Martin Dropping "Sitka" From Literature. Will Just Say "Spruce"...

[kelly campbell]

13 hours ago, Salfromchatham said:

I’ve calmed down a bit from prior years, where I got worked up on a lot of specs and tonewoods. I custom ordered a specific Martin at one point with exact specs. What was I thinking? I don’t own it now…

 

Sure I have some preferences- for example I like mahogany a crap ton.

Now I am pretty open minded. I have played Taylors and thought the sounded great… like the AD17. And I really dig a $500 dread I bought from Eastman with a cedar top. I like that guitar more than their pricey models, and way more than the Gibsons I played last weekend.

And my J45-TV is still amazing to me, and I’m glad I own it.

Sitka vs Alpine vs Adi vs Lutz vs Ebony vs Eucalyptus vs Whatever…. I play it, and I know if I like the sound.

Agree 100%!   It is all about the sound and feel.

[Sgt. Pepper]

5 hours ago, fortyearspickn said:

Chief  - obviously you've never worked in Marketing -   "This guitar does not suck."   is not selling the sizzle or the steak !   Though, I think,  when you get to the cheap-os,  Rouge, Mitchell, Ibanez,   it might be a good Disclaimer to put on the hang tag. 

No I'm mostly a dumb electrician trained by our nations Navy and Coast Guard. If only I could have first used the "I" word Gibson is so fond of, I would have been a Marketing Guru. I would need a  $450 leather jacket, some sort of Gibson $75 t-shirt, and smug look on my face.

[Sgt. Pepper]

I remember at time when Gibson had to use resin and cardboard for fretboards. Martin currently uses it too. I played a few with them and it seemed okay, but who knows in the long run? I guess if its good enough for cabinets and countertops, its good enough for guitars.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Sgt. Pepper

[Sevendaymelee]

1 hour ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

I remember at time when Gibson had to use resin and cardboard for fretboards. Martin currently uses it too. I played a few with them and it seemed okay, but who knows in the long run? I guess if its good enough for cabinets and countertops, its good enough for guitars.

I don't know about you, but I expect my guitars to have better tone than my cabinets... 

[rbpicker]

I once owned a Taylor 510 e with a Lutz top.  I don’t like Taylors, but this guitar was spectacular sounding.  It had a Lutz spruce top, mahogany back and sides.  Also had a Halcyon 00 Nick Lucas that was GREAT!   Again, Lutz top.

I don’t care if Martin (or Gibson, Collings, etc) uses Lutz, but I want to know it before I buy.  I buy on sound, but just be up front about the ingredients in the pudding.  Pretty simple.

rb

Edited November 4, 2022 by rbpicker

[RvrDxn]

I don’t care what a guitar looks or sounds like. I only buy if it’s made in China.  Ch-iiiiiiiii-nah!

[ksdaddy]

One of my favorite acoustics ever is a ‘98 Martin D-1. No idea what it’s made of. I don’t think the body is HPL, it looks like it might be mahogany and I’m sure it’s laminated. Solid spruce top of unknown forest, “whatever wood we had” fretboard and bridge. Sounds wonderful and weighs nothing. I don’t care for the flat finish but that’s more “feel” than looks. I feel like I’m holding a guitar that has been sanded for a topcoat of lacquer. 
I’m not crunchy or a tree hugger but I have respect for companies that at least attempt to use sustainable materials. I have an old ‘98 Seagull with a cedar top, laminated cherry b&s, birch (?) neck. God only knows what the board is. Butt ugly and plain but it does the job. 
I would rather see (as an example) Gibson keeping the J200 exactly as it is and pull back production to match availability. If they want to introduce a more sustainable version of the J200, call it something else. It’s all in the presentation. 

[Sevendaymelee]

3 hours ago, rbpicker said:

I once owned a Taylor 510 e with a Lutz top.  I don’t like Taylors, but this guitar was spectacular sounding.  It had a Lutz spruce top, mahogany back and sides.  Also had a Halcyon 00 Nick Lucas that was GREAT!   Again, Lutz top.

I don’t care if Martin (or Gibson, Collings, etc) uses Lutz, but I want to know it before I buy.  I buy on sound, but just be up front about the ingredients in the pudding.  Pretty simple.

rb

This is my argument as well. Yes, I have my preferences, but we should all know what wood is being used before we buy it. 

[BluesKing777]

 

So, what are we saying?

All that Sitka along the north west US, Alaska is gone? Going? Thousands and thousands of miles of it?

Or is it a wood buyer, financial decision?

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by BluesKing777

[Murph]

2 hours ago, BluesKing777 said:

 

So, what are we saying?

All that Sitka along the north west US, Alaska is gone? Going? Thousands and thousands of miles of it?

Or is it a wood buyer, financial decision?

 

 

 

No, it's not gone.

Companies are afraid of being "cancelled" due to wackos.

[Murph]

11 hours ago, ksdaddy said:

 If they want to introduce a more sustainable version of the J200, call it something else. It’s all in the presentation. 

Bingo.

And that's what they did with the J-15.

I literally call it my walnut J-45.

Then they aborted that plan and did something else.

[jvi]

I live where Sitka used to grow and there "aint much left round here " 

[Sgt. Pepper]

13 hours ago, ksdaddy said:

One of my favorite acoustics ever is a ‘98 Martin D-1. No idea what it’s made of. I don’t think the body is HPL, it looks like it might be mahogany and I’m sure it’s laminated. 

Spruce top, solid hog back, laminated hog sides. 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Sgt. Pepper

[olie]

2 hours ago, Murph said:

 

No, it's not gone.

Companies are afraid of being "cancelled" due to wackos.

There used to be billions of Passenger Pigeons, too.

[ksdaddy]

55 minutes ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

Spruce top, solid hog back, laminated hog sides. 

Oops, I misspoke. It's not a D-1, it's a DM. Again, not sure what the back and sides are. They look like mahogany but could be some weird tree they got a good deal on. I think the material might have even changed during it's lifespan.

 

[fortyearspickn]

With the virtually limitless choice of names and numbers - I would hope Gibson would never call a guitar that resembles a J45 but  that has been dumbed down significantly a J45 anything.    A J45 Studio has Walnut back and sides and fretboard and bridge - but also a thinner body and flatter radius on the fretboard.   I know we've had that ongoing, growing list that OneWileyFool started years back - probably with 100 different variations of the J45 - and there've been a lot more since then. But, I think they all were in the general Model 'Territory'.  Most significant differences were b/s using RW or Koa or face using Mahogany.   Of course, bracing, cutaway entered into the equation. And some were pink and somewhere green.    But I think Marketing should have zero input in the decisions they make at Bozeman in deciding if a variation still fits within the "J45 Family".     

Just echoing what KsDaddy said  using the SJ200 as an iconic model that should be kept recognizable.   They need to maintain the definition of what a J45,  an SJ200 , etc. are  and not re-define those age-old war horses.   Sort of like calling a golf cart a sports car. 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Here is what ebony should look like its on a 2013 - 000-28.

And 

 

Edited November 8, 2022 by Sgt. Pepper

[Sgt. Pepper]

On 11/5/2022 at 9:09 AM, ksdaddy said:

Oops, I misspoke. It's not a D-1, it's a DM. Again, not sure what the back and sides are. They look like mahogany but could be some weird tree they got a good deal on. I think the material might have even changed during it's lifespan.

 

On line it said the DM is Solid Spruce top and laminated Mahogany for the sides and back.

[zombywoof]

Many years back John Greven used a line in an article - "spruce is spruce, get over it".  While acknowledging differences in various species he stated that such were only minor and ultimately it all came down to the knowledge and skill of the builder.

[tpbiii]

Spruce does hybridize -- I have a 100+ acres of woodland in Nova Scotia that has a great deal of red, black, and white (skunk) spruce.  I has not been timbered in 150+ years -- it has a few red spruce trees large enough for guitar tops.  Black does not get big enough.  Hybrid trees are everywhere == spruce likes to do that.

 

 

[Larsongs]

When Martin went from Brazilian Rosewood to Indian Rosewood the hub-bub was Brazilian sounded, looked & would out last Indian etc.. Whether or not it’s true I don’t know.. What I do know is the Brazilian Rosewood demands higher Prices.. Will that be the same with Sitka? Who knows?

Both Lutz & Sitka will be used for Custom Shop Martins as well. What that means is any bodies guess.. I would venture Sitka Topped 2022’s will sell out quick! 

[Sevendaymelee]

21 minutes ago, Larsongs said:

When Martin went from Brazilian Rosewood to Indian Rosewood the hub-bub was Brazilian sounded, looked & would out last Indian etc.. Whether or not it’s true I don’t know.. What I do know is the Brazilian Rosewood demands higher Prices.. Will that be the same with Sitka? Who knows?

Both Lutz & Sitka will be used for Custom Shop Martins as well. What that means is any bodies guess.. I would venture Sitka Topped 2022’s will sell out quick! 

There are several people who prefer EIR to BRW, so there will also be several who prefer Sitka to Lutz. Tone is subjective, not objective. So there's no such thing as a better tone wood, at least as far as tone goes. 

Martin should still be telling people what wood they're using, though. That should be a standard thing. 

Edited November 9, 2022 by Sevendaymelee

[Larsongs]

20 hours ago, Sevendaymelee said:

There are several people who prefer EIR to BRW, so there will also be several who prefer Sitka to Lutz. Tone is subjective, not objective. So there's no such thing as a better tone wood, at least as far as tone goes. 

Martin should still be telling people what wood they're using, though. That should be a standard thing. 

I agree.. There’s some kind of voodoo mystic perception about BRW that people are willing to step up for.. Many Musician friends of mine tell me they think my 1975 D-35 with EIR is the best sounding Martin they’ve ever heard.. I tend to agree.. whether it is or not… I know it sounded better than my recent new 2022 Martin HD-28E L.R Baggs Anthem which I returned .. I loved the Guitar but couldn’t get along with the protruding V on the back of the headstock.. Very uncomfortable.. I’d love to replace it with a 2022 D-28E Std.. But, they don’t make them? Custom order only? Weird?

Edited November 10, 2022 by Larsongs

[Sevendaymelee]

14 hours ago, Larsongs said:

I agree.. There’s some kind of voodoo mystic perception about BRW that people are willing to step up for.. Many Musician friends of mine tell me they think my 1975 D-35 with EIR is the best sounding Martin they’ve ever heard.. I tend to agree.. whether it is or not… I know it sounded better than my recent new 2022 Martin HD-28E L.R Baggs Anthem which I returned .. I loved the Guitar but couldn’t get along with the protruding V on the back of the headstock.. Very uncomfortable.. I’d love to replace it with a 2022 D-28E Std.. But, they don’t make them? Custom order only? Weird?

It probably has nothing to do with guitars at all. It's probably just the whole sociological aspect of owning something that other's don't, so you feel validated as a human being. Because think about it... why are all the mystical properties attached things that are hard to obtain? Doesn't law of averages say that sooner or later, there would come a day when something mystical was easy to obtain? That we would find an abundance of trees which produce this harmonious sound that everyone could afford? 

If people had a look at the top forty-or-so greatest rock and folk albums, they would be shocked at just how very few of them were recorded with brazilian rosewood guitars. They would be even more shocked to discover that a great many of them featured 70's Martins... large bridge plates and all. 

 

[Tim Tim]

On 11/8/2022 at 11:18 AM, Sgt. Pepper said:

Here is what ebony should look like its on a 2013 - 000-28.

And 

 

Martin has been dying their ebony black since before WW2.  They only finally stopped just this year.