J45/J50 Headstock Finish

[lcjones]

I have recently purchased and it's currently in transit to me,  a J-45 Cherry burst,  No. 804321. Charts list that number as '66 or '69. It is a slope shoulder, not a square shoulder.

It has the natural mahogany finish on the headstock with the gold Gibson logo rather than the black painted headstock. Most photos I've seen of pre-69 headstocks are painted black.  My question is, was there some cutoff date between natural and painted headstock or was it a random thing? 

Chap

[JuanCarlosVejar]

You mean like this headstock  :

https://guitarpoint.de/product/1966-gibson-j-45-cherry-sunburst/
 

??

 

 

JC

[lcjones]

6 minutes ago, JuanCarlosVejar said:

You mean like this headstock  :

https://guitarpoint.de/product/1966-gibson-j-45-cherry-sunburst/
 

??

JC

Yes, in fact I do.

Chap

[JuanCarlosVejar]

8 minutes ago, lcjones said:

Yes, in fact I do.

Chap

Is the “belly” on your guitar’s bridge facing up towards the headstock or down towards the end pin ? 
 

i believe Gibson flipped the orientation of belly of the bridge at some point in 1968 , so if your belly is still a belly down like the one in the  link I posted , it’s probably  earlier than  the 1968 moment of transition . 

if it has the belly pointing up then  it could be a very late 68/early 69  as they were transitioning to the Square shoulder J 45 body .

 

here’s an example of a belly up bridge model : 

https://www.musicgoround.com/product/41121-S000039692/vintage-1969-gibson-j-50adj-acoustic-guitar-w-ohsc

 

JC

[lcjones]

JC,

Thank you for taking the time. It is a bottom belly or belly down rosewood adjustable.

Chap

Edited December 22, 2023 by lcjones

[E-minor7]

On 12/22/2023 at 10:59 PM, JuanCarlosVejar said:

i believe Gibson flipped the orientation of belly of the bridge at some point in 1968 , so if your belly is still a belly down like the one in the  link I posted , it’s probably  earlier than  the 1968 moment of transition . 

if it has the belly pointing up then  it could be a very late 68/early 69  as they were transitioning to the Square shoulder J 45 body .

 

here’s an example of a belly up bridge model : 

https://www.musicgoround.com/product/41121-S000039692/vintage-1969-gibson-j-50adj-acoustic-guitar-w-ohsc

Yes, but that bridge isn't original. Neither is the 1966, which I'm sure U know. 

[E-minor7]

Just now, E-minor7 said:

Yes, but that bridge isn't original. Neither is the 1966, which I'm sure U know. 

But a pretty good looking brown/golden headstock. 

[JuanCarlosVejar]

7 hours ago, E-minor7 said:

Yes, but that bridge isn't original. Neither is the 1966, which I'm sure U know. 

I used that guitar because it exemplifies that original headstock question . And originality has nothing to do with orientation.

both of these still use the same orientation that Gibson would have used and that’s the point …

 

 

JC

Edited December 28, 2023 by JuanCarlosVejar

[cunningham26]

If it has the brown headstock, it's likely '69 as that started showing up with Norlin along with the engraved "J-45" TRC. However that doesn't immediately make it a double-braced boat anchor Norlin- these things aren't hard and fast and you can tell just by picking it up whether it's 70s style or more 60s style with the later appointments. 

to answer your question though, yes the natural headstock doesn't show up until sometime in 68-69 and then through the 70s

[DanvillRob]

On 12/22/2023 at 1:41 PM, lcjones said:

Yes, in fact I do.

Chap

I have that headstock on both my 1969 Jubilee and my 1975 J-50.

[zombywoof]

1 hour ago, cunningham26 said:

If it has the brown headstock, it's likely '69 as that started showing up with Norlin along with the engraved "J-45" TRC. However that doesn't immediately make it a double-braced boat anchor Norlin- these things aren't hard and fast and you can tell just by picking it up whether it's 70s style or more 60s style with the later appointments. 

to answer your question though, yes the natural headstock doesn't show up until sometime in 68-69 and then through the 70s

Cannot lay the headstock on Norlin as ECL did not acquire a controlling interest in CMI until December of 1969.  

While I am not any kind of an expert on Gibson acoustics built this late in the game would not an easy way to tell a 1966 from a 1969 instrument be the nut width?

[cunningham26]

19 minutes ago, zombywoof said:

Cannot lay the headstock on Norlin as ECL did not acquire a controlling interest in CMI until December of 1969.  

While I am not any kind of an expert on Gibson acoustics built this late in the game would not an easy way to tell a 1966 from a 1969 instrument be the nut width?

I think by '66 everything was already 1 9/16th. i've never seen a factory natural headstock on something before 68 or so, and the serials are totally inconsistent. it's like they had numbered necks in a big barrel from 66-70 and they just pulled them randomly

[Boyd]

I would buy the 1969 date for the natural headstock, although most of the ones I've seen are later. FWIW, this is my own 1974 J-50 Deluxe that I bought new

 

Here's the headstock on my 1965 J-50 ADJ that I got in 2015

 

And the full guitar

Edited December 29, 2023 by Boyd

[Dave F]

I bought a 68 J50 that lived a rough life. While not doing too much cosmetically to it, the stripped head stock bugged me so I redid it while trying to not make it too pretty. 

 

[cunningham26]

I wouldnt bat an eye at a natural finish if it played and felt like a '68- if anything they get confused with double-x braced and priced pretty low, but sound every bit as good as a 66-68

[Dave F]

I have no issues with a natural finish headstock with the logo. I've had a few.

[zombywoof]

Me being me, the black Gibson headstock was as much a trademark as anything else I can think of.  The naked headstocks just don't look right.  Is it petty of me though?  You betcha!

[lcjones]

Thank you folks. I appreciate all the information. I've pictured things up. I'm not a luthier by any stretch but I'm handy .... like pockets on a shirt.

This is not a double X braced J. However, it has a bridge plate that is just nuts. My '67 J50 has a beautifully dainty and I believe a maple plate. This J45 has a tectonic plate! The J45 had a hideous black/white layered batwing pick guard that was coming loose. I removed it completely. I was flabbergasted at what I saw. I can't imagine that this was factory. After several hours of elbow grease and KleanStrip paint thinner, I finally removed the glue. It was actually still tacky in places. It literally just peeled off. It also has a broken bridge which I am repairing. We'll see how that goes.  No loose braces that I can tell. It apparently had a crack in the top as there is a small 1" square cleat dead center half way between the end pin block and the  bridge. She was covered in grit and nicotine. I'm using Howard's Clean-n-Finish to clean it up. Great for getting that nicotine off. More elbow grease! As a former smoker, I can't say anything but getting nicotine off a guitar is just no fun what-so-ever. There's the nicotine towel!

Anyway here's some pics of the old gal. The picture with the guard still attached is as I received it.

[DanvillRob]

On 12/29/2023 at 8:21 AM, Boyd said:

I would buy the 1969 date for the natural headstock, although most of the ones I've seen are later. FWIW, this is my own 1974 J-50 Deluxe that I bought new

 

Here's the headstock on my 1965 J-50 ADJ that I got in 2015

 

And the full guitar

Man!   That IS pretty!

[DanvillRob]

37 minutes ago, lcjones said:

Thank you folks. I appreciate all the information. I've pictured things up. I'm not a luthier by any stretch but I'm handy .... like pockets on a shirt.

This is not a double X braced J. However, it has a bridge plate that is just nuts. My '67 J50 has a beautifully dainty and I believe a maple plate. This J45 has a tectonic plate! The J45 had a hideous black/white layered batwing pick guard that was coming loose. I removed it completely. I was flabbergasted at what I saw. I can't imagine that this was factory. After several hours of elbow grease and KleanStrip paint thinner, I finally removed the glue. It was actually still tacky in places. It literally just peeled off. It also has a broken bridge which I am repairing. We'll see how that goes.  No loose braces that I can tell. It apparently had a crack in the top as there is a small 1" square cleat dead center half way between the end pin block and the  bridge. She was covered in grit and nicotine. I'm using Howard's Clean-n-Finish to clean it up. Great for getting that nicotine off. More elbow grease! As a former smoker, I can't say anything but getting nicotine off a guitar is just no fun what-so-ever. There's the nicotine towel!

Anyway here's some pics of the old gal. The picture with the guard still attached is as I received it.

Am looking forward to seeing the finished product!

[lcjones]

On 12/30/2023 at 12:14 PM, DanvillRob said:

Am looking forward to seeing the finished product!

Attaching the bridge today.  The old gal had a week of intense re-hydration therapy. Hydration brought her back to about as normal as it will ever be. Jury still out whether or not to replace that old black pick guard or just leave her without one. Anyway, it'll be a couple more days before she's back together.

[DanvillRob]

2 hours ago, lcjones said:

Attaching the bridge today.  The old gal had a week of intense re-hydration therapy. Hydration brought her back to about as normal as it will ever be. Jury still out whether or not to replace that old black pick guard or just leave her without one. Anyway, it'll be a couple more days before she's back together.

Me (personally) want to see it with a pickguard.