Blackie Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Guitar Center offers a huge collection of axes, yet its heft may not be helping consumers. According to a recent lawsuit from law firm Hagens Berman Sobol Shapiro, both Guitar Center and the National Association of Music Manufacturers (NAMM) have been conspiring to artificially control pricing on guitars. The class action lawsuit applies not only to electric guitars, but a wider range of fretted instruments. The suit, filed with the US District Court in California, points to backroom meetings focused on price-fixing. Those meetings, dating back to 2001, allegedly revolved around preserving profit margins and squeezing out competition. "We contend that, even with its market domination, the company acted illegally to rig the marketplace to its benefit," said Steve Berman, lead attorney and managing partner at the firm. The action invites participation from anyone purchasing a fretted instrument between the dates of December 1st, 2005, and December 31st, 2007. Banjos, acoustic and electric guitars, violins and more are covered by the suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAS44 Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 some people are going to have a field day with this. It's wrong GC should be punished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Plains Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Only in America... That makes no sense. Look at every other on-line Gibson retailer and you'll see that their prices are the exact same as GC's. Gibson sets the prices - a LP Standard costs $x, a Flying V costs $y. GC is just doing what they're told. If they advertise for less, they get a slap on the wrist from Gibson. Speaking of price fixing - why doesn't anyone go after the oil industry? Gas stations have been doing this since the beginning of time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 If they advertise for less' date=' they get a slap on the wrist from Gibson.[/quote'] Yep, I got my Explorer (in natural) for a mere $935 brand new with case but it was a "phone offer" the lower price could not be published. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Don't know about "price fixing," per se....but, I do know that I can buy any number of Gibson guitars, at substantially lower prices, than either Guitar Center, or Musician's "fiend," quite often. In one particular model's case, 1000 dollars cheaper (normally...not a "special deal"), to be exact. So, there IS something going on, and has been, for a long time, seemingly. ;>b CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveinspain Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 So what does that mean for someone who bought guitars in 2007 from Guitar Center? Will we get money back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAS44 Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 In one particular model's case' date=' 1000 dollars cheaper, to be exact. [/quote']where. (only if it was new if not I get it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laney1566 Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 The problem starts at Gibson who my local shop can't get guitars from any more because they don't sell ENOUGH units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 where. (only if it was new if not I get it) Well, for me, E.M. Shorts (Wichita Band & Instrument Co), has been consistently less expensive, on new guitar purchases...especially Gibson. They just have fairer pricing...(I'm sure they pay the same as everyone else, for their "Cost" from Gibson...and they do "adjust" accordingly, when Gibson raises prices, so as not to risk losing their dealership)...but, they operate at a fairer (to the customer) profit margin, and therefore have a lot of repeat (and loyal) customers, because of it. They are a small "family owned" dealership, but do a good business, in all kinds of musical instruments. "E.M. Shorts," being the Guitar/Amp side of the business. Not ALL Gibson's will be 1000 dollars cheaper, there, however! And, their Gibson prices are not "advertised," on their web site. Most will be from, somewhat less expensive, to quite a bit less, model to model. Just depends on what you're after. They (usually) don't "bargain," as their prices are quite fair/reasonable, to begin with...and as I said, often quite a bit cheaper, than the Big Box Competition. They also have a good "Internet" business. An NO, I don't work for them, and never have! LOL But, I do buy, quite a bit, from them, when I can. Cheers, CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pohatu771 Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Don't know about "price fixing' date='" per se....but, I do know that I can buy any number of Gibson guitars, at substantially lower prices, than either Guitar Center, orMusician's "fiend," quite often. In one particular model's case, 1000 dollars cheaper (normally...not a "special deal"), to be exact. So, there IS something going on, and has been, for a long time, seemingly. ;>b CB[i'][/i] I can do much the same thing at the HOG. They were selling the Les Paul Studio Vintage Mahogany for $699, before Guitar Center decided to lower their price. If anyone wants the Lennon signature Les Paul Junior (with the Charlie Christian pickup), they're selling one for $3500. It's $5000 at Guitar Center. I'm not sure Guitar Center has actually done anything wrong, though. They sell Rickenbackers for less than MAP, which is why there is no advertised price on the website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 some people are going to have a field day with this. Then keep right on giving 'em your money..... It's wrong GC should be punished. THINK.... before you type. If the burden of proof lies with those bringing the lawsuit (it does) and they can demonstrate their assertions are correct (why would they commit $$$$ to it if they weren't certain?) and it turns out GC broke the law.... I say send 'em to the gallows. People commit crimes and the bleeding hearts tell us it's because of their misunderstood childhood. Corporations commit crimes and people NEVER take the time to understand it. They only want the corporation to 'pay up' if they don't like 'em for some reason. Right Tim? V V V V That makes no sense.Gibson sets the prices Then study it until it does make sense.... Gibson sets the Minimum Advertised Price' date=' after that it's up to the retailers to do what they want. If they advertise for less, they get a slap on the wrist from Gibson - or lose their franchise completely. What if they are conspiring to RAISE prices? Everybody makes a little more money and the unknowing consumer is being fleeced. Price fixing goes both ways. What about all these Guitar Center exclusives that nobody else can get? They can charge whatever they want for their exclusive until they no longer sell much. [i']THEN [/i]Gibson allows other retailers to get the product after the market is soft and saturated. Then the price comes down a little at GC.... Speaking of price fixing - why doesn't anyone go after the oil industry?Gas stations have been doing this since the beginning of time... Like millions on this continent' date=' the oil companies are your nemesis to, eh? My family has been in the oil biz since World War Two, even built and operated a chain of convenience stores for a few years before selling them back in the eighties. Their primary business was servicing oil and gas wells that were not producing for some reason - pull everything out, fix what broke, put everything back in. My folks never got a memo from anybody telling them what to charge for gas in their stores. They paid $1.XX a gallon for 50,000 gallons of gas (do YOU wanna write that check?) to be delivered to their pumps and they could sell it for whatever they wanted. A quick look around at the other gas sellers in the area would provide the needed hint. More often than not, it wasn't pretty. The gas was often a loss-leader to get people into the store so they would buy stuff with a profit attached. Are the "Big Oil" companies innocent? No. Are their profits out of whack? HELL NO! Look at their margins. 3 or 4% net profit. You can do better buying US Treasury bonds. No other industry is told by the gov't that they can't explore here, drill there, produce their product ANYWHERE without constant lawsuits (you're paying for them), and for the last 32 years there has not been a single refinery built in the United States. If there were ILLEGAL profits being made, it's going on under the noses of literally thousands of regulators and the entire public because those companies are publicly owned. If you have investments in a 401k, mutual fund, money market, etc, you probably own an oil company. How's it feel to be a rich oil company tycoon? :-) As others have stated, I have the ready access to a well-stocked independent dealer who beats Guitar Center in every way you can imagine. They do it every day with no hassles, no haggling, no bullsh!t and no drama. They are not part of a chain, every penny they make stays right here in town. Been telling you guys for years, [b']Fxxx Guitar Center[/b]. --> www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-0s3V4xAsA Too bad my last guitar purchase there was in 2003. After 15 years of abuse I finally had enough..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dem00n Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 So GC is closing down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 (Heavy sigh....) THINK.... before you type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 I'm no fan of ambulance-chasers, so let's see what comes of it. Those of you so quick to run to the defense of Guitar Center need to give some thought to how devastating their business model and practices have been to the guitar retailers across the nation. It's been good for some consumers who managed to get out of the store without getting fxcked, but the overall and ultimate result will be much less pleasant. They already spread 'misinformation' both by design and omission. They already get products other retailers are denied. (How does THAT help you?) What will buying a guitar be like when there's no competition left? Just look at many of the population centers in the US where GC is the only Gibson retailer in town. The only reason their prices are anything close to reasonable is because of internet competition. Remember, a substantial portion of internet sales now go into their corporate pockets anyway thru MF. What will happen when guitar shops become $$$$$ boutiques selling only high end guitars to big spenders because they are exclusive only to those stores (to keep them open) while everything else you buy must come from a warehouse via the internet? Here's a rhetorical question; How many of you will happily buy from Guitar Center but hate Wal-Mart? Just sayin'.... :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOL! Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 How many of you will happily buy from Guitar Center but hate Wal-Mart? Not me. I try to avoid the big box retailers whenever possible. Their business model is legal, but that does not make it ethical. It's undercutting the mom and pop places (often it means negative revenue) until they run them out of business and voila! they are the only game left in town. Thank god I live in a large, diverse city with a truckload of options. Service and knowledge at smaller stores tends to be a lot better anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hall Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 G.C. sure has a lot of various type Gibson cases advertised to sell. Golly, think they buy all those "extra" ones for poor Gibson owners who lost their cases, somewhere out there? Groper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAS44 Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Neo I meant that certain people will make a bug deal over this. also neo good point I rethought it and... well I take back my previous comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 This really shouldn't be so difficult. It's just supply and demand. Cut the demand and you'll see prices drop. I bought a Les Paul at GC back when they negotiated prices. But then they stopped doing this. So I started checking out other places. Between my ES-339 and Premium Plus LP I saved a total of $1,600 (yep, that's right, a whopping 1.6K!) by going to the HOG in Rochester instead of GC!! Gee, where do you think I'm doing my shopping now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canon_mutant Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Well' date=' for me, E.M. Shorts (Wichita Band & Instrument Co), has been consistently less expensive, on new guitarpurchases...especially Gibson. They just have fairer pricing...(I'm sure they pay the same as everyone else, for their "Cost" from Gibson...and they do "adjust" accordingly, when Gibson raises prices, so as not to risk losing their dealership)...but, they operate at a fairer (to the customer) profit margin, and therefore have a lot of repeat (and loyal) customers, because of it. They are a small "family owned" dealership, but do a good business, in all kinds of musical instruments. "E.M. Shorts," being the Guitar/Amp side of the business. Not ALL Gibson's will be 1000 dollars cheaper, there, however! And, their Gibson prices are not "advertised," on their web site. Most will be from, somewhat less expensive, to quite a bit less, model to model. Just depends on what you're after. They (usually) don't "bargain," as their prices are quite fair/reasonable, to begin with...and as I said, often quite a bit cheaper, than the Big Box Competition. They also have a good "Internet" business. An NO, I don't work for them, and never have! LOL But, I do buy, quite a bit, from them, when I can. Cheers, CB[/quote'] +1 If there's a case to be made, it's along the lines of GC and all of its sister sites do absolutely control "access" to certain models of guitars and amps. I would have gladly bought a couple of my toys at least from EM Shorts here had they been able to get them. Their pricing is very competitive on equipment they can get and they are, after all, my authorized Gibson service center. It naturally rubs them the wrong way when you show up for service and you didn't buy the guitar from them simply because you couldn't [not your fault!]. On the pricing side, though, if you deal with an actual GC store and have a relationship established there [know the right person], there are plenty of deals to be had. And I'm not affiliated with EM Shorts or GC either, BTW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChanMan Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 I got them to haggle even when the policy changed to "no haggling". I've bought at GC and gotten good deals, I'd shop there again. For me, I think I'll wait until after the lawsuit is settled before I hang the guilty.... be they lawyers or retailers. Oil companies not making profit? /chuckle "Exxon shatters profit records Oil giant makes corporate history by booking $11.7 billion in quarterly profit; earns $1,300 a second in 2007." http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/01/news/companies/exxon_earnings/ Big Oil Feasts on Economic Woes Record Profits from Big Five Oil Companies Feed on High Gas Prices http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2008/02/high_oil.html Exxon Roars To Record In Oil Slump Annual Profit Soars Despite Slip in Quarter While posting a $45.2 billion in annual profits, Exxon Mobil suffered a sharp drop in fourth-quarter profits from producing oil and gas. (By J. Scott Applewhite -- Associated Press) by Steven Mufson Washington Post Staff Writer Saturday, January 31, 2009; Page D01 Exxon Mobil finished a roller-coaster year in the oil markets with an all-time record $45.2 billion in profits, despite fourth-quarter earnings that were a third lower than the same period a year before... (see above about 2007 record profits) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/30/AR2009013003744.html Top Two most profitable companies, according to Fortune? 1. Exxon Mobile 2. Chevron http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2009/performers/companies/profits/ Yeah... they are pratically wasting away. I'm with Tim. Sue those guys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 all-time record $45.2 billion in profits Top Two most profitable companies' date=' according to Fortune? 1. Exxon Mobile 2. Chevron Yeah... they are pratically wasting away. I'm with Tim. Sue those guys... [/quote'] Drinking the Kool-Aid, perpetuating the myth.... That's not so large a profit when you consider they employ more people than any other company. And we're not talking Wal-Mart jobs either, we're talking technical and skilled positions in greater numbers than GM or Wal-Mart ever dreamed of (why do you guys hate Wal-Mart again?) and handsome salaries to boot. Health insurance that our gov't refers to as "Cadillac" policies, the ones they want to destroy.... When those oil companies were merging left and right in the eighties and nineties simply to survive, did you offer to pay extra for all that cheap gas you were burning? Now there's a near monopoly in a handful of companies and suddenly it's time to get worried. Look at their revenues, THEN look at their profit. Some quick math can yield a percentage. Of course, that won't help you hate them. Man up. Stop using petroleum products. THAT will show 'em you mean business..... (This means no paint on your Les Paul or insulation for the wiring and pickups.) Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Man up. Stop using petroleum products. THAT will show 'em you mean business..... :D The next beer is on me, Neo..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChanMan Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 <assorted gobshite> re·cord /v. r?'k?rd; n.' date=' adj. 'r?k?rd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [v. ri-kawrd; n., adj. rek-erd'] 18. the highest or best rate, amount, etc., ever attained, esp. in sports: to hold the record for home runs; to break the record in the high jump. prof·it /'pr?f?t/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [prof-it] –noun 1. Often, profits. a. pecuniary gain resulting from the employment of capital in any transaction. Compare gross profit, net profit. b. the ratio of such pecuniary gain to the amount of capital invested. c. returns, proceeds, or revenue, as from property or investments. 2. the monetary surplus left to a producer or employer after deducting wages, rent, cost of raw materials, etc.: The company works on a small margin of profit. 3. advantage; benefit; gain. ROA is not my responsibility. The money is coming in... Nice try at a dodge, though no real substance other than the typical schoolyard "debate" tactics. Not in a neanderthal mood tonight. You'll have to figure this one out on your own. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Dodge? No thanks. After the bailout they got all the money they'll ever see from me. GM too. I'll let you win one and we'll call it done. Cool? :- :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dem00n Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 READ ALL ABOUT IT, NEO BACK DOWN FROM A FIGHT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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