Trade - in dealers policies

[marco mancini]

hello there folks  i would like to ask you an opinion on trade-in policies  which some  official  gibson dealers  have ;

recently i have asked my dealer (an italian one  gibson official )  to order an M2M  gibson les paul custom   (VOS  not aged ) and i wanted to trade in  a near mint Gibson les paul special Rick Beato 

https://ibb.co/F7xzcx8

https://ibb.co/9pj1vP3

The estimate for the  les paul custom M2M  was 7,149 euros   but when i went there  to trade in the Rick Beato he stated that the guitar was sold   back then at 1.619euros which i didnt believe  as the price list of Gibson was 1999 dollars 

 https://www.strumentimusicali.net/product_info.php/products_id/161118/gibson-les-paul-special-double-cut-rick-beato-tv-blue-mist.html?keywords=gibson+les+paul+spoecial+rick+beato

https://www.gibson.com/en-US/Electric-Guitar/USAQQJ682/TV-Blue-Mist

and that  i couldn't asked more  as  in reality i bought it to another official dealer for 1999  euros as more or less the price list of Gibson sold the guitar back then  . Of course i told him that that kind of guitar , mint as it is , is sold right now   at 2500 euros    and i was ready to trade in the guitar  only for  for at least 2000 , for  in any case i was prepared to add 5150 euros for a new gibson  which is  in any case is  a great esbourse  for a client  of the brand  

long story short the dealer didn't accept  the deal .

Am i right to ask Gibson and signal  the dealer in question  or was he right  not to accept  the trade in ?

 

cheers 

[Eracer_Team]

In Canada you get 40-60% of what the place thinks they can sell it for 

Except if it’s got a high resale price like your Beato; then they’d probably give you 40-60% of the last known sale price

its up to the retailer not Gibson 

Edited May 14 by Eracer_Team

[rct]

Trading is not for the faint-hearted.  Your demands for a trade based on current eBay/Reverb/Craigslist/Facebook retail tomfoolery is way out there.  They can only trade you based on what they themselves can sell the guitar for, not what some joker on the internet a thousand miles away says he got for his.  How much you paid for something means absolutely nothing when you trade.

rct

[jdgm]

The general rule is 1/3 of the price they will sell it for. 

[marco mancini]

11 hours ago, rct said:

Trading is not for the faint-hearted.  Your demands for a trade based on current eBay/Reverb/Craigslist/Facebook retail tomfoolery is way out there.  They can only trade you based on what they themselves can sell the guitar for, not what some joker on the internet a thousand miles away says he got for his.  How much you paid for something means absolutely nothing when you trade.

rct

And as far as you are concerned for how much they would sell such a guitar given that at the moment you find them at 2500 on average ?  If he  sells a mint  Rick Beato at 1500  he's really out with the fairies  and that's why i understand  he kept the same  gibson guitars stuck  on the wall for a very long time 

[rct]

1 hour ago, marco mancini said:

And as far as you are concerned for how much they would sell such a guitar given that at the moment you find them at 2500 on average ?  If he  sells a mint  Rick Beato at 1500  he's really out with the fairies  and that's why i understand  he kept the same  gibson guitars stuck  on the wall for a very long time 

If they sell at 2500 on average every day everywhere else, then he can sell it for 2500.  Get a calculator and figure out 60% of 2500, which is Hey! 1500.  That's what a music business typically gives the average trade, about 60% of what they can sell it for.  That's the most they will give you for it  Then they will sell it for 2500, hopefully, and the rest is theirs.  They don't give you what they sell it for or what you paid for it and call it even, that isn't how it works.  

rct

[IanHenry]

Don't forget the dealer has to cover his overheads,  make a profit and probably have to pay VAT on it. 

[marco mancini]

2 hours ago, IanHenry said:

Don't forget the dealer has to cover his overheads,  make a profit and probably have to pay VAT on it. 

Well , i think that  the dealer has to make sure  that the customer will come back , unfortunately in Italy  guitar dealers  like  car dealers  looks like they  do their utmost to hated , me myself  had to buy my two cars in England because i hate how the italian dealers sell  cars   and guitars alike , they are on their pedestal  and you should be treated like a scum who get in  pay a guitar and get off the shop , they really don't care at all if you will be back or not  , for them the most important thing is selling  the object .  i bought   on line from Anderton in the UK   and i had a very different feeling  that they do care  of their clients ,  this is the main difference .  

[Eracer_Team]

@marco mancini why do you think Italy is special?

im in Canada, I was the first post that told you you’ll get 40-60% of the last ‘retail’ sale price,

RCT also told you the same thing and I’m pretty sure his in the USA. 
so just because you have a Beato that used market trend is a bit higher than they first came out means nothing

thats not how any business works 

Edited May 15 by Eracer_Team

[IanHenry]

12 hours ago, marco mancini said:

Well , i think that  the dealer has to make sure  that the customer will come back , unfortunately in Italy  guitar dealers  like  car dealers  looks like they  do their utmost to hated , me myself  had to buy my two cars in England because i hate how the italian dealers sell  cars   and guitars alike , they are on their pedestal  and you should be treated like a scum who get in  pay a guitar and get off the shop , they really don't care at all if you will be back or not  , for them the most important thing is selling  the object .  i bought   on line from Anderton in the UK   and i had a very different feeling  that they do care  of their clients ,  this is the main difference .  

Come over to England to see if you can get a better deal, there are a lot of competitive dealers here or see if you can come to some arrangement with Andertons regarding your trade-in, I've never bought a guitar online but I would imagine they will have some arrangement available, that's their business.  The first step is to ring or e-mail them.

Good luck 🙂

[Farnsbarns]

16 hours ago, marco mancini said:

Well , i think that  the dealer has to make sure  that the customer will come back , unfortunately in Italy  guitar dealers  like  car dealers  looks like they  do their utmost to hated , me myself  had to buy my two cars in England because i hate how the italian dealers sell  cars   and guitars alike , they are on their pedestal  and you should be treated like a scum who get in  pay a guitar and get off the shop , they really don't care at all if you will be back or not  , for them the most important thing is selling  the object .  i bought   on line from Anderton in the UK   and i had a very different feeling  that they do care  of their clients ,  this is the main difference .  

Well, experiences differ. I ordered a wah wah from andertons, on back order, estimated a couple of weeks or something. After 2 months and having not heard a peep out of them to say sorry, offer new estimated times or anything, I called and asked for my money back. Still no word of apology or explanation. Just grunted in agreement and refunded. Not actually impressed at all by that experience. Maybe an isolated incident, but it put me off. 

Anyway, sounds to me like they made you an offer you don't like. You don't have to take it, even though it seems about the right amount by the time they've covered the overhead of stocking it, the VAT they will have to pay but can't claim and the profit a business must make. I presume the place was lit, heated, insured, and the guy wasting his time with you was being paid a wage.

 

If they sell for 2.5k everyday, sell it, go back with cash. 🤷 We recently bought a car (in the UK 😜) and we didn't like the trade in offer so we sold it privately and went back with cash. Coincidentally, it was about the same numbers. 1500 Vs 2500. 

Gibson aren't going to give a monkey's about the trade in offer one of their dealers made to you. It's none of Gibson's business. 

Edited May 15 by Farnsbarns

[marco mancini]

I think that gibson will look at sales numbers their dealers are making , well if it is not like that no wonder they change CEO's  every now and then 😄

[marco mancini]

10 hours ago, Eracer_Team said:

@marco mancini why do you think Italy is special?

im in Canada, I was the first post that told you you’ll get 40-60% of the last ‘retail’ sale price,

RCT also told you the same thing and I’m pretty sure his in the USA. 
so just because you have a Beato that used market trend is a bit higher than they first came out means nothing

thats not how any business works 

seeing that you are so business oriented  for sure  you are  certanly aware  of  a thing called  AFTER MARKET ,  if i'm a Gibson client  and i look to trade in a gibson guitar  for a new gibson  the dealer has a moral duty  to satisfied his client , here  we are not talking of 60 % 40%  or whatever , here we are talking of the attitude the italian dealers  have towards  their customers , they are rude , bad tempered , and they are not even able to say hello when you get in  , that is the main point , and i believe that Gibson will have to get in their way  to teach them how to sell  their dearly  guitars  

[marco mancini]

9 hours ago, IanHenry said:

Come over to England to see if you can get a better deal, there are a lot of competitive dealers here or see if you can come to some arrangement with Andertons regarding your trade-in, I've never bought a guitar online but I would imagine they will have some arrangement available, that's their business.  The first step is to ring or e-mail them.

Good luck 🙂

Sure enuf  despite Brexit  i prefer to make business with British dealers , i 'm sure that in England  i would have found  the right compromise  because their first duty is to satisfied  a customer .

they smile , they say hello  when you get in the shop , in italy when you enter in a guitar shop  they don't even care to say , may I help you sir ?  this is the problem of the Italian vendors , that is why  i  proudly ride in  right hand wheel  british car  in Italy 

[Eracer_Team]

“Moral duty to satisfy the customer “

sure , yeah right 

no they don’t 

[merciful-evans]

8 hours ago, Eracer_Team said:

“Moral duty to satisfy the customer “

sure , yeah right 

no they don’t 

Well, professional curtesy then.

[marco mancini]

6 hours ago, Little Feat said:

Why does the dealer have to accept your trade? Some Italian law states that? You wanted to trading in a USED guitar for some of the collateral, understandable. It may be mint, but its a used guitar.

No dealer is going to give you full value of what you originally paid. If you were in business to buy and sell guitars would you give some more that what its worth?

If I'm an official  Gibson Dealer , and a client trade in  a mint Gibson guitar  for a new Gibson guitar worth 7000 K  i must do my utmost to favourite  the deal,  if not you  should be strapped of the GIBSON ROYAL WARRANT , that is a piece of cake  ! 

[rct]

3 hours ago, marco mancini said:

If I'm an official  Gibson Dealer , and a client trade in  a mint Gibson guitar  for a new Gibson guitar worth 7000 K  i must do my utmost to favourite  the deal,  if not you  should be strapped of the GIBSON ROYAL WARRANT , that is a piece of cake  ! 

You really have no idea how this all works, do you?

rct

[Sgt. Pepper]

12 hours ago, rct said:

You really have no idea how this all works, do you?

rct

He does not.

Once a car, or guitar, or anything leaves the dealership, or store its now yours, but its now called "used" when trying to sell it. 

[Eracer_Team]

@Sgt. Pepper actually I don’t think Marco is arguing used vs new

what his argument is: that he bought a guitar for  2,000

now on used market they’re going for $2500

So an increase of $500

his thinking is that a dealer should take it in at $2,000 (the price he paid new) because he feels they should be able to sell it for 500 more (aka $2500 used market price)

they make a 500 profit.

instead the dealer is offering probably something like $1200.  Which is like 60% of when he bought it new as that’s a typical used trade-in ratio.

he feels the dealer is “ripping him off “ as the guitar used is worth 2500. 

 And that the dealer will make something like $1200 instead of the $500 he wants them to make

in return he’s going to order a $5,000 or $6,000 guitar 

feeling that it’s only fair they deal with his rules of what’s fair

to add to this thread: Marco feels that Gibson monitors what all their dealers do business wise and should dictate how and what dealers take in as trade, otherwise feel the wrath of Gibson 

when everyone else knows Gibson only wants to know, did you pay for the shipment of guitars and when are you ordering the next batch

Edited May 17 by Eracer_Team

[Sgt. Pepper]

36 minutes ago, Eracer_Team said:

@Sgt. Pepper actually I don’t think Marco is arguing used vs new

what his argument is: that he bought a guitar for  2,000

now on used market they’re going for $2500

So an increase of $500

his thinking is that a dealer should take it in at $2,000 (the price he paid new) because he feels they should be able to sell it for 500 more (aka $2500 used market price)

they make a 500 profit.

instead the dealer is offering probably something like $1200.  Which is like 60% of when he bought it new as that’s a typical used trade-in ratio.

he feels the dealer is “ripping him off “ as the guitar used is worth 2500. 

 And that the dealer will make something like $1200 instead of the $500 he wants them to make

in return he’s going to order a $5,000 or $6,000 guitar 

feeling that it’s only fair they deal with his rules of what’s fair

to add to this thread: Marco feels that Gibson monitors what all their dealers do business wise and should dictate how and what dealers take in as trade, otherwise feel the rathe of Gibson 

when everyone else knows Gibson only wants to know, did you pay for the shipment of guitars and when are you ordering the next batch

 I've brought gear to stores for sale or trade, and several times they just didn't want  what I had, or I felt they were low-balling me. It doesn't matter what you, I, Reverb, ebay, Marco, or the store he is dealing with thinks the guitar is worth. Its worth what someone can sell it for and what someone will buy it for, and that is it. A day later it might go up or down by 10 dollars or 100's or 1,000's. Its case by case and day by day.

Edited May 17 by Sgt. Pepper

[marco mancini]

20 hours ago, rct said:

You really have no idea how this all works, do you?

rct

Dear RCT   , I do indeed !  the dealer wants to make money for doing nothing ,and since i  realised that  Gibson  can sell its guitar to someone else  the ball is in their court  they won't sell  and one day they will ask the dealer why orders  do not arrive 

back to basics  logic   inn'it ? 

[Twang Gang]

I have had only one experience with an Italian guitar shop, it was many years ago, but it was completely opposite what Marco is feeling.  My family was on trip to Italy, my classical guitar was sitting on the back deck behind the rear seats under the glass rear window.  We stopped for lunch (at least an hour ordeal) and the sun was beating down on that guitar (in a gig bag) under the glass of the rear window.  We got back on the highway and rolled all the windows down (no AC in that car) to cool it down.  We heard a loud bang coming from somewhere at the rear of the car.

When we arrived at our hotel I pulled my guitar out and the bridge had popped completely off the body (presumably from the extreme heat and sudden cool down).  My Dad could see how disappointed I was so off we went in search of a guitar shop.  We found one nearby, it was about closing time, but in spite of the fact we spoke no Italian the shop owner went out of his way to make the guitar playable by fixing a tailpiece to the heel, and re-glueing the bridge back on.  We probably weren't in there more than a half an hour and my guitar was playable again.  I don't recall how much, but he only charged us a few Lira when he could have easily turned us away.

[rct]

5 hours ago, marco mancini said:

Dear RCT   , I do indeed !  the dealer wants to make money for doing nothing ,and since i  realised that  Gibson  can sell its guitar to someone else  the ball is in their court  they won't sell  and one day they will ask the dealer why orders  do not arrive 

back to basics  logic   inn'it ? 

The dealer BUYS his guitars from Gibson, the dealer is the first customer of Gibson.  After the money changes hands, the guitars belong to the dealer and Gibson has, essentially, nothing more to do with the guitars.  They don't care what the dealer does and doesn't do, as long as the dealer remains a customer.  They are not interested in what the dealer does and does not sell or trade, they are interested in what the dealer BUYS, which the dealer will BUY no matter what you do, or think they should do, or how you think it should be.  If the dealer stops putting up the money it takes to be a Gibson dealer, Gibson will then allow a different dealer in your area to pony up for a Gibson outlet, and none of it will have anything to do with your single trade and what you think it should be.

The dealer determines the price HE CAN SELL THE TRADE FOR, not the price others are asking.  From there the dealer determines your trade value.  That's how it works.  If you brought that guitar to my town you would be doing well if you got 1500 for it, because the manager(s) I know would tell you up front that it will be a tough sell for them, no matter what you paid for it and no matter what you see prices on the internet being.

If you know for a fact that you can sell your guitar for 2500, SELL IT YOURSELF, take the money in, and buy what you want.  That is how it works.

You are right, the dealer basically does nothing.  By the same token, when you trade, you are doing nothing, so you have to pay for doing nothing by receiving less than you think you should.

I've been trading since the mid 70's.  I know what I am getting before I get to the store.  Do yourself a favor.  Stop whining about what you paid for it, stop whining about how much they cost on the internet, and understand how trading works.  The dealer will respect you and may just do what he does for me, which is lower the retail on the thing you are trading for by maybe another 10, 15%, and up the trade number on your guitar by another 8, 10% maybe.  Everybody is happy.

rct

[rct]

Dude!

rct