Hemlock Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 I have a 2021 50’s J45 Original where the OEM bridge pins were a horrible fit. I ordered a custom set from Bob Colosi and they now fit nice and snug in the holes, but I noticed the bridge pin holes were drilled at an angle. I thought it was due to the bad fitting pins, and while they may have made it look worse than it actually is, the holes are in fact angled. The top button of the pins tilts towards the neck, and the pointy tip tilts towards the end pin. Any cause for concern with this? I did have the holes key-holed to use with the non-slotted pins I purchased, so the strings should be locked in fairly well. I am including a photo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buc McMaster Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 Probably not cause for structural concern, but it's very likely the "key-hole" drilling is the culprit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemlock Posted August 20 Author Share Posted August 20 Are you suggesting the key-holes and reaming created more space for the pins to lean? I did have a local luthier do the work. I can see that increasing the space would cause more wiggle room for the pins to lean, so that makes sense there. He did say before he went to work that he tested with a drill bit and that leaned as well. He stated he’s seen them angle the other way in some older Gibsons (top button leaning toward the end pin) but had never seen them lean this way, that they should be perpendicular now. If it’s not a cause for concern then I won’t worry, just had me wondering from the information he told me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhanners623 Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 I’m no repairman, but I wouldn’t think it is cause for concern. It’s not going to affect how the strings interact with the bridge and saddle, nor should it impact the structural integrity of the bridge/top gluing surface. As I recall, the pin holes on my ‘16 J-35 are drilled at a 5-degree angle, with the top of the pin leaning towards the endpin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 Some folks feel it's important that the pin holes not be too far from the saddle, so you have a good angle on the string coming out of the hole. - say 45º instead of 40º. ( Like you can get on a double inlay bridge on a J200 instead of a single inlay.) Some folks feel it's important to have a slot cut in front of the pin hole - a ramp to sort of reduce the +/- 45º angle the string would otherwise take coming out to the hole. Then there's the school of slotted bridge pins VS unslotted! I guess we can dismiss the cosmetics and assume the only 2 issues here are tone and structural integrity. The former is subjective. The latter is a matter of physics or engineering I guess. I'd lean towards a straight perpendicular hole being immeasurably more secure. Just checked mine. Yep. Six holes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buc McMaster Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 15 hours ago, Hemlock said: He did say before he went to work that he tested with a drill bit and that leaned as well. This ain't right. The original pin holes are tapered bores........a drill bit is not tapered, straight as an arrow, and in no way could be used to determine how true the bore was. Your photo appears to show the lean of the pins under tension in an oversized hole. How do the pins fit without strings? Do they lean forward or do they bottom in the hole with the pin skirt flush and level? As I said, this shouldn't be an issue beyond the fact that the pins aren't visually straight in the holes............play it! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62burst Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 At this point, it would be interesting to get photo showing the condition of the bridgeplate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave F Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 (edited) What's going on with them holes? Did someone countersink them and get off center? Do the pins wobble in the holes before you seat them? Edited August 22 by Dave F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 It occurred to me, in reading some of the great comments here - how risky it is to have someone unqualified work on our guitars. I'm sure the luthier in this case was qualified to cut the keyhole slot, it just raises the question. While loose braces and cracks can be glued relatively easily - nuts, bridges and necks have tight tolerances and inter-relationships that have to be fine-tuned. I would not take a Maserati to a Shade Tree Mechanic. I have no idea if the OP's "local luthier' violated the "First, do no harm." code - but, once your car, guitar, etc. leaves your hands - you have no way of knowing if someone tried to tweak your brakes or your break angle and messed it up. Then the question is - was it messed up before the luthier touched it? Which opens a can of worms: Prior luthier or Guitar Center Tech work? Prior owner? Bozeman QC ? We've had threads here discussing pins oversized for the pinholes, and always caution - "Don't ream out the bridge / bridge plate holes - sand down the pins." - you can always buy a new set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemlock Posted August 22 Author Share Posted August 22 (edited) On 8/21/2024 at 7:13 AM, Buc McMaster said: This ain't right. The original pin holes are tapered bores........a drill bit is not tapered, straight as an arrow, and in no way could be used to determine how true the bore was. Your photo appears to show the lean of the pins under tension in an oversized hole. How do the pins fit without strings? Do they lean forward or do they bottom in the hole with the pin skirt flush and level? As I said, this shouldn't be an issue beyond the fact that the pins aren't visually straight in the holes............play it! Gibson's customer service stated they drill the holes without taper when I reached out to their customer service to see what size of pins I needed. They also said a 5 degree pin is needed, but that was not true, so go figure. The pins are snug and still lean without strings. No wiggle room. They do not sit flush or level due to the lean, but they are in there solid. The front portion of the collar bottoms out while the back part does not, but they do insert all the way snugly. On 8/21/2024 at 9:16 AM, 62burst said: At this point, it would be interesting to get photo showing the condition of the bridgeplate. I'll try to get a photo later. Anything specific you are wanting to see? There is the hole for the the pickup element to feed through. The pickup has since been removed. A drop of glue is on the plate, but this looks like someone got a little messy during assembly. The string balls are lock into the keyhole slots and bridge pins are in there snug. 15 hours ago, Dave F said: What's going on with them holes? Did someone countersink them and get off center? Do the pins wobble in the holes before you seat them? The pins do not wobble. If they have a countersink to them then that is how it arrived from the factory. I am the first and only owner of the guitar. I picked this one out in person from Music Villa's Bozeman location (there is now one in Billings as well). I asked Gibson if the angle was intentional. They stated they should be perpendicular and chalked it up to being a handmade instrument. I tried to watch videos of how they assemble the guitars in the Bozeman factory, and the video series I found conveniently ended before they drilled the bridge pins holes (it didn't even show the process of them installing the bridge). Seems like the bridge is one of the last things that gets installed and set up which makes sense. I wanted to see the machine that drills the holes and how it works out of curiosity. I appreciate all the responses. I'll just play the damn thing. Edited August 22 by Hemlock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62burst Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 (edited) 1 hour ago, Hemlock said: Gibson's customer service stated they drill the holes without taper when I reached out to their customer service to see what size of pins I needed. They also said a 5 degree pin is needed, but that was not true, so go figure. The pins are snug and still lean without strings. No wiggle room. They do not sit flush or level due to the lean, but they are in there solid. The front portion of the collar bottoms out while the back part does not, but they do insert all the way snugly. I'll try to get a photo later. Anything specific you are wanting to see? There is the hole for the the pickup element to feed through. The pickup has since been removed. A drop of glue is on the plate, but this looks like someone got a little messy during assembly. The string balls are lock into the keyhole slots and bridge pins are in there snug. The pins do not wobble. If they have a countersink to them then that is how it arrived from the factory. I am the first and only owner of the guitar. I picked this one out in person from Music Villa's Bozeman location (there is now one in Billings as well). I asked Gibson if the angle was intentional. They stated they should be perpendicular and chalked it up to being a handmade instrument. I tried to watch videos of how they assemble the guitars in the Bozeman factory, and the video series I found conveniently ended before they drilled the bridge pins holes (it didn't even show the process of them installing the bridge). Seems like the bridge is one of the last things that gets installed and set up which makes sense. I wanted to see the machine that drills the holes and how it works out of curiosity. I appreciate all the responses. I'll just play the damn thing. 1 hour ago, Hemlock said: I'll try to get a photo later. Anything specific you are wanting to see? There is the hole for the the pickup element to feed through. The pickup has since been removed. A drop of glue is on the plate, but this looks like someone got a little messy during assembly. The string balls are lock into the keyhole slots and bridge pins are in there snug. The pins do not wobble. If they have a countersink to them then that is how it arrived from the factory. I am the first and only owner of the guitar. I picked this one out in person from Music Villa's Bozeman location (there is now one in Billings as well). I appreciate all the responses. I'll just play the damn thing. The reason for wanting to see what the bridgeplate looked like= was a drill bit run straight through the ‘plate(?), and if the plate had also gotten keyholed, a topic which has some controversy to its merits. A vintage Gibson / Martin specialist I know takes great pains to be sure not to cut into the bridgeplate when ramping a bridge. Were the leaning pins evident before having the local luthier work/drill on the bridge? I’ve had an old guitar have its bridge pin holes inserted with dowel pin of similar wood grain, and re-drilled, to correct an improperly installed bridge on a guitar… Almost all of this stuff is fixable. Yes, just play the guitar, but when you (I)can’t do that, at least we (I) can talk about them. Edited August 22 by 62burst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave F Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 3 hours ago, 62burst said: … Yes, just play the guitar, but when you (I)can’t do that, at least we (I) can talk about them. I think I’m entering that stage of my life. 😀 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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