One players flat (b) is another's sharp (#).....

[G u e s t]

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Can one of you musically edumacated Acoustic folk explain in terms to suit a total numpty why, oh why, all the keys that start on keyboard black notes and are referred to as flat (Gb rather than G#) have notes in them that are flattened, but the two white note starting keys with a black note in (the keys of F and contain yet another flat note in F (Bb) but in the key of B it is referred to as a sharp note F#, rather than Gb.....

[Hoss]

It's not anything to do with the color of the keys on the piano-- that's what's confusing you. It has to do with the basic 'formula' for the major scale, in the examples that you give.

(For instance, you can start a scale on the 'white' key of E that has four black keys-- and all of them are 'sharps'.)

[G u e s t]

OK Hoss - I'll rephrase the question.....

 

[i IV V] for all bar one keys have flattened notes in them.

Why is the key of B's V sharpened F rather than flattened G

As in:-

A : A-D-E

Bb: Bb-Eb-F

B : B-E-F# <<< why not Gb

C : C-F-G

Db: Db-Gb-Ab

D : D-G-A

Eb: Eb-Ab-Bb

E : E-A-B

F : F-Bb-C

Gb: Gb-B-Db

G : G-C-D

Ab: Ab-Db-Eb

[Acousticat]

Maybe this will help you. Major Scales

[ballcorner]

The simple explanation is that no scale is permitted to have the same letter twice.

 

SO

 

B Major Scale: B C# D# E F# G# A#

 

If you had the F# as Gb - then the G# would have to be Ab (still no problem) but then when you had to change the A# to Bb you would have a second B

[G u e s t]

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Thank you ballcorner, for a cogent, short and pertinent answer.

You have explained it perfectly.

Excellent.

:-

[rar]

Gb: Gb-B-Db

 

So, now that you get it, you see why some people who take this stuff seriously would tell you that the IV in Gb is properly called "Cb", not "B". (And similarly for calling an F that's functioning as a sharpened E "E#".)

 

-- Bob R

[G u e s t]

Makes sense rar, makes sense. Never paid any attention to these things before, but after 45 years playing by ear I figured some theory might not go amiss. First step was trying to transpose "on the fly" for off-the-cuff key changes. I accompany mainly, and when the key changes, my ears and fingers behave..... but my brain doesn't know the why of it.

 

Now thanks to ballcorner (to whom much respect) I can at least intellectualise it as I play it. Problem is I find it a bit like driving or chopping wood - as soon as I start actually thinking about it rather than just doing it, I falter and stumble. Hey ho..... I will persevere. I will get to the stage where, when somebody yells "up to B flat" mid-number, my fingers will automatically go "Bb-Eb-F" with NO intervention from my brain. Pesky brain. Always thunkin' 'bout summit or other.....

 

Oh - and Acousticat, thanks for that. Man - I've only been at it for 45 years, that's waaaay advanced for me, but I have downloaded the file and printed it off, and am taking it a step at a time. Cool stuff, but boy, it makes my brain as sore as my fingers used to get back in the sixties.....

[albertjohn]

Great thread folks. Thanks.

[ballcorner]

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Thank you ballcorner' date=' for a cogent, short and pertinent answer.

You have explained it perfectly.

Excellent.

:-

[/quote']

 

I am just glad you asked something I could help with. My best friend is a modal jazz player - when he talks about his approach to guitar I just nod my head and pretend like I did in physics. Then I choose (d) all of the above and hope for the best!