Intervals: A key part of soloing and solid guitar theory.

[Californiaman]

I've been working on intervals lately.  Went down a rabbit hole that forces me to think about what I'm doing, or in the case of this morning's discovery, other guitarists playing.

A while ago I learned the solo Jimi Page uses on Achilles Last Stand.  The one where he takes a run up the neck.  I remember reading once that he wanted to create a solo where he used every note in the scale and have it sound remarkable.

I love it when I figure stuff out on guitar. 

Page's ascending run up the neck is fantastic.  It's musical genius.  It is played on the third and fourth strings and is known as an Interval of a 6th.

Starting on the fifth fret of the G string, Page plays C.  The he plays A on the D string, 7th fret.  Next two notes are D to B.  Then another interval 6th, E to C.  He continues in the key of C through the remainder of the scale.  So, F-D, G-E, A-F, G-B right up to the 19th fret of the D string.

It's a beautifully crafted Major sixth run through the C Major scale.

Give it a try.

 

 

[duane v]

Funny thing when I first pick up a guitar (when I was 8), the only thing I wanted to learn was the Day Tripper riff. I spent hours and didn't care one iota about learning chords. Then once I learned the Day Tripper riff it was off to learning any song that had an opening riff. I really didn't start thinking about chords until a year of first picking up a guitar.

I think the reason why I initially had the above approach to guitar is because of my rigid piano teacher from 5 to 8 years old.... all she wanted me to play was Vivaldi Four Seasons. And when I was eight I took up the trumpet, and when I couldn't immediately play it like Doc Severinsen and had to really practice and learn the basics, that put my patience to the test.

For me guitar was something I could play without any walls closing in on me, the only thing was the initial caulis building was a little bothersome.  The guitar for me had a special kind of freedom where I didn't have to look over my shoulder.

 

[Californiaman]

Well, I must say my learning curve has been a long and winding road.  See what I did there?

I've even found a mistake in my original post.  The song is performed in Em.  That means one sharp,  F#.  Which means that Interval Run of Sixths, is actually (C-A, D-B, E-C, F#-D, G-E, A-F#, B-G, C-A) played on the G&D strings respectively.

It makes sense because the song's intro, that really melodic guitar picking, moves from Em to F#m.  The chords Page plays after the interval sixth run up the neck are also Em & F#m.  They're played on the G, D, B strings in the 16th (F#m) and 14th (Em) positions.

I remember playing the cornet when younger.  Didn't stick with it and have been a self-taught guitar player since the mid-80s.  Started with bass and moved to guitar when I bought my ES-175 in 1988.

[sparquelito]

Musicians often confuse the learning of music theory with the need to learn to read sheet music. 

And for most self-taught guitar players, most of whom will never become a session cat,  there seems to be a smug satisfaction that we can play live and in bands, and perform all these great songs without reading a note. 

Then, over the years, it begins to dawn on us;
We have learned music theory anyway.
By trial and error. 
Practical experience.
Figuring out what sounds 'right', and why, intuitively, this chord structure has a pleasing feel and progression to it.  

And that chord progression and those notes over there just sound wrong.  
Even by modern jazz standards. 

And in the end, the sheet music serves a very specific purpose, for those who either need it to perform, or those session players who want to show up to the studio, deliver the goods, and get paid. 

I guess I'm confessing two things here. 
* I have indeed come to know a great deal about music theory, and intervals, the circle of fifths, quarter notes, triplets, eight beats to the bar, and scales. 
and,
* Though I have studied sheet music, and understand what all those black symbols on the staff there mean, It's nothing I will ever need to use and put into practice. 
I'm just too slow in the deciphering of it, and there's no point in really ever learning it correctly.  Not at my age. 

Great topic and discussion, Californiaman. 
Thanks for kick-starting it and rolling it out onto the driveway. 

🙂

 

 

[Dub-T-123]

22 hours ago, duane v said:

Funny thing when I first pick up a guitar (when I was 8), the only thing I wanted to learn was the Day Tripper riff. I spent hours and didn't care one iota about learning chords. Then once I learned the Day Tripper riff it was off to learning any song that had an opening riff. I really didn't start thinking about chords until a year of first picking up a guitar.

I think the reason why I initially had the above approach to guitar is because of my rigid piano teacher from 5 to 8 years old.... all she wanted me to play was Vivaldi Four Seasons. And when I was eight I took up the trumpet, and when I couldn't immediately play it like Doc Severinsen and had to really practice and learn the basics, that put my patience to the test.

For me guitar was something I could play without any walls closing in on me, the only thing was the initial caulis building was a little bothersome.  The guitar for me had a special kind of freedom where I didn't have to look over my shoulder.

 

Funny, my first instrument was trumpet and the first thing I learned on guitar was the Day Tripper intro. Pretty much the same story all around

[fortyearspickn]

My first instrument was the guitar.  I started my journey by discovering the notes/melodies to a half-dozen songs - riffs or choruses - on my own.   I played them ad nauseam,  (like the Theme Song to the TV Show  "Bonanza" (20th century precursor to 'Yellowstone') to the point my parents sprung for a couple of years of weekly guitar lessons.   To me,  'music' is  like 'language'.  You can talk, and listen without being able to read. Two different 'mediums'. But, being able to read (and write) doubles your ability to communicate.   The point, well made by Sparky,  for 'music' - few of us NEED to be able to actually read (and write) music. Only the  'professionals'.   But I would have never gotten to the point of being a true 'amateur' if I had not learned how to read music. 

[Karloff]

Not trying to dismiss previous statements or elevate myself in any way, I don't concern myself with any of that.  I just play.  Just try to pull out of the guitar what I hear in my head. I wish I had a better understanding of theory, but I'm lazy. 

Edited May 7 by Karloff

[duane v]

42 minutes ago, Karloff said:

Not trying to dismiss previous statements or elevate myself in any way, I don't concern myself with any of that.  I just play.  Just try to pull out of the guitar what I hear in my head. I wish I had a better understanding of theory, but I'm lazy. 

Honestly that is the best approach IMO.

I know how to read music in all keys... Bass Clef, Treble Clef, Eflat, C and the famous Concert Bflat..... When it comes to my rocknroll it doesn't give a crap about all that stuff. 

My crutch is the record button.... especially when I'm controlling the record button. For some reason it takes me about 10-15 extra takes to get used to me hitting the record button when laying down a track. I'm much more efficient when someone else is hitting the record button.

[Karloff]

17 minutes ago, duane v said:

Honestly that is the best approach IMO.

I know how to read music in all keys... Bass Clef, Treble Clef, Eflat, C and the famous Concert Bflat..... When it comes to my rocknroll it doesn't give a crap about all that stuff. 

My crutch is the record button.... especially when I'm controlling the record button. For some reason it takes me about 10-15 extra takes to get used to me hitting the record button when laying down a track. I'm much more efficient when someone else is hitting the record button.

I played piano from 7 to 9 yrs old.  lazy, used my ear, could care less about theory.  played trombone from 9 to 13. lazy, could care less about theory, used my ear to see & understand how I fit in with the rest of the school band. started guitar lessons at 14. they couldn't throw enough theory at me fast enough. I soaked it up like a sponge. I had to learn to play guitar, get in a band & get laid ... lol.  once I started playing in bands the following year I realized being lazy & developing my ear and listening to how I fit within a group context was more useful than theory.  I still wish I had a strong understanding of theory though.  my laziness is alive & well

Edited May 7 by Karloff

[Californiaman]

I think, for most of us, playing by ear is an integral part of learning a particular piece of music. How many times have we honed in on the bass note in order to get a chord, let alone the chord progression down. 

The very first time I heard Tom Petty’s Honey Bee, I knew I could play it because of my audial training over the years. And that included the main riff and timing. Once I got my guitar in my hands playing the song was easy.

I watched a Rick Beato video of Top 10 Country songs and he was calling out root note, chord and progression for all 10 songs and pointing the uniqueness of each progression. They weren’t all I, IV, V chords either . It was good and points out the relationship between listening and having a basic understanding of rudimentary theory .

Still, I know plenty of players who just hear it and play it. 

[Karloff]

1 hour ago, Californiaman said:

I think, for most of us, playing by ear is an integral part of learning a particular piece of music. How many times have we honed in on the bass note in order to get a chord, let alone the chord progression down. 

The very first time I heard Tom Petty’s Honey Bee, I knew I could play it because of my audial training over the years. And that included the main riff and timing. Once I got my guitar in my hands playing the song was easy.

I watched a Rick Beato video of Top 10 Country songs and he was calling out root note, chord and progression for all 10 songs and pointing the uniqueness of each progression. They weren’t all I, IV, V chords either . It was good and points out the relationship between listening and having a basic understanding of rudimentary theory .

Still, I know plenty of players who just hear it and play it. 

I really enjoy Beato's videos 

[NighthawkChris]

For me someone that can play piano and guitar, I use sheet music for piano (easier) and tabs for guitar (again easier). Most time I try with guitar to play what I’m hearing, but might - these days - resort to a video or site that attempts to tabulate some song of interest. 

If you’re into lead guitar, learning about scales and chords helps a lot. To “properly” phrase in a song of a certain key let’s say, have to know your intervals and the like. 

Scales and modes started to make sense to me after I learned what the numbers of a chord meant - e.g., A13 chord. You’re always playing 1, 3, and 5 plus dominant 7th, 9, 11, and 13… what do these mean, understanding intervals answers this. 

So theory isn’t completely useless. It’s just another tool in the bag. Doesn’t hurt to learn something if you don’t know it in this case.

[Sheepdog1969]

I was formally trained as a concert/symphonic trombonist, and then graduated into a nationally recognized HS funk/jazz band. We toured nationally and throughout Europe and recorded an album each year of original works written by Doug Beach and other talented composers. I can read bass clef in my sleep. I was trained to be able to proficiently "sight read" any piece of previously unseen music, regardless of it's style or key. I have done so countless times, as part of competitions, during "try outs", and/or when ever it was required. Sadly, my school course load never allowed me to take theory, but but my ears began to learn, over decades of playing and listening, the formulaic nature of chord progressions. My instructor's intense focus on improvisation with-in "solo" sections of known arrangements exponentially expanded my knowledge of musical boundaries. I particularly enjoyed how the playing of a dissonant, seemingly off key note, could introduce an uncomfortable emotion, which would generate an even more powerful/reassuring feeling when followed by a "gliss" to the "on key" root of the next key change, (especially when that key change was a transition from minor to major) It was like inducing a gut tightening wince to a relaxing "aaahhh". It is a totally "out of bounds" move, but it works.

Simply being able to effectively read sheet music, and or having an educated understanding of music theory, is no replacement for the soulful interaction one has with music. Swing and/or Jazz sheet music is not written in the way it is to be played. If anyone were to play Pennsylvania 6-5000 as it is written, it would sound nothing like how most of us know the song. Just playing sheet music as written is pathetically sterile and sad. Just mechanically following the "acceptable/traditional" music theory progressions, is just building another Hyundai, or Bob Ross landscape. Without soul, and the willingness to color outside the lines, music is just boring math/calculus.

My guitar experience, being a Treble clef instrument, was based on "learning by rote". I was shown how to fret a chord and told the name of that chord, and I copied what I was shown. (Three chords and the truth style). I never ventured beyond the 5th fret until I F-ed around and learned darn near every variation of the chords I had previously been shown. Being left handed, I saw guitar chords and riffs I picked up as shapes/patterns. I still see my fingers on the fretboard the same way to this day. My musical training taught me to hear the next note I was to play in my head before I played it. I tend to navigate the fretboard by knowing what sound will be produced by fretting a string on the fretboard canvass, based on my experience with that canvass. I defiantly couldn't tell what note I am playing while I improvise, but I might be able to tell you the Key, because I am fundamentally a Rhythm guitarist who enjoys laying the foundation of a tune more than "making it cry or sing".  I am still learning, and I still love it.