ajsc Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Two wrongs don't make a right. Really? Thank you for sharing that!! Other wise I would have spent the rest of my life thinking "two wrongs do make a right"!! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kazzelectro Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Not sure why the idea of using Braz or Mahogany is even mentioned here. A little off the mark to even mention the depletion of wood as being relevant when a living creature is at risk. As mentioned by other members demand for EI whether legal, recycled or what ever should not exist. Any kind of demand to manufacture new ivory products potentially increases the probability of poaching. Dumb idea to boycott ivory products...I think not. AND...I am not suggesting Bob uses illegal ivory... not suggesting that you throw away your piano...not suggesting that you throw paint...not suggesting you're a bad person....not suggesting you are ignorant or dumb....BUT I am suggesting that demand for EI should cease to exist. Pretty simple concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kazzelectro Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 ...was going to link a youtube video but it was too disturbing...just take a look for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Whether it's chickens and KFC, Dog Fur and Burlington Coat Factory, or Pit Bulls and ignorant, newly rich NFL players - there will be people abusing animals as long as there are people and animals. Those who hope that guitar afficianados boycotting a legitmate, ethical business will have anything more than an .000001% impact - probably think we should double the price of gasoline in the US and that will offset the mass burnings of fields in Mexico that choke us in South Texas, or the burning of forests in Brazil. High mindedness on the part of the 2% of guitar player who buy walrus or elephant bridge will not affect the poachers in Africa. Those governments simply need to execute the poachers:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_Engr Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Fortyearspicking - well stated, thank-you! Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajsc Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Not sure why the idea of using Braz or Mahogany is even mentioned here. A little off the mark to even mention the depletion of wood as being relevant when a living creature is at risk. As mentioned by other members demand for EI whether legal' date=' recycled or what ever should not exist. Any kind of demand to manufacture new ivory products potentially increases the probability of poaching. Dumb idea to boycott ivory products...I think not. AND...I am not suggesting Bob uses illegal ivory... not suggesting that you throw away your piano...not suggesting that you throw paint...not suggesting you're a bad person....not suggesting you are ignorant or dumb....BUT I am suggesting that demand for EI should cease to exist. Pretty simple concept.[/quote'] What if these "living creatures" die naturally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_Engr Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Yep, Ias lost my best sheep last year to natural causes - grin grin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buc McMaster Posted April 12, 2009 Author Share Posted April 12, 2009 I doubt that "Buc McMaster"' date=' slaughtered an elephant![/quote'] I must confess...... The rogue was trampling my backyard garden! I tried to shoo him away, but I had to resort to the ol' .470 Nitro Express soft points to stop his rampage. Sorry, couldn't resist a little humor in this sea of animosity. All those opposed to the use of ivory are entitled to their opinions and they are no less valid than those of us on the other side. Most issues are that way and so they shall remain. But the facts are that the world has seen fit to apply stringent controls on the harvesting and international movement of elephant ivory. They have at the same time said that existing ivory stock may be used as it's owners see fit, be it for guitar saddles or jewelry boxes. There is nothing illegal about this. Those opposed say the continued demand encourages illegal poaching.......I'm sure they are correct. What they are missing (or ignoring) is the fact that there will always be outlaws in any area of human endeavor - you name the commodity and you will find illegal activity, in spite of all laws and regulations. Should we declare that humans should cease to reproduce because of human trafficking? Should the production of alcoholic beverages be stopped because 16-year-olds are killing themselves and others, drunk behind the wheel? We debate the particulars and set laws and regulations in place to control legal use/activity and do our best to interrupt and apprehend those operating illegally. I am satisfied that the world's efforts to control the use and procurement of elephant ivory are as good as they're going to get.......the laws are on the books and they are enforced to the extent that resources allow. I will not let the activities of criminals make this decision for me. I wanted a small bit of ivory. I can legally obtain a small bit of ivory. The law is on my side in this acquisition and I will not be made to feel as if I am the outlaw for this transaction. Not sure why the idea of using Braz or Mahogany is even mentioned here. A little off the mark to even mention the depletion of wood as being relevant when a living creature is at risk. What? A tree is not a living creature? Just because it cannot make cute noises' date=' move about or cry out, it is no less a [i']living creature[/i]. It reproduces and grows to maturity, just like an elephant. It is majestic and beautiful in it's mature state, just like an elephant. It produces a desirable commodity, just like an elephant. There are laws and regulations controlling harvest of trees such as Brazilian rosewood, just as there are concerning the elephant. Where is the difference other than in your mind? This is ignorance. The demand for Brazilian rosewood nor elephant ivory will not go away just because you want it to, and likewise, the fact that a tree is a living creature will not change because you think it not so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerpopper Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Yep' date=' Ias lost my best sheep last year to natural causes - grin grin. [/quote'] Pulled out your gun and shot her, naturally! Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilliangirl Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Well, I might as well chime in here. Just because bad things will continue to happen (16 year olds drinking, etc), doesn't mean that those of us who DO have control over things shouldn't exercise that control. You will never find elephant ivory on my guitars. I saw that same documentary and the images still stick in my mind. And I do believe it creates a market if we use the product and tell everyone how wonderful it is on the world wide web. On the plus side, when y'all want to come up for a guitar jam, just say the word! We've got great beer up here! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nodehopper Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 This thread is a perfect example of why things spiral out of control in this world and issues that are important do not get resolved until it is too late. "Boycotting Bob Colosi" will do NOTHING to stop the killing of Elephants. It is a knee jerk reaction that is illogical and an argument that only foments the discussion and takes us further away from a solution. Suddenly the discussion becomes divided into polar extremes and is completely non-productive. Just as politicians love to create new legislation to make themselves look responsive ...while not funding/allowing enforcement of the current laws. With EI, Mahogany, Brazilian rosewood, Ebony ...etc....etc..... We all need to focus on the possible extinction of these living creatures that are on the brink. We all need to use a little common sense to do our part. kazzelectro-- when was the last time you sent a donation to the World Wildlife Fund? That would certainly be a more useful thing to do to save elephants than to boycott Bob C. Are all your guitars Forest Stewardship Council (FSC) compliant? Instead of taking polar positions and throwing out thoughtless commentaries .....do the research and do what is right. Buying Legal Ivory is not a bad thing. It is taking what is already available and re-using it. Just as luthiers are finding salvaged tone woods to build with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kazzelectro Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I give...was fun while it lasted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Player Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 On the plus side' date=' when y'all want to come up for a guitar jam, just say the word! We've got great beer up here! :-D[/quote'] Driving distance from Minneapolis is what? Today is a day for giving thanks in my house..... Happy Easter all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLiveSoundGuy Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 So since it's Easter, is it okay to kill a pig for the ham many of us seem to enjoy? Or a cow? Or can we just rip the vegetables from the warm earth that nurtured them just to keep our no longer have control of anything butts alive? I guess fish are out too. Think I'll just chew on my nails awhile. That is, if that's alright with everyone else. Happy 4th of July folks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmith9509 Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Really? Thank you for sharing that!! Other wise I would have spent the rest of my life thinking "two wrongs do make a right"!! ;) I tried to be clear that I don't necessarily take issue with Buc using a small amount of legal ivory for his guitar; I take issue with people promoting it and creating demand on the internet. There are some things that are scarce because they're precious, and there are some that are precious because they're scarce. Nothing creates demand like scarcity, especially in our little guitar world- it seems like the more expensive something is, or the harder it is to get, the more benefits that people claim for it (usually in the absence of science or logic). Somebody has to step in at some point in the discussion and raise the question, "is it really worth it?" I certainly don't think boycotting Bob Colosi will help, and I also happen to think he is a great guy and runs a nice business. The whole "oh, we're just musicians using a small percentage of the ivory" argument before. Where does that logic end? I'm just one consumer so why should I bother recycling? What difference could I make? This is fallacious logic. Somebody has to lead by example and ask others to follow. Comparing the farming of pigs and cattle to the poaching of elephants is just plain ignorant. Generally there are great measures taken to ensure that farm animals are slaughtered humanely; elephants are gunned down from moving vehicles, and their faces are sawn off with chainsaws. Then two tons of flesh is left to rot in the sun. The offspring of the slaughtered are left to die as well. My viewpoint is this: there are lots of materials in this world that are in scarce supply, and that have been subject to overharvesting. If one consumes them, but treats them as a precious resource and considers conservation and the consequences of their actions, then that's OK in most cases. I think these rules apply to rosewood, mahogany, etc. They are working on sustainable farming practices to make these materials available. To my knowledge, nobody has come up with an ecology-minded strategy for the harvesting of elephant ivory. So, to Buc- enjoy your guitar. Appreciate it every time you play it, and realize that something precious and rare has contributed to it's beauty. Strive to make these precious things available to future generations. ajsc- do you have anything productive to add to the discussion, or just juvenile insults? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killyridols Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I always found Elephants a little over-rated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_Engr Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 One last kick at the cat - sorry baaaaa joke. I consider myself a well balanced, opened minded thinking person, but I feel, yes we as a human race are incredibly insensitive and inhumane to animals. Yes, I am a meat eater and will not give it up, I would challenge anyone to say they do not use a product that has somehow touched or taken the life of an animal or plant. Look at the perfume industry that abused and tortures poor defensive rabbits by spraying their product in their eyes, the slaughtering of seals - which is only taken notice because they are cute animals with big eyes, I could go on and on. What am I saying is yes I would use an ivory saddle - would I care if it came from a slaughtered elephant, yes. Do I think killing elephants is wrong yes. Do I think taking tusks off of natural dead elephants is wrong or reusing existing ivory from trinkets and reusing for saddles or pins is wrong - nope. Am I going to change the world - nope. But remember be careful before you cast a stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLiveSoundGuy Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Amen Fred. People, look around you. Do see the way we treat each other as human beings? And you want to worry about elephants? PLEASE. Give me a break. When you learn to treat your fellow mankind better then you do, then come talk crap about elephants. But until you become GOD, just don't. That's best advice for anybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmith9509 Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Amen Fred. People' date=' look around you. Do see the way we treat each other as human beings? And you want to worry about elephants? PLEASE. Give me a break. When you learn to treat your fellow mankind better then you do, then come talk crap about elephants. But until you become GOD, just don't. That's best advice for anybody. [/quote'] So if I'm understanding you correctly- what you said is that because I express concern over elephant poaching, I treat other people badly and have no concern for humans. Concern for elephants and concern for humans are mutually exclusive. Therefore only God is entitled to make an objection. Wow- it seems so obvious to me know, I don't know how I've been missing it. Great point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLiveSoundGuy Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 {snip}Wow- it seems so obvious to me know' date=' I don't know how I've been missing it. Great point![/quote'] Well I'm glad it's finally obvious to you. Maybe now people can put whatever they want one their guitars, without getting your unsolicited opinion on what's right and what's wrong by your standards. Like Buc stated earlier, you are not going to change his opinion, just as he, or anyone else is not going to change yours. So why do you keep trying to save the forum members from their evil ways? Give it a rest. Some of us take our guitars as seriously as you take your elephants. So as long as I don't shove my guitar up your elephants ***, then don't worry about what I shove up my bridge. ...or worry about it if that's what floats your boat. But DON'T try to pull anyone's socks down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suburude63 Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I saw an interesting t shirt today! It said. "Let Jesus Save the Elephants" or maybe it was "Let Jesus Save The Whales" ?! Its a great highlight I think to the absurdity of a discussion about the use of a "legally" obtained substance for a piece of a guitar. A moral issue ? Bob did not kill any elephants neither did the suppliers of the bridge blanks! Maybe the Elephant had a Cardiac Arrest? Maybe someone found the famous elephant grave yard . Who knows? really who cares! If you dont want to buy a EI bridge its simple dont buy one! But please do not preach to me about morality here. We on this blue marble are on are way out if you have not noticed! To many people ! To little wisdom! as Hemingway put it. "It goes from Class to Mass to Crass" The planet will right itself and get rid of us! We deserve it! suburude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadgrateful Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Wow, some people are being real jackasses here (no names mentioned). I'm not even going to try and state my opinion, other than to say, I have a saddle on my J-200 made from fossilised hummingbird testicles. And they only had to slaughter 5,000 of them to make it!! Sounds pretty much the same as plastic, but with a little more ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kazzelectro Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I just want to leave this forum alone for a while because it's leaving a bad taste. I was enjoying this place but the overwhelming responses in favor of using EI leaves me bewildered. It makes me start to understand how simple disagreement ends up in full blown wars. Our little discussion has illustrates mans unwillingness to change their to thickheaded opinions and their willingness to carry on with their selfish pursuits for things that just don't matter. What doesn't matter is what kind of friggin pins you use. It's clear that none of us have changed our opinions on this matter. Might be a fun experiment to run this by the folks at the AGP or the UMGF...see if we end up with the same crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLiveSoundGuy Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Wow' date=' some people are being real jackasses here (no names mentioned). I'm not even going to try and state my opinion, other than to say, I have a saddle on my J-200 made from fossilised hummingbird testicles. And they only had to slaughter 5,000 of them to make it!! Sounds pretty much the same as plastic, but with a little more ring.[/quote'] :- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suburude63 Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 What no sense of Humor ??? If we take ourselves this seriously we are in big trouble! You guys are to easy to stir the pot! Humor please! :- :-& suburude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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