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musings on digital modeling vs tube amps


esch

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What about a modeling procesor through an amp?=D>

 

You do know everything goes to the PA system anyway dont you? Backline amps are mainly for monitoring.

Your right, so: If you want to be heard above the drums, BE SURE THE SOUND GUY KNOWS YOUR MUSIC. I'm not down with that modeling stuff, though. It lacks some "presence", in my opinion. It doesnt seem to move air(?) in the same way that a "real" amp does.
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To me, the bottom line is this: Use whatever tools work to get you the sound you want. There is no right or wrong or better or worse; the sound of an electric guitar is so ambiguous and subjective that it's impossible to define "perfect."

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O:)

To me' date=' the bottom line is this: Use whatever tools work to get you the sound you want. There is no right or wrong or better or worse; the sound of an electric guitar is so ambiguous and subjective that it's impossible to define "perfect."

[/quote']

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What I did get out of the experience was that I was able to narrow down the basic tones I liked the best' date=' then I went out and bought my two favorites - a mesa dual rectifier and a Soldano!

[/quote']

 

Wow, Esch, I did practically the same thing. I have a Behringer V-Amp (upgraded the EEPROM to V-Amp 2), and I just LOVED the AC15 sound with my Yamaha hollowbody. Liked it so much, I went out and bought one!

 

Now, I must say, most modelers lack the feel of a tube amp. You can get the sounds out of them, but you can't get too many out of a single patch. I must say that my R8 sounds pretty good through my Line 6 POD X3 Live. With the added dynamics of the guitar, it is much improved over cheaper guitars.

 

However, I just had a gig last week at a place on Lake Travis here in Austin. It was actually floating on a pier (The Pier) and difficult to get to. We all plugged modelers into a small PA (usually use these speakers as monitors), and it still sounded great. Much better than I thought.

 

One thing about the V-AMP....it has the BEST Marshall sound I've ever heard.

 

Anyway, I wouldn't trade the modelers for a good tube amp. You'd just be missing something you can't get. However, they are great for inspiration, recording, and even live stuff. And, as many people mentioned, your audience really doesn't give a damn! I remember seeing Big Head Todd play with the first POD stuff. He sounded great!

 

-Brad

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The main argument I find when debating tube vs solid vs digital is "digital doesn't sound like tube", so ... what if I don't want it to sound like a tube amp?

 

The last band I played with had another guitarist... both of us did lead and rythm deppending on the song and the mood. I played both my made in USA tele and my les paul through the AC30 and used analog fx pedals, tube distortion (vox bulldog), digital delay (boss dd-20 gigadelay at the time, before falling in love with the marshall echohead, into the fx loop that can be bypassed), great great tone.

 

My pal played his variax through a Line6 Flextone, when he used the AC30 models he didnt fool me, that amp didn't sound like an AC30 (or at least not like mine)...

 

BUT HELL, DID IT SOUND GOOD! (great actually)

 

In my opinion it doesnt matter if it emulates tubes or has tubes or has transistors or is made of coke cans as long as the guy using it can make it sound good.

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Your right' date=' so: If you want to be heard above the drums, BE SURE THE SOUND GUY KNOWS YOUR MUSIC. I'm not down with that modeling stuff, though. It lacks some "presence", in my opinion. It doesnt seem to move air(?) in the same way that a "real" amp does.[/quote']

 

 

I'm with you... tube amps have that really punchy sound you cant find on solid state and digital amps; but I have pluged digital multifx and preamp modules to tube amps and they have sounded as desired and they have moved the desired amount of air (which for me is an integral part of feeling what you are playing, maybe I'm nuts).

 

And you got the exact point of my comment: more important than the amp's qualities (and everything else you throw between your fingers and the audience's ears) are the soundguy's knowledge and hability to get your tone right, which sometimes they lack (thus flushing your 3-10K setup down the toilet).

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:-

 

Absolutely.

 

For my 2 cents, it really depends on the style of music, too. Jeff Beck through the POD on "Plan B" was perfect for that style of music - in fact, didn't it win the Grammy for "best instrumental" that year? And Beck on "Truth" - Marshalls? - certainly works for that purpose, too.

It's hard to argue with the idea that the best way to get a vintage tone is to use vintage equipment - even when modeled versions are very close in sound, there's a certain authenticity to the actual pieces, even if that sense of "trueness" is admittedly, at the very least in part, often based on some combination of preconceptions rather than purely auditory objectivity.

Straight-ahead rock n' roll benefits from a real straight-ahead classic sound, but there are many reasons a lot of fusion and art-rock players use far more modern signal paths. When you're trying to shape something a little different from the usual fare, all those options are a real boon, even if, say an AC30 model only sounds as much like a classic AC30 as a reissue with Chinese tubes does!

I reckon the more liberally effects are used, too, the less fundamental are the tubes themselves to one's sound. A real bare-bones tone through a Class "A" amp is one thing; multiple channels, effects loops, digital delays and the like create different tones in and of themselves anyway.

And, I must say, many digital patches seem to blend with keyboards in prog-rock and instrumental soundtrack styles with far greater ease. Not sure why this is so, but I've found it to be the case on quite a few recording dates, and even on live shows.

I really think it depends on - to paraphrase Nigel Tufnel - who you are and what you're doing.................

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Because I have more options than you. I'm not limiting myself to only tube amps. And as far as fooling people ? I'm not trying to or feel the need to fool anyone. The tone I get is just as good as my tube amps just different. One you've spent 25 years hauling gear around the country come back and tell me that small difference in tone is worth all the extra money and back pain.

imag0069.jpg

 

Cool photo Mick!! Nice looking LP!! Forget the "immature" comment. That was my bad! Nothing personal, just took what you said out of context. I would probably like the Tonelab if I tried it. For now I'm gonna stick with the POD. I'm actually not even using the POD's modeling capabilities right now. At the moment I'm just using the POD to control my V3 via midi and I'm sending the POD through the effects loop for effects only. I've helped guys who own a Tonelab, like you, connect to their Carvin V3 amplifier soley for the midi capabilities and not the modeling. I'm not a gigging musician, but it's cool to think that if I was at a gig and my V3 crapped out, I would have my POD there as backup.

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I went to listen to some of his clips on youtube ... I think it's safe to say I prefer Punky Brewster =D>

 

I have a POD X3 Live as well (I point this out in the event that the snobbery comment above was directed at me for my opinions of the shortcomings of modelers - I own one' date=' so I'm not a snob about it in the very least), project ... what are your favorite amp models on there? [/quote']

 

I really like Lincoln's patches that he created. Most of which are created using a Plexi. He has this one patch in particular, I think its 18C, that I really enjoy. It has a nice dynamic blusey feel that I think works particularly well with a Strat. Though I would prefer a Strat for that patch, a Les Paul sounds good as well.

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Cool photo Mick!! Nice looking LP!! Forget the "immature" comment. That was my bad! Nothing personal' date=' just took what you said out of context. I would probably like the Tonelab if I tried it. For now I'm gonna stick with the POD. I'm actually not even using the POD's modeling capabilities right now. At the moment I'm just using the POD to control my V3 via midi and I'm sending the POD through the effects loop for effects only. I've helped guys who own a Tonelab, like you, connect to their Carvin V3 amplifier soley for the midi capabilities and not the modeling. I'm not a gigging musician, but it's cool to think that if I was at a gig and my V3 crapped out, I would have my POD there as backup.[/quote']

 

No problem I do it from time to time as well it can be hard to tell peoples attitude in a post. I used to have 3 Marshalls at every gig two for backline and one just in case. Sometimes I would go with full stacks but never really needed them. I'm over all that now and if I got back in the game I'm not sure I would bring anything but the ToneLab. I've got it dialed in pretty good. Plus so many more options in sounds. The pro's just out weigh the con's 10 fold. I have major hearing problems from cranked Marshalls night after night year after year. My back is destroyed moving gear for my band and when not giging myself I was a roadie. I'm just too damn old to not use this option.

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The digital world has been trying to reproduce the quality of the guitar signal passed through a tube amplifier since its conception. This alone should speak for itself.

Tubes produce a natural harmonic response that is very pleasing to our ears. However, they also can produce a mixture of harmonic overtones that are not so pleasing to hear if they are not designed properly.

A well designed pre amp and power amp with select tubes is probably always going to out do any digital or solid state reproduction of a guitar signal.

The only downfall to tubes these days is current production standards and quality. Yester years production of "good old days" tubes puts new production in its place. Finding select tubes is not as easy as it used to be, and can get wastefully expensive.

 

With any amp solid state, digital, or tube, the longer you make the signal chain, the more original signal that gets taken away, or replaced by the added circuit. Buffers, and signal boosters can overcome decible and capacitive losses in the signal chain, but the original signal continues to be diminished. This robs the sound you trying to work with and replaces it with a circuit generated signal.

As a final note, I beleive tube circuits teach you how to play the guitar in many ways that solid state or digital con not, by giving you the ability to control how you govern the sound going through the tube circuits that lead up to the speaker(s) and your ears.

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As a final note' date=' I beleive tube circuits teach you how to play the guitar in many ways that solid state or digital con not, by giving you the ability to control how you govern the sound going through the tube circuits that lead up to the speaker(s) and your ears. [/quote']

 

This is what everyone seems to not here is the ToneLab LE actually responds to your guitar as a real tube amp. They have finally figured it out. I can go from cleans to full overdrive smoothly using the guitars volume and the power of my strumming hand.

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A few years back I bought a Digitech GNX4. "Wow... I thought.... This is gonna be AWESOME!!!!" Well, not so much. I will say that there is SOME use for it. I get REALLY great recordings out of it, and the features like the drum machine and (With a PC) having the ability to program the drums is nice. But I still can't seem to use it with my amp. It sounds flat out awful.

 

I don't hate the thing, but I sure wish I could use it with my 1/2 stack. :(

 

Right now I have it plugged into a set of PC speakers. For noodling it is great, but for $500 (Don't know what they go for now...) I could have bought all the pedals I needed and been a lot happier. Then again, havig the ability to record is nice and i might not have been able to do so otherwise...

 

See my Dilemma?????? ;)

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And' date=' I must say, many digital patches seem to blend with keyboards in prog-rock and instrumental soundtrack styles with far greater ease.[/quote']

 

I think this is because the keyboards are predominantly digital...

 

So much modern instrumental music sounds like one of those 'demo' buttons on a digital home keyboard. I struggle to listen to much modern prog because the keyboards sound so tinny. The problems really started with the Yamaha DX7. Everyone junked their Rhodes' for this piece of plastic. Listen to George Duke's 'The aura will prevail' from around '75, for sheer keyboard bliss, or any number of Hancock / Corea / Zawinul lps.

 

To show I'm not gratuitously sticking the boot into digital, I do like 2 decent emulations of classic gear - Mr Ray (Rhodes) and the Minimoog VA. http://www.home.no/gunnare/sound.htm

 

They are both free, PC based programs.

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