Courtesy for Customers… 

If I were the OP I would go around them at this point & deal directly with Gibs USA Customer Service… It has been done by another member of this Forum & Gibson replaced the Guitar with a new one…

[MissouriPicker]

No matter where he bought it, I’d avoid any dealer that won’t give you a pro setup after you’ve spent $5500……Perhaps they knew there was an issue and they were just wanting to dump the guitar.

[Sgt. Pepper]

6 minutes ago, MissouriPicker said:

No matter where he bought it, I’d avoid any dealer that won’t give you a pro setup after you’ve spent $5500……Perhaps they knew there was an issue and they were just wanting to dump the guitar.

The store did not profit $5500. They had to give Gibson money to get it, so they could sell it. So what, they made $750, I’m guessing. Maybe more maybe less?

Edited March 2, 2022 by Sgt. Pepper

[MissouriPicker]

16 minutes ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

The store did not profit $5500. They had to give Gibson money to get it, so they could sell it. So what, they made $750, I’m guessing. Maybe more maybe less?

I’ve dealt like that with Sweetwater Guitars, Wildwood Guitars, and GC.   I have no idea what they paid for the guitars or made off of them…..just going by the fact that for that much money they shouldn’t sell a guitar that is not exactly what the buyer wants.  

[Sgt. Pepper]

5 minutes ago, MissouriPicker said:

I’ve dealt like that with Sweetwater Guitars, Wildwood Guitars, and GC.   I have no idea what they paid for the guitars or made off of them…..just going by the fact that for that much money they shouldn’t sell a guitar that is not exactly what the buyer wants.  

I don’t know what the make either, but we both know Gibson is paid in full for their cut when the guitar gets shipped to a store for them to sell. Weather SW makes $5 or $5000 at that point Gibson got paid.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Sgt. Pepper

[Tega.tm]

11 hours ago, MissouriPicker said:

No matter where he bought it, I’d avoid any dealer that won’t give you a pro setup after you’ve spent $5500……Perhaps they knew there was an issue and they were just wanting to dump the guitar.

This has been my opinion after the first time I took it back.. as with the issues I stated.. tbh if I was the shop guy, at that point I would’ve been worried about recourse and said first thing, ok let’s go to a quiet area and explain each bit and see where we are, as it might be something simple.. and then offered to check setup, as that was the issue.. but tbh i would’ve seen all the issues straight away and thought sh*t we’ve got a potential return here.. then sent it off back to Gibson.. but with it taking me  returning 3 times to get them to send it for assessment.. I’m starting to think they haven’t even done that.. I had stated I wanted a replacement so they aren’t losing out of a sale.. but the more they fob me off the more suspicious I get that it’s not just that it’s a hassle to return and order a new one.. and starting to doubt it’s new/ or authentic but obviously I’m trying not to get into that territory 🤦‍♂️ But it doesn’t all add up in my mind.. just saying.

[Larsongs]

56 minutes ago, Farnsbarns said:

It says exactly that. So does UK law. A number of UK residents have already said so. 

While the retailer won't necessarily do any warranty work on it and will usually liase with the manufacturer, or wholesaler, or whoever is next up the chain in their legal relationships, the consumer's legal relationship, point of contact and recourse is always the retailer, any deviation from that is by consent of the consumer and manufacturer.  

In the event a dispute turns legal, that will always be a case of the consumer litigating with the retailer. 

No. All it says is contact your Dealer for the handling & resolution….. Nothing about them being responsible for anything other than, possibly, courtesy….

As the old saying goes….. The big print giveith but the fine print taketh away…..

Edited March 2, 2022 by Larsongs

[Tega.tm]

1 hour ago, Farnsbarns said:

Not really. You can still approach the manufacturer bit the may refer you back to the retailer. 

 

What it ultimately means (in the uk) is that if after all is said and done, you still aren't satisfied, you contact trading standards local to the retailer, by email, cc'ing the retailer, including all details, dates, times, and written communications and wait for them to contact the retailer, who will probably cave in at that point. 

I'd do that now. 

 

This was what I was thinking about after I go to collect the guitar so I can attempt to ask them again for a replacement as I’m sure that when I go and look at it again and point out the condition is not acceptable and ask if they would be happy if the boot was on the other foot considering consumer rights act 2015 (after reading more about it)  Which I’m sure will be answered by either yes or some sort of deflection.. I will then take the guitar for a second opinion and then I’ll be writing to the head office for replacement stating replacement as is my right apparently.. not sure why it’s has came to this point though as I’ve been nice in communication and given them numerous chances to resolve 🤷‍♂️ I haven’t been aggressive or slanderous and this is why I haven’t named them yet.. as it is a national business with shops all around the uk and I wouldn’t want to tar them all with the same brush as I have only felt with 1 shop.. so maybe the head office/ customer support office will be a better bet? What do you think?

 

sorry if I’m causing hassle to you all. I guarantee you all that it’s not my intention. 👍

[fortyearspickn]

No hassle.  A couple of times I’ve been in a similar situation.  If you go to collect your guitar on a busy Saturday morning and (no doubt) find it still defective. You might try  asking for the manager.  Loudly tell him all the points you’ve made here. You just want a guitar that has no defects.  Sometimes making a scene works. Sometimes going to social media to  do the same thing does.  They monitor it, as do their Regional Managers. 

[Larsongs]

1 hour ago, Farnsbarns said:

OK. We'll, I have about 20 years of experience administering warranty claims in numerous industries, in the UK. Most recently I oversaw all warranty claims bookings for a £25m/year car retailer with 7 sites who sold new Audi,  Seat and Skoda. A long time before that, I handled warranty claims for Canon UK, a number of smaller IT retailers and my own retail business. 

No matter of your opinion I am extremely confident that I know the law around retail in the UK and I'm extremely confident you're wrong.

Not only that but there is a video of a UK barrister explaining that you are incorrect posted above. Are you really confident that your assumptions amount to better information than the word of a UK barrister of law? 

Respectfully, The wording is vague.. It would be difficult to prove by those words that a Retailer has any more responsibility than the courtesy to assist if they so desire.. There is nothing stating a Retailers responsibility to Repair or Replace the Guitar.. Or give the Customer a full Refund.. In my interpretation it is at the discretion of the Retailer whether or not they want to extend their courtesy…

Perhaps you could represent the OP & help him get it repaired, replaced or return for refund by the Retailer?

 

[Big Bill]

If my new car breaks down do I send it back to Detroit for warranty repair?

[rct]

9 minutes ago, Big Bill said:

If my new car breaks down do I send it back to Detroit for warranty repair?

Well, you could.  Prolly won't go well.

The Gibson Faithful do come in here and tell the long and dangerous stories of their dealings with Bozeman and Nashville and all that, and it is entirely probable to go that route if you want.  Service on a guitar, warranty or otherwise, should always start at the person who owned it before you did, the retailer.  No matter how you read the warranty, the business end of all of the warranty/service stuff is between the previous owner and the maker, not the consumer.  No matter how it works out in the end, the retailer and Gibson will have considerable paperwork to do.

Like I said, there will come a time and an instance where even the Gibson Faithful will not be able to bother the company with their warranty claims.  It appears to the Faithful that the wording of the warranty is vague and on their side.  The wording of the warranty is vague and on the side of the maker of the guitar, all they have to do is exercise and enforce their warranty.

Going straight to the maker is the exception to the rule until the maker uses the vagueness of the words to change the rules.

In this particular instance, the retailer is being completely sketchy about the whole thing, or, and I mean this or in the nicest way, the definition of an unplayable guitar in need of replacement is in the eye of the consumer.  If the guitar is set up to specs and it functions properly, you can say the neck needs a reset all you want, in their eyes it doesn't.  You can gripe about intonation all you want, intonation is easily done, it either works or it doesn't.  If this stuff is all good and all working, the retailer is handing a perfectly functioning guitar back to a customer who is probably suffering Buyer's Remorse, that's how they are going to see it.  If the guitar is whacked and this is a large reputable dealer in the UK then something is terribly wrong between Gibson, their Distributor, and the retailers in that Distributor Network.

So the owner can do all that, call Gibson, email this person, email that person, ship it back to America, all that blather.  They'll just send another just to make the whole mess go away.  Maker to consumer relations is the worst part of their day.  Retailer can replace it on the spot, or with the next delivery from the maker, that's why you go to them.

rct

[Rabs]

2 hours ago, Tega.tm said:

This was what I was thinking about after I go to collect the guitar so I can attempt to ask them again for a replacement as I’m sure that when I go and look at it again and point out the condition is not acceptable and ask if they would be happy if the boot was on the other foot considering consumer rights act 2015 (after reading more about it)  Which I’m sure will be answered by either yes or some sort of deflection.. I will then take the guitar for a second opinion and then I’ll be writing to the head office for replacement stating replacement as is my right apparently.. not sure why it’s has came to this point though as I’ve been nice in communication and given them numerous chances to resolve 🤷‍♂️ I haven’t been aggressive or slanderous and this is why I haven’t named them yet.. as it is a national business with shops all around the uk and I wouldn’t want to tar them all with the same brush as I have only felt with 1 shop.. so maybe the head office/ customer support office will be a better bet? What do you think?

 

sorry if I’m causing hassle to you all. I guarantee you all that it’s not my intention. 👍

If its DV247  then you are not alone.. I have seen a whole huge thread on how bad they are and I refuse to use their shops any more.

[jdgm]

If it's DV247....that explains everything about this thread.

Edited March 2, 2022 by jdgm

[Larsongs]

27 minutes ago, Farnsbarns said:

I could. I have a number of times in the past. If the OP sent me a message asking for my assistance in communicating with the retailer I would certainly help.

The wording isn't in the least bit vague in my opinion but that's a moot point because the law is quite clear. It's also well understood by most of us Brits.

Here's an article written by  trading standards officer in the UK. 

http://tradingstandardsblog.co.uk/who-is-liable-for-faulty-goods-the-retailer-or-manufacturer

And another written  by Which? (A highly respected consumer advocacy organisation in the UK)

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act-aKJYx8n5KiSl

And another written by ConsumerRightsUK...

https://www.consumerrightsuk.com/consumerights2015#:~:text=Your rights under the Consumer,since you made the purchase.

All of which confirm what all the Brits here, and a British barrister have all said.

Unless you've got some reference or source I'm not really sure you're opinions on this are useful going forward. Can we just say we've established the reality and no one cares any more, and just see if we can help the OP?

Yet the Retailer seems to be in disagreement. If what you say is true a simple letter to the Retailer from an Attorney, on their Letterhead, stating the Retailer is in violation of xxxxx Laws.. We demand repair, replacement or refund or we’ll Sue you in Court…. If what you say is true I can’t see a Retailer wanting to go to Court & losing….

[Sgt. Pepper]

Is it Wabbit season or duck season? It’s hard to keep up with his one.

It’s Gibson’s issue, it’s the stores issue. This is an official Gibson forum, and you would think they would maybe have an employee come in here and read some of the stuff we post, and get the answers for us. Until then it’s a fart in the wind.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Sgt. Pepper

[Tega.tm]

1 hour ago, Larsongs said:

Yet the Retailer seems to be in disagreement. If what you say is true a simple letter to the Retailer from an Attorney, on their Letterhead, stating the Retailer is in violation of xxxxx Laws.. We demand repair, replacement or refund or we’ll Sue you in Court…. If what you say is true I can’t see a Retailer wanting to go to Court & losing….

Just out of interest can anyone post what their measurement differences in relief on high and low e strings are at the 8th? I have a difference of around 6.5 thousands of an inch.. feeler gauge.010 & .003/4 (it’s in between the .003 & .004) if any of that makes sense?

[rct]

28 minutes ago, Tega.tm said:

Just out of interest can anyone post what their measurement differences in relief on high and low e strings are at the 8th? I have a difference of around 6.5 thousands of an inch.. feeler gauge.010 & .003/4 (it’s in between the .003 & .004) if any of that makes sense?

Capo at first fret.  Finger down on the low E, the fat one, last full fret of the guitar.

Feeler at 8th fret.  Gibson is shorter scale, the low point may be at the 9th.

.010 for ordinary strings, usually 9's and 10's.

That's it.  There is no comparison between them.  There is no measure one side and then the other.  If that is what you are doing and telling them something is wrong it is no wonder they are resisting you.

Get the specs, SOMEBODY here can set up a Gibson as fast as I can set up a Fender.  Get the numbers.  Measure at Fret X(8th for Fender), feeler gauge Point Zero Something(.010 for Fender), capo at first, fretted at last full fret, measure fat E, move truss to suit if needed.  You are done.

rct

[Larsongs]

2 hours ago, Farnsbarns said:

Actually it doesn't eork like that. Do you just imagine that your assumptions are fact or something. 

You go to trading standards  they ask the retailer to respond, if the retailer still won't help you will be asked to get an independent inspection. Based on their report trading standards will make a ruling. Then, if you still don't like the outcome you can  litigate. 

You can litigate without going through trading standards but it won't generally help your case and you risk being hit with costs even if you win. 

I guess the question the OP has to ask himself is, How much is his $5500.00 Damaged Guitar worth? Is it worth spending a few Hundred Bucks if need be? If it isnt' worth it to do what it takes to resolve the Issue then it's Case closed... 

Still, you may be a Barrister & may be correct as to the technical aspects.. Sometimes it takes thinking outside the Box to achieve the outcome you desire... 

Me. I do..... I've had to do it with Cars, Guitars, Amps & other things.. I'll go all the way up to the CEO of the Freakin Corp. if I have to...

I've made purchases in the UK that needed resolution.. And I did contact the Retailer & they were courteous & resolved the issue with excellent Customer Service..

Gibson is a World Co. If it were me after a hassle with the Retailer I'd go directly to Gibson Customer Service... I don't care if I lived Ethiopia! I'll go all the way to the CEO if I have to...

Edited March 2, 2022 by Larsongs

[Tega.tm]

55 minutes ago, rct said:

Capo at first fret.  Finger down on the low E, the fat one, last full fret of the guitar.

Feeler at 8th fret.  Gibson is shorter scale, the low point may be at the 9th.

.010 for ordinary strings, usually 9's and 10's.

That's it.  There is no comparison between them.  There is no measure one side and then the other.  If that is what you are doing and telling them something is wrong it is no wonder they are resisting you.

Get the specs, SOMEBODY here can set up a Gibson as fast as I can set up a Fender.  Get the numbers.  Measure at Fret X(8th for Fender), feeler gauge Point Zero Something(.010 for Fender), capo at first, fretted at last full fret, measure fat E, move truss to suit if needed.  You are done.

rct

I probably should have mentioned that I had checked them over the course a of week the low e (thin one) had changed with no adjustment to anything from.008 to where it is now and then wouldn’t tune or intonate properly. As I had said earlier it looked wrong as in twisted and that’s why I had been checking it, just to note any change to verify or dismiss which is why I’m at the point I’m at now. 

[Tega.tm]

5 minutes ago, Tega.tm said:

I probably should have mentioned that I had checked them over the course a of week the low e (thin one) had changed with no adjustment to anything from.008 to where it is now and then wouldn’t tune or intonate properly. As I had said earlier it looked wrong as in twisted and that’s why I had been checking it, just to note any change to verify or dismiss which is why I’m at the point I’m at now. 

Ment to say high e, sorry, 

[Tega.tm]

48 minutes ago, Tega.tm said:

Ment to say high e, sorry, 

Again I did follow Jim De Cola’s setup videos just to be sure I wasn’t doing anything different from what Gibson do before they send them out the factory.. 

[Tega.tm]

2 minutes ago, Tega.tm said:

Again I did follow Jim De Cola’s setup videos just to be sure I wasn’t doing anything different from what Gibson do before they send them out the factory.. 

and again I haven’t been rude or abrupt with anyone dealing with me from the shop, I’m just making sure that my money was well spent.. and like I said I had monitored a change and then crazing/cracking in the finish that grew longer by the day along the neck joint… so surely this is not normal behaviour for a guitar? I certainly have never encountered this on any of my guitars and some of them have traveled the length of the the country and back and on various camping trips etc.. these guitars have rarely needed more than a slight tweak in tuning at most.. and when they are hanging on the wall in the house for months on end without being played still stayed exactly as I left them.. so obviously all this has confused me with all the changes it’s been doing by itself..

[badbluesplayer]

Sounds like more of a setup issue.  There's no way they'll take a guitar back if it's a setup issue.  And you have to go to another shop or a trusted friend to get the setup checked by an independent expert.  Why not take it to another shop and ask them what they think?  There's lots of places that sell Gibson's that don't do setups very well.  If you spend $5000 on a Gibson and haven't set up at least like 10 guitars, don't mess with it.  You need a trusted pro.  If you're mad at the store for screwing you out of a decent setup, I hear you.  

From Dave at Memphis circa 2010 -

Hi I'm David the final inspector at Gibson Memphis. I can give you the factory spec info. on our setups. You will need a mechanics rule to do this properly.

 

To check neck relief: fret the low E at the first and 15th fret (not 12th) reach to the 7th fret and tap string. There should be a small space between string and fret - no thicker than a piece of paper. Do the same with the high E.

ACTION: fret low E at first fret and measure the distance from the bottom of the to the top of the 15th fret. It should be 5/64". Do the same with the high E, measurement should be 3/64". Now measure the string height at the nut; underside of the string to the top of the fret. Low E and A should measure 2/64", D and G =1.5/64" and B and high E = 1/64". If string height at nut is correct, recheck string height at 12th fret with strings open. Measurement for low and high E's should be the same as measurement taken at the 15th.

 

Pickups: Fret low E at 22nd fret and measure pickup height from underside of string to point on pickup closest to string. Bridge pickup should be 3/64" (I think the 3/64" is a typo, it should be 3/32") , neck pickup should be 4/32". Fret high E at 22nd fret, distance for both pickups should be 3/32".

 

Play test: Play every string at every fret checking for buzzes. Bend High E string 1 and 1/2 steps, beginning at the sixth fret and ending at 22nd, checking for "choking" and to make sure string stays in nut notch.

 

Each 1/64 of an inch equals about 0.4 mm, so,

1/64" = 0.4 mm.

2/64" = 0.8 mm.

3/64" = 1.2 mm.

4/64" = 1.6 mm

5/64" = 2.0 mm.

6/64" = 2.4 mm.

[Tega.tm]

1 hour ago, badbluesplayer said:

Sounds like more of a setup issue.  There's no way they'll take a guitar back if it's a setup issue.  And you have to go to another shop or a trusted friend to get the setup checked by an independent expert.  Why not take it to another shop and ask them what they think?  There's lots of places that sell Gibson's that don't do setups very well.  If you spend $5000 on a Gibson and haven't set up at least like 10 guitars, don't mess with it.  You need a trusted pro.  If you're mad at the store for screwing you out of a decent setup, I hear you.  

From Dave at Memphis circa 2010 -

Hi I'm David the final inspector at Gibson Memphis. I can give you the factory spec info. on our setups. You will need a mechanics rule to do this properly.

 

To check neck relief: fret the low E at the first and 15th fret (not 12th) reach to the 7th fret and tap string. There should be a small space between string and fret - no thicker than a piece of paper. Do the same with the high E.

ACTION: fret low E at first fret and measure the distance from the bottom of the to the top of the 15th fret. It should be 5/64". Do the same with the high E, measurement should be 3/64". Now measure the string height at the nut; underside of the string to the top of the fret. Low E and A should measure 2/64", D and G =1.5/64" and B and high E = 1/64". If string height at nut is correct, recheck string height at 12th fret with strings open. Measurement for low and high E's should be the same as measurement taken at the 15th.

 

Pickups: Fret low E at 22nd fret and measure pickup height from underside of string to point on pickup closest to string. Bridge pickup should be 3/64" (I think the 3/64" is a typo, it should be 3/32") , neck pickup should be 4/32". Fret high E at 22nd fret, distance for both pickups should be 3/32".

 

Play test: Play every string at every fret checking for buzzes. Bend High E string 1 and 1/2 steps, beginning at the sixth fret and ending at 22nd, checking for "choking" and to make sure string stays in nut notch.

 

Each 1/64 of an inch equals about 0.4 mm, so,

1/64" = 0.4 mm.

2/64" = 0.8 mm.

3/64" = 1.2 mm.

4/64" = 1.6 mm

5/64" = 2.0 mm.

6/64" = 2.4 mm.

Thanks for the the reply, my post about watching the video possibly sounded like I’m a YouTube give it a go kinda guy sorry, I’m well versed in setup and have been playing and setting up for many years. I was just trying to state I had done everything to Gibson spec and the guitar can’t play without issues. I have written all the measurements of the guitars string height at nut, action at 12th relief at 8th.. played all strings on all frets.. checking to rule out setup as the issue but found the neck was moving of its own accord and had written the new setup it had relaxed into then repeated the Gibson factory setup and so on.. to start with the guitar played in tune but wouldn’t play above 12th on any strings without fretting out.. and I the seen it had a noticeable hump going on.. to which I took it back.. to be told “no it’s fine but anything you want done will be chargeable works”.. I am not a fan of letting anyone else touch my guitars, cars, motorcycles,  etc.. I do all works myself due to random issues that suddenly appear in someone else’s hands.. so I thought I would ask the question as I felt I was being fobbed off and also thought, I’ve never owned a Gibson before so maybe it need’s to settle more.. which was me trying to justify the problem in my own mind.. and basically they said yes to let it settle but spoke to me in quite a condescending manner which was annoying, but I thought ok I’ll follow your instructions… said thanks and took it back home.. unfortunately I’m not really a scene making type of person and like to think people are honest and good in general so I’ve not been as pro active or insistent as others would’ve been.. and I am now at this juncture where I feel taken advantage of because of my nature.. I have worked in hospitality when I was young and appreciate the sh*t customers can try and give so I try not to be that guy.. but it seems to be biting me in the ar*e..