caffienated sponge Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Hi guys! I'm new so please be nice! Ok, So I have an SG that I bought very cheap and second hand around 1986ish. It's obviously been played with, and when I got it it had a full face chrome pickguard and walnutty finish, that made me think someone was trying to look like the Steve Cropper SG in The Blues Brothers movie. There look to be filled holes that could have been a vibrola, currently fitted is a Leo Quann Badass wrapover one piece tail. Machines were Schaller M3 types with normal shaped buttons and black plastic back bodies. Nut was bone, truss cover missing. Electronic cavity has a brass ground plate in it. Neck is single bound (old looking binding), fingerboard has dot markers. Someone's added a couple of mini DPDT's for coil splits or whatever. Pickups when I got it aren't relevant as I no longer have them due to disaster, but one was an uncovered pat no gibbo and the other was an old Ibanez super 70 or something, both reworked 4+ (for aforementioned switching) Really strange part is head: there's a six figure ink stamped serial on the back, but the front had been sanded flat, obviously with the pegs off. This had left the black paint flat and matte, and an inlay shaped like a filled in silhouette of a gibson logo in the appropriate place. No other inlay. Some time later, I hand painted some lines (not very well) over the top of the inlay so that it looked more like a gibson logo, and sprayed the head with auto clear coat. I've never touched the finish elsewhere, and it feels more like a stain or something? Smooth and unglossy, grain very visible. The instrument played really well until I wore the frets out, and has now been in a box for about 15 years or so. I'm jsut about to resurrect it, and was wondering if I should be attaching special car to getting it refretted. The board looks pretty dry, so I'm feeding it at the moment. The guitar is currently a piece of wood with no hardware attached. I can give any other info or pictures that anyone would like. Frets are wide and flat and looked like they'd been stoned an awful lot (!). They're practically line markers now, and really need replacing. If it turns out it's a fairly skilful copy and not a Gibson, to be honest I'm not really going to lose any sleep over it, as it was a nice instrument, and given it's hacked about state I only paid £125 for it (in '86) so it really doesn't owe me anything. If it counts for anything, the original electronic cavity cover snapped while i was working in there (put on floor and stepped on) so I ordered a replacement from Gibson. The replacement was exactly the right shape and had screw holes in exactly the right places. Thanks in advance for any help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRom Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Pics would be very helpful. Body, neck, headstock - both sides Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffienated sponge Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 Can't promise I'll have them up tonight, but will be there by morning. Bear in mind that I've modified the headstock face as stated (painted in lines for logo and sprayed clearcoat). I was wondering about maybe an SG special or something? Should I post number that puports to be the serial or obscure it somehow? I don't really see a problem with publicising it, but just checking it's ok to do first... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffienated sponge Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 Pictures! Apologies for flash bursts etc, only used a compact. If I ever rebuild the thing as a proper player I'll take some nice pics with proper bounce flash and side fill etc! Keep in mind that the headstock had been sanded down to a matte black with an un-adorned inlay the shape of a Gibson logo. I painted in lines (crudely) with black artist's acrylic (will peel off) and oversprayed with auto clear coat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmiJAMM Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 The mystery remains. To be continued... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffienated sponge Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 lol! Sorry, mucked up the img codes... think you posted before I got the stuff linked properly... (was edited) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 I'm anxious to see it but *%#&^ photobucket is blocked here at work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffienated sponge Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 Would posting pics from elsewhere help? Happy to help if I can! Serial appears to read 851603, which I think would put the guitar around 1966 if genuine. Based on what I read in a pdf of the Blue Book, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbonesullivan Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 looks like a stripped down SG special. It's got the 3 screw holes for the vibrola, and has the routes for P90s and the full pickguard. Also it's got the proper bushings for the wraparound tailpiece, which was used on the SG special even though it had the Vibrola. Judging from appearance, I'd say it's genuine. That style of neck joint fits with the later 60's period. so now the question is, where's the rest of it? also, it appears that the electronics were modified, possibly with stacked p90s (those would be coil taps). Also from the holes on the top it looks like it's been refinished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackie Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 mmm.....neck is bound with dot inlay..........looks like p-90's might fit in there........mmm Gibson logo looks applied later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbonesullivan Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 didn't SG specials from back then have MOP inlayed logos? also remember the logo is at the bottom of kind of a "pit" and is filled over with clear coat, so if the flash is right you can see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffienated sponge Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 OK, the pups had been replaced wiht humbuckers when I got the guitar. They have since been unfortunately lost, one was a gibson black-stickered patent number, one an ibanez of late 70s vintage. Both had 4-conductor wiring and if I remember, both were wired for coil-phase switching, which sounds odd, but hey I just found it. Original scratch plate had been replaced with a shiny metal full-face one, that looked home-cut. Truss plate was missing also. There's an over-size piece of mother-of-pearl where the logo should be. If you imagine taking a gibson logo and then drawing a simplified outline around it, around th eflared stoke on the n and such, including all the extra blank space, that;s the shape of it. I assumed that a sharply cut veneer or possibly a black sticker or black silk-screen print originally completed the logo by supplying the black bits. It would be a lot easier and cheaper than precicion cutting that logo out of brittle MOP and then cutting a hole in the head to drop it into. I assume the Special was a relatively cheap model? The bushings for the bridge may have been replaced. Like I say, it came supplied with a Leo Quann 'Badass' one-piece wraparound, compensated tail. The posts are really quite chunky. The binding looks like it may have had rubs/scrapes/dirty bits painted over with white in places, and a few of th eblack dots up the side have been obviously paint spotted. I had planned to cut down a pair od SD Hot Jazzmaster pups I have spare to humbucker size and mount them. There's an awful lot of unused bobbin with no winding to cut into, dimensionally the idea is sound, I'm just not sure if it's a good idea. So, should the guitar originally have had P90's? I've been fancying something with P90's for a bit, so maybe now's the time. Finally, am I likely to have issues with the rosewood board when it comes to fret time, or should I give the job to a pro? My experience is with 80s fender boards and fresh rosewood blanks. So long as I give it plenty of lemon oil to drink and heat the frets should I be ok? It's already fretted with pretty wide wire across the top of the binding. Random thought, is it likely to be worth attempting a restoration, or should I just keep it as a nice player? If a resto is likely to be very expensive, I'm quite happy with a nice player that doesn't look special... Thanks everyone who's contributed, and any more thoughts greatfully recieved! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackie Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 I would get it in playing condition and since it has those extra switches you could have a lot of sound options with the right pups. I am leaning against it being a Gibson but it looks like it is built well. It may be an early special but the ones I have looked at from that era are different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffienated sponge Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 Cool. It was my second guitar, so it's special to me anyway. My thinking is that even if it was real, it has little or no vintage value due to being missing everything but the wood. On one hand that's why I got it cheap, on the other hand I was a 14 or 15 year old kid, and I would never have been able to afford it if it had been more expensive. When it became unplayable (a couple of years later!) I'd just spent all my money on a strat and a Marshall so I couldn't afford to pay for it to be refretted, and it just got put off ever since, even though I've bought and sold lots of guitars and amps since. So I'll give it a careful refret and whack some pickups back in there and see! Maybe I'll return the head to it's sanded state and try and tidy the logo up. Any hints and tips on that would be appreciated too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80LPC Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Looks genuine to me. With that control cavity shield I would say it's late '60s. Don't swamp the fretboard with lemon oil (petroleum distillates), it will cause more damage. If the guitar has been kept in a stable environment, there shouldn't be any issues at all. Before considering a refret, measure the fret height - you might be ok with a level and recrown. If you do go for the refret, carefully make sure the truss rod is working and lubricate the thread. Applying a small amount of back-bow to the neck will open up the fret slots to help removal. As you say, a soldering iron will help by softening any gunge or glue and reduce chipping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffienated sponge Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 Ummm. Okay, I take that lemon oil is petroleum based in nature, but I was under the impression it was good for fingerboards? I've only really used it for cleaning things up in the past. Reading around the web brings up lots of conflicting opinions, even those suggesting mineral based engine oil, and cooking products. Would something like danish or linseed (either in moderation) be suitable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbonesullivan Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 lemon oil should only be used in small quantities to clean and improve the appearance of the fretboard. Never "swamp" the board with it. A little never hurts. Linseed oil... blech. Smelly, and also it'll form a "finish" on the fingerboard as it oxidizes. Great for gun stocks, but not for fretboards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffienated sponge Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 Hm, ok. That wipes out about the only solutions I'd found that I hadn't already found similar problems with. So, apart from great cleaning products, there's basically nothing that's a good idea for making an old dry board less dry? Don't get me wrong, it's not like it's flaking apart or anything, it's nice and tight and solid, I was just thinking it might be a bit brittle to go trying to prise fretwire out of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffienated sponge Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 When I do use lemon oil for cleaning, I generally give the bottle a quick pump onto a piece of folded kitchen towel, which I then wipe across the frets with, paying attention to the wire edges. My understanding is that this helps get rid of stuff that's building up on the board that will in time attack the wood and definitely the wire? Afterwards, I leave it for an hour or so, then buff the board, then usually leave it overnight to air before restringing. Possibly overkil, but that's my routine. Don't normally do this more than every 6 months or so, but I know peeps who religiously get the lemon oil out ever string change... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbonesullivan Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 I just use the lemon oil when it looks... well.. dry and/or dirty. IT really does help the board stay nice and smooth and smells nice too. also with ebony, it really helps keep the brittleness away. Yes, I know that naturally wood doesn't have oil in it, but on the other hand naturally it would be full of water when it was part of the tree. after drying you've gotta replace at least some of the water with something, and unlike water lemon oil isn't reactive and won't evaporate as fast or penetrate as far. It also doesn't cause wood swelling like water does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxRab Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 I'd say you have a 66 or 69 SG Special, I say 66 or 69 because those numbers crossed in those 2 years......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80LPC Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 So' date=' apart from great cleaning products, there's basically nothing that's a good idea for making an old dry board less dry? Don't get me wrong, it's not like it's flaking apart or anything, it's nice and tight and solid, I was just thinking it might be a bit brittle to go trying to prise fretwire out of.[/quote'] Re the 'dry board', how do you know it is dry ? Wood is constantly losing / absorbing moisture depending on the humidity of it's surroundings. I'm sure you are not leaning the guitar against radiators or leaving it in the sun either... And you are in North Yorkshire, far from being an arid desert ! Freshly planed timber might look too 'dry' but it isn't. We've all become accustomed to the doctored appearance of wood with treatments and oils etc, so that when we see natural timber we think there must be something wrong with it. I think the occasional use of lemon oil and similar products is fine. It's useful to have something which degreases the surface and it certainly adds lustre to the fretboard. Note that there has been accounts of excessive use causing swelling. What I would say is that we all know that carefully dried and seasoned wood is an important part of instrument building. The tone benefits are widely quoted. It isn't really necessary to replace the lost moisture with an alien substance. Would anyone pump oil into their vintage SG or LP bodies ? I refretted a 1959 Watkins Rapier with a rosewood board. The guitar had been neglected and never cleaned - not a drop of lemon oil had ever touched it. It was a mess. But... the frets came out with minimal chipping. I would just add that the best thing you can do to preserve your fretboard is free. Cut your fingernails ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffienated sponge Posted September 28, 2009 Author Share Posted September 28, 2009 Okay, I take your point! I'm probably obsessing and should just get the soldering iron and pliers out already... ! You've probably actually hit it bang on with the 'being used to doctored appearances'... Basically, it looks relatively light, it's alwys felt particularly hard as a fretboard, and I read a lot of people talking about having to be obsessively careful with old rosewood boards 'because they dry out and are hard to work with' Maybe it's actually OK and I don't need to pamper it... :D Maybe I just have a great fretboard and should celebrate! For the record, I'm quite obsessive about my fretboard fingernails, but I bend strings excessively and have that dreadful 'blues shake' finger vibrato style... by the time anyone showed me how to do that from the wrist it was *way* too late... Talking about not being in an arid desert though... you should see how dry and dusty it can get on the top of the moors (where I am). Ok, when it rains, it RAINS and sometimes you spend all week sitting in a cloud, but the rest of the time it's sun, wind or both... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80LPC Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Well you obviously care a lot about this guitar, and I don't blame you for being a little obsessive ! I'm curious about the pliers you mention. Have you ground or adapted them in some way ? Ground end-nippers are very good for fret removal. They actually help prevent chipping due to the wedging action which simultaneously presses down on the fretboard and on the underside of the fret bead. I have two sizes - a medium sized one for larger radius and flat boards, and a small nipper for smaller radius boards like the '50s style fenders. The smaller one tracks the radius and helps to get a start under the bead. That dreadful 'blues shake' is the ultimate vibrato... I have never been able to quite master it ...! And I know that kind of weather. I'm on the pennines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffienated sponge Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 ;) I take your point about pliers... Loose use of the word, my apologies! What I meant was something like these that have paid a little visit to my bench grinder (and then been dressed for rough bits etc...) I'm in the 'self-taught' category... for the first couple of years I was constantly discovering that cool things I'd figured out had proper names and in some cases slightly different techniques... I'd been told to 'just wobble the string about', and had a good grip for a 13 year old... and of course I hadn't been taught that it was 'bad' having your thumb hooked all round the neck! I also didn't have pedals or multi-channel amps for a couple of years, so got the habit of controlling volume with the guitar pot and playing dynamics. That first Futurama with the action you could drive a bus under helped lots in some respects, but I didn't really make progress until I got my SG, as it was so much more playable. As I said, it was sad in some respects that a previous owner had butchered it so badly, but if they hadn't I'd never have been able to buy it on paper-round money, no matter how hard I saved! So, yeah, it's pretty special to me... any guitar you've had around for 25 or so years is going to be, I suppose! I think the trick to perfecting the 'blues shake' vibrato is in studying the faces BB King pulls... I take the point someone else made that I might possibly get away with a fret-dress... I think it's too far gone for that, but I'll try to post a picture that clearly shows the profile before I start work on it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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