WTB: 1943 Gibson J-45 Specific Specs.

[Sgt. Pepper]

2 hours ago, Raul Rehlmann said:

Maybe if you had all of the money you put into that awesome vinyl collection of pre-recorded music you could make some of your own music on some vintage guitar whose attributes could only be appreciated by acoustic cork sniffers who don't want to admit you can have just as much fun on a cheap re-issue.

I've been collecting vinyl since I was 8.  Plus when I started buying records they were $3.99 a pop. Yeah nowadays vinyl is $20 - $30 a pop. I only buy select stuff I never had or replacing stuff I foolishly got rid of or stuff that is special editions of live albums. All in all I may spend a total of $300 a year on vinyl. 

[zombywoof]

12 hours ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

I've been collecting vinyl since I was 8.  Plus when I started buying records they were $3.99 a pop. Yeah nowadays vinyl is $20 - $30 a pop. I only buy select stuff I never had or replacing stuff I foolishly got rid of or stuff that is special editions of live albums. All in all I may spend a total of $300 a year on vinyl. 

I remember paying about $1.69 for mono LPs.  Stereo albums cost $1.00 more so I put off buying them.  The first stereo LP  I recall buying was Dylan's "Highway 61 Revisited."  I am in the same boat as you though as I tend to seek out LPs I either had let go of or better copies of those I still have.  

[zombywoof]

15 hours ago, Raul Rehlmann said:

Maybe if you had all of the money you put into that awesome vinyl collection of pre-recorded music you could make some of your own music on some vintage guitar whose attributes could only be appreciated by acoustic cork sniffers who don't want to admit you can have just as much fun on a cheap re-issue.

I swing both ways in that I do own old Gibsons but also play a Fairbanks RI of a Roy Smeck.  I have also remained head over heels in love with Harmony Sovereigns since the day I could tell a good guitar from a can of tuna and will never get why anyone would turn up their nose at one as a guitar which is not "good enough" for them.   

You just do not get it though.  While I have never felt any need to explain why I play the guitars I do, with the vintage stuff sometimes it comes down a unique sound.  I can sit here and wait till pigs fly for you to come up with a new/newish factory guitar which captures the sound and feel of say my 0 size 1920 L3.   As to why it would be a long wait, I will take a wild guess that if you factor in the skill and time it takes to carve a top and back plate and then throw in their lo-fi sound there is not going to be a whole lot of appeal to modern ears so there is no money in it.

Other times it is something less tangible.  To me no guitar on the face of the planet speaks as eloquently to a specific time and place as a Banner Gibson.  While it sounds corny the feeling I get with my '42 J50 is that I do not as much own the guitar as I have been appointed its keeper.   As to sound, while as has been said if you pass on one Banner chances of finding another which sounds the same are not real good, it remains the only guitar that no matter how long I have owned it every time I pull it from the case, I utter a silent "whoa" and thank those ladies who built it.  I am sorry but this is the kind of stuff you cannot put a price tag on.  

[AnneS]

So I’ve had the pleasure of playing a ‘46 LG-2 this week (per another post), and I have played as many 40s/50s Gibsons as I could at the various guitar shows and such. Some better than others; a few that were particularly sweet.

This one? It has the “it” factor for me—something special to my ear. I could try to describe it, but suffice to say—nothing has felt so good in my hands. Like it plays me, instead of vice-versa…

[dhanners623]

I see on Facebook that the OP found a ‘43, albeit one with a truss rod. Says he spent $16K on it. Good for him. I hope he finds it fulfilling….

[Sgt. Pepper]

9 hours ago, dhanners623 said:

I see on Facebook that the OP found a ‘43, albeit one with a truss rod. Says he spent $16K on it. Good for him. I hope he finds it fulfilling….

You typed $16K and that is not a typo, right? I guess TR's are expensive.

[zombywoof]

All I want to know is where are those guys willing to shell out that kind of scratch on a guitar when I need them.

[Sgt. Pepper]

18 minutes ago, zombywoof said:

All I want to know is where are those guys willing to shell out that kind of scratch on a guitar when I need them.

Apparently they come here asking, and then go somewhere else.

[j45nick]

11 hours ago, dhanners623 said:

I see on Facebook that the OP found a ‘43, albeit one with a truss rod. Says he spent $16K on it. Good for him. I hope he finds it fulfilling….

Interestingly, the one flagged here for $15,000 seems to match the specs of the one he ended up buying. I wonder if he ended up buying the one he previously rejected because it had a trussrod?

That combination of features doesn't come along that often.

[dhanners623]

There’s a Facebook group for Gibson Banner Heads and this is what he posted (along with photos):

I came to these groups looking for a ”White Whale” (a 1943 hog top J-45 with a huge three piece laminated maple neck, no truss rod). Instead I found a Unicorn. A near-mint, all original, one family owned, 1944/45 hog top J-45 with a HUGE three piece laminated maple neck, with truss rod).  First, this is by FAR the best sounding J-45 I have ever owned or played. I think it’s in part due to the huge neck. The neck measures over 1 inch deep at the first fret. The biggest neck I have ever played incuding on any banner. I can’t believe the condition. Never had a neck reset either. Even though I was lookin for one without a truss rod and this one has it, I feel grateful and lucky for having found it. I instantly connected with it. The search may be over.

He found it at Elderly. Like I said, I hope he finds fulfillment in the guitar. If you can’t find fulfillment (and lots of it…) in a $16K (no typo) guitar, I’m not sure you’ll ever find it in anything. It is his dough so he’s free to spend it any way he wants, and I don’t know the guy from Adam but I’m glad he found something he wants. I’d love to hear the music he makes with it.

But I dunno. If you’re the late Tony Rice or Billy Strings or Norman Blake or Tommy Emmanuel, I could maybe see spending that much on a guitar. But those guys don’t even spend that much on a guitar. Even if I had a spare $16K (which, now that I think of it, I do) I wouldn’t spend it on a guitar, but that’s just me.

[Sgt. Pepper]

4 hours ago, dhanners623 said:

There’s a Facebook group for Gibson Banner Heads and this is what he posted (along with photos):

I came to these groups looking for a ”White Whale” (a 1943 hog top J-45 with a huge three piece laminated maple neck, no truss rod). Instead I found a Unicorn. A near-mint, all original, one family owned, 1944/45 hog top J-45 with a HUGE three piece laminated maple neck, with truss rod).  First, this is by FAR the best sounding J-45 I have ever owned or played. I think it’s in part due to the huge neck. The neck measures over 1 inch deep at the first fret. The biggest neck I have ever played including on any banner. I can’t believe the condition. Never had a neck reset either. Even though I was lookin for one without a truss rod and this one has it, I feel grateful and lucky for having found it. I instantly connected with it. The search may be over.

He found it at Elderly. Like I said, I hope he finds fulfillment in the guitar. If you can’t find fulfillment (and lots of it…) in a $16K (no typo) guitar, I’m not sure you’ll ever find it in anything. It is his dough so he’s free to spend it any way he wants, and I don’t know the guy from Adam but I’m glad he found something he wants. I’d love to hear the music he makes with it.

But I dunno. If you’re the late Tony Rice or Billy Strings or Norman Blake or Tommy Emmanuel, I could maybe see spending that much on a guitar. But those guys don’t even spend that much on a guitar. Even if I had a spare $16K (which, now that I think of it, I do) I wouldn’t spend it on a guitar, but that’s just me.

How much do you think one would cost from that year without a T/R? Is there such a thing? I just looked this up: The adjustable truss rod was invented by a Gibson employee, Thaddeus McHugh, and patented in 1921. I'm sure its not new knowledge to many here. Was to me.

Edited June 5, 2022 by Sgt. Pepper

[Dave F]

5 minutes ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

How much do you think one would cost from that year without a T/R? Is there such a thing? I just looked this up: The adjustable truss rod was invented by a Gibson employee, Thaddeus McHugh, and patented in 1921. I'm sure its not new knowledge to many here. Was to me.

During the war era there were a year or two where they thought they were conserving steel for the war effort by eliminating the adjustable truss rod and the screws that held the tuning gears on. I thought that was from late ‘43 on.  Of course they weren’t supposed to be build guitars during that time so I don’t understand the whole concept. 

[dhanners623]

I’ve been trying to find any website or YouTube videos (or anything…) of the OP’s music. My search so far has been unavailing. Out of curiosity, I’d like to hear the kind of music he’ll be making with his newfound guitar.

While I’ve never quite understood the collector mindset, I can, up to a point, understand a desire to own a piece of history or a guitar owned by someone famous or a guitar used on an iconic recording. The OP’s original list of criteria was quite specific, and my question to him — why that particular year? — went unanswered. So I have no idea what his thinking is, and for that matter, it’s none of my business.

I’m not sure what music I’d make with a ‘43 J-45 that I can’t make with one of the three (non-vintage) guitars I own. I’m sure his guitar will have a heavenly sound.

[jt]

7 hours ago, Dave F said:

During the war era there were a year or two where they thought they were conserving steel for the war effort by eliminating the adjustable truss rod and the screws that held the tuning gears on. I thought that was from late ‘43 on.  Of course they weren’t supposed to be build guitars during that time so I don’t understand the whole concept. 

There was no prohibition on building guitars during WWII. Indeed, as I document in Kalamazoo Gals, Gibson's president, Guy Hart, appeared before the War Production Board, the federal agency that president Roosevelt set up to convert the economy for peacetime to wartime, and complained that the company couldn't keep up with demand for guitars by US soldiers. (Hart also complained that his company was "being run almost completely by women.")

The truss rod disappeared on Gibsons (and Martins and other guitars) because the War Production Board issued an order mandating that no more than 10% of the weight of a stringed instrument consist of metal. The order issued in the spring of 1942 but was not implemented until the summer of 1943 (when Gibson sent a letter to its dealer announcing that guitars wouldn't have truss rods). The order did not affect guitars then in production. As a result, the truss rod-less guitars began appearing in late 1943 or early 1944.

The necks of the guitars without truss rods are very stable. Gibson reinforced them with a V-shaped maple "rod" that runs the length of the neck under the fingerboard (Martin used a square ebony rod during this time). I have 2 Banners with the maple reinforcement. The necks are quite stable. The guitars are crazy light and very responsive.

I hope that this adds to the discussion.

[Murph]

Very interesting jt.

Everybody kicked in in those days.

[Dave F]

1 hour ago, jt said:

There was no prohibition on building guitars during WWII. Indeed, as I document in Kalamazoo Gals, Gibson's president, Guy Hart, appeared before the War Production Board, the federal agency that president Roosevelt set up to convert the economy for peacetime to wartime, and complained that the company couldn't keep up with demand for guitars by US soldiers. (Hart also complained that his company was "being run almost completely by women.")

The truss rod disappeared on Gibsons (and Martins and other guitars) because the War Production Board issued an order mandating that no more than 10% of the weight of a stringed instrument consist of metal. The order issued in the spring of 1942 but was not implemented until the summer of 1943 (when Gibson sent a letter to its dealer announcing that guitars wouldn't have truss rods). The order did not affect guitars then in production. As a result, the truss rod-less guitars began appearing in late 1943 or early 1944.

The necks of the guitars without truss rods are very stable. Gibson reinforced them with a V-shaped maple "rod" that runs the length of the neck under the fingerboard (Martin used a square ebony rod during this time). I have 2 Banners with the maple reinforcement. The necks are quite stable. The guitars are crazy light and very responsive.

I hope that this adds to the discussion.

Thanks!

[fortyearspickn]

30 minutes ago, Murph said:

Very interesting jt.

Everybody kicked in in those days.

And innovated...   imagine a time when the Federal Government could get it's collective stuff together so fast and efficiently to order stringed instrument companies reduce metal content to 10%.   My father's company in Brooklyn switched from making Fuse boxes like you have in your home - to mortar shells. 

[zombywoof]

2 hours ago, jt said:

There was no prohibition on building guitars during WWII. Indeed, as I document in Kalamazoo Gals, Gibson's president, Guy Hart, appeared before the War Production Board, the federal agency that president Roosevelt set up to convert the economy for peacetime to wartime, and complained that the company couldn't keep up with demand for guitars by US soldiers. (Hart also complained that his company was "being run almost completely by women.")

 

 Gibson, of course, was not the only one to feel the impact.  By 1944 Epiphone catalogs noted their three flattops and entire mandolin line were "Discontinued for the Duration" with only an abbreviated selection of archtops being available while Harmony switched from metal to wood tailpieces on guitars.

[jt]

8 hours ago, zombywoof said:

 Gibson, of course, was not the only one to feel the impact.  By 1944 Epiphone catalogs noted their three flattops and entire mandolin line were "Discontinued for the Duration" with only an abbreviated selection of archtops being available while Harmony switched from metal to wood tailpieces on guitars.

Oh, absolutely. The War Production Board closed Singer Sewing Machine and Steinway Piano, among many other companies, because they used in manufacturing metals critical to the war effort (pianos use a big chunk of metal in their soundboards). The War Production Board also closed all gold and silver mines so that the miners and mining companies would instead move to other locations to extract minerals necessary to producing war-related products containing steel, aluminum, copper, tin, etc.

Researching this was one of the most steps in writing what would become Kalamazoo Gals. I obtained somewhere between 1,200 and 1,500 pages from the National Archives, every page mentioning Gibson and/or guitars.

Along with discovering the magic that the Gals contributed to guitar making (my X-ray and CT-scan studies produced statistically significant data revealing that the women's work was more refined than that of the men who built guitars before and after WWII), I'm proudest of documenting the War Production Board's impact on musical instrument making. 

I'm a fortunate fellow. 

[AnneS]

1 hour ago, jt said:

I'm a fortunate fellow. 

Knuckle-headed deer notwithstanding…😉

 

[jt]

11 hours ago, AnneS said:

Knuckle-headed deer notwithstanding…😉

 

Ain't that the truth! 🙂

[Murph]

16K on the guitar that you want isn't bad considering a new truck can be over 60K and a house I bought for 34K in Arizona sold for 225K.

Nothing makes sense anymore.

[Sgt. Pepper]

1 hour ago, Murph said:

16K on the guitar that you want isn't bad considering a new truck can be over 60K and a house I bought for 34K in Arizona sold for 225K.

Nothing makes sense anymore.

A guy I used to work with said all the time "You do what your paycheck can handle". If dropping 16 large is on a guitar is in your budget then it is. I know its not in mine.

Hope he enjoys it. Lets see some photos of this unicorn that flatulates rainbows.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Sgt. Pepper