NeoConMan Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 Ah.... Here's where the 'reality' of California collides with the Real World..... :-/ I take comfort in the fact I'm not contributing to the most evil corporations that exist today' date=' [/quote']Yeah, like Microsoft? All that corporate monopoly stuff was back-burnered by the gov't because the consumer (YOU) doesn't care. Funny... :-) nor am I polluting. Yeah' date=' you are. Look around where you sit at this moment. Find something - anything - that was produced without petroleum. How did it get to the store you bought it from, or to your home? And what powers your computer? Until you're living on an unpowered island wearing hemp for clothes, you may wanna rethink that. Could you email via smoke signals? Nah, that would pollute.... :-) On that note' date=' Texaco took the patent for the electric car back in 2000...[/quote']So, that would be public record, eh? (Or rather Chevron did' date=' they bought Texaco in 2001 or something)[/quote']Well, that is public record at least.... Now you're venturing out into the uncharted Tin Foil Hat Territory. I heard lies perpetuated until they were regarded as the Gospel Truth regarding the company my own folks started decades ago. The Arab oil embargo of 1973 put a panic into people nobody remembers and the younger folks have no clue about. We were making money faster than we could deposit the checks due to the volume of work we were doing, and then word got out WE were secretly conspiring with the gov't or the Russians or the car-makers. Meanwhile, EPA regulations made it impossible to buy the new trucks we needed to do our work. Give me a f-ing break. Government regulations and environmentalism have forced oil companies into a corner for nearly 50 years and California has bravely led the lemming charge over the cliff. How much oil does California produce and refine every year? It's a pretty substantial number, but I bet you don't live in Bakersfield. Are there any well-head pumpjacks in your area? Turns out Panasonic was developing some really awesome batteries for electric cars that' date=' if they had continued to createmodify them, would actually outlast the car itself. Needless to say, big Chevron seeing its oil profits being threatened by this patent, did not like this one bit and actually sued Panasonic. There was a $30,000,000 lawsuit, and Panasonic handed over the patents for the batteries...[/quote'] What court was that in? What year did this happen? Goodbye clean energy... What is clean energy? Where do you get it? How much does it cost? Who's gonna pay for it? How reliable is it? Does it work at night? When there's no wind? What about all the hydro power that is dismantled every year? It was FREE. I'm afraid your claims, no matter how well-intended, cannot escape scrutiny when logic and facts are involved. My family has been in the Oil Biz since World War Two, and I left the farm to go into electrical power production. I'm in the largest nuke in the United States. You live blissfully within hours' drive of San Onofre and Diablo Canyon, two plants your state has fought daily for decades and driven your own electrical rates through the stratosphere despite the economic benefit of neutrons. Part of my salary (in Arizona) provides electricity for your state - at a premium price. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Californiaman Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 When will you people learn not to get into it with Neo? It was only a matter of time, hippie. Don't take it personal. Just take it. Take it. There ya' go. Medicine's good for ya'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 Tell me where I'm wrong.... Only clarifies my point. #-o/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 FWIW, Precious little electrical energy in this country is generated by oil. Hydro, Nuclear, are the big boys. Why? Petro fuels are too expensive. When you hear the 'green' power guys say that these alternatives save lots of oil, don't believe them. I am a believer in green power, but when they say it'll get us off our oil addiction... that dog won't hunt. To be sure, the ones against new forms of energy are just as mis-leading in their claims. If we want to wean ourselves off foreign oil.. Drill baby Drill!.. or better, stop driving so (#^&^ much. I'd drive an electric car today, but they are not available yet. Yes hybrids are available, but hybrids use gasoline above 40 mph. Most of my commute is above 40mph. A not so close neighbor who drives a similar path to work has a hybrid. She gets a whopping 36 mpg out of her Prius. My little Saturn SL-1 gets 37 - 39, depending on whether I need to run the A/C. For me, a hybrid don't pencil. 100% electrics are too scarce and too expensive for my money.... even at $5.00/ gallon gasoline. (I penciled it out and it don't pencil.) End of threadjackingrant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 Precious little electrical energy in this country is generated by oil. Hydro' date=' Nuclear, are the big boys. [/quote']Coal is 50% Nuke is 20% Natural gas and oil are almost 20% Hydro is a couple percent - for a couple months of the year. Wind and solar are about 1% and are NOT 24/7. Somebody tell me how to fix that. Funny how the Enviro-Nazis are coming around, realizing that maybe nuke power ain't so bad after all. When compared to the others.... And then to see how our gov't acts on energy policy, I can assure of one thing and one thing only. Your energy costs will rise dramatically from this point forward - no way around it. Depending on the regulatory and taxation path we follow, the cost will either be huge or fxcking HUGE!!! Your choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAS44 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Somebody tell me how to fix that. fairy dust and a secret magic chant. I'm working on the incantation in my basement workshop right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 Probably more effective than what our government is doing. It ain't Big Oil, Big Business or Big Money that's killing us. It's STUPID FxCKING POLITICIANS on both sides of the aisle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAS44 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Probably more effective than what our government is doing. [-o</ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfpup Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 It's STUPID FxCKING POLITICIANS on both sides of the aisle. Now that does deserve some applause. As for wind, I've always wondered... why are there no wind farms on the coasts where there is a relatively consistent (and powerful) wind pattern? Maybe because it might spoil the views of the wealthy homeowners? Don't know, Just askin'. Musical content... I read an interview with Michael Bloomfield once, and he described a jam session he did with Hendrix. He said he ripped off what he thought was a killer solo, and then he heard these wicked "sirocco winds" coming form Hendrix's rig. He turned around and saw that Jimi was just scraping his tremolo springs from the back of the Strat. Bloomfield said he was blown away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 Maybe because it might spoil the views of the wealthy homeowners? BINGO! Well, that and cost. Who's gonna buy 'em? Then who's gonna insure 'em against hurricane damage? Offshore is a great idea fought by everybody because they aren't 'pretty' on the horizon. That, and access to them is harder to control to avoid activists, saboteurs and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laney1566 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Now that does deserve some applause. As for wind' date=' I've always wondered... why are there no wind farms on the coasts where there is a relatively consistent (and powerful) wind pattern? Maybe because it might spoil the views of the wealthy homeowners? Don't know, Just askin'. Musical content... I read an interview with Michael Bloomfield once, and he described a jam session he did with Hendrix. He said he ripped off what he thought was a killer solo, and then he heard these wicked "sirocco winds" coming form Hendrix's rig. He turned around and saw that Jimi was just scraping his tremolo springs from the back of the Strat. Bloomfield said he was blown away. [/quote'] The enviromaniacs here in Portland have been offered wind farms, but the consistant wind blows in the Columbia River Gorge and they would have to look at them, so they don't want it. Meanwhile they dismantled the Nuke plant just up in Washington State. ](*,) And for all you bike riders. I have seen way too many Ghost bikes. It just isn't safe to ride in a big city. Bike paths you say.....Not feasable. Sure there are paths, but recreation is about the best your gonna get. This ain't China! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 When I ride (rarely) it's on the sidewalk if there is one. I'll pay the damned ticket - at least I'm alive to do it. Anybody who rides a bike in the street and considers it a 'vehicle' hasn't been smashed - yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Coal is 50%Nuke is 20% Natural gas and oil are almost 20% Hydro is a couple percent - for a couple months of the year. Wind and solar are about 1% and are NOT 24/7. Somebody tell me how to fix that. Funny how the Enviro-Nazis are coming around' date=' realizing that maybe nuke power ain't so bad after all. When compared to the others.... And then to see how our gov't acts on energy policy, I can assure of one thing and one thing only. Your energy costs will rise dramatically from this point forward - no way around it. Depending on the regulatory and taxation path we follow, the cost will either be huge or fxcking HUGE!!! Your choice.[/quote'] Thanks for the correct numbers NeoCon. I did not realize that coal was that high. Actually, I really shouldn't be surprised. Today, Saturday, is coal day on the Union Pacific line to Chicago's power facility. This is the day that seems dedicated to hauling coal into Chicago and the empties back out.. 100 car trains, after train after train, after train. Actually, since they've gone to aluminum cars, exclusively, I think the trains are 110 coal cars long. 2 engines up front, one bringing up the rear. Monday through Friday is everything else, containers, automobiles, commuting and the like. But Saturdays, it's all coal. Your figures lump natural with fuel oil. Do we import much Natural gas? Nuclear is the cheapest, cleanest, safest way to produce electricity. The problem? Not only are people up in arms over storing spent fuel deep within a mountain just because it's it their state, municipalities are up in arms if a container of the stuff happens to be on a truck or rail car, headed to said mountain, traverses through their community. Thus... Not only can't the nuclear plants ship the spent fuel through municipalities, they no longer have a place to bury it. The solution? Store it at the nuke plant. You know, just stack it against the wall inside the reactor building... now that make sense. Now the nuke plants are running out of places to store it. To top it all off, the energy companies have been mandated to produce 25% 'green' power (whatever that is). Instead of spending money on additional storage or future nuke plants they are forced to spend it on 'green' sources... whatever that is. Suffice it to say it includes wind and solar... which are wholely unreliable. Bottom line.. why are energy companies 'suddenly' focusing on green sources of energy instead of the most cost effective and cleanest? Politics. Why am I not surprised? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Now that does deserve some applause. As for wind' date=' I've always wondered... why are there no wind farms on the coasts where there is a relatively consistent (and powerful) wind pattern? Maybe because it might spoil the views of the wealthy homeowners? Don't know, Just askin'....[/quote'] http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/United_States_Wind_Resources_and_Transmission_Lines_map.jpg Note that the areas of "Oustanding" and "Superb" are off the coasts and the Great Lakes. Illinois, of late has been assaulted by more electric companies than I can shake a stick at, to put up wind turbines that, at best, run half the time. In an area only identified as 'Fair' for wind generation, why is this? Why? Distribution. Illinois has been blessed with industry over the last hundred years which has necessitated some of the best power distribution systems in the world. These systems are interconnected with the grid that feeds the east coast. Note also, in the linked map, that the "Outstanding" to "Superb" need no elaborate distribution network, as they are contiguous with the point of consumption; NYC, Boston.. the entire eastern seaboard, to be quite honest. Let's not forget the west coast. Some of the best is, as you alluded to, off the coast of Oregon. Oregon and Washington posture themselves at being on the 'cutting edge' of 'greenery'. But, it seems they don't want their back yards sullied with power generation turbines. Beaver Staters, It's time to put on your Birkenstocks and put up (wind turbines) or shut-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 Indeed, put up or shut up. Look, I'm for ALL of it. Windmills, solar, Lance Armstrong on an exercise bike. Just DO IT! Do it all. But do NOT expect the government (that means us) to pay for it. Get outta the fxcking way! Stop the Red Tape and speeches containing nothing but sweet lies and get out of the way! Texas Senator Phil Gramm said years ago something I believe to be The One Truth in America. There is no problem we face that is so big it can't be solved - if somebody can figure out how to make a buck on it. Put up whatever we can afford and get all the electricity we can from it. Do it through business and investment - not taxation - because profit motivates cost effectiveness. If the gov't funds anything, it fails - and then they throw more money at it until they're sure it's failed. You wanna see what your government is doing to poke you in the poop chute? This isn't political, this is the TRUTH. You're paying 1/10th of a cent per kilowatt/hour to fund Yucca Mountain - have been for years. That's the fuel repository in Nevada you speak of, and there are billions of dollars sitting around waiting to be pissed away on something else as soon as the gov't can get their hands on it after Yucca is pronounced dead. (Political note: If the party in power changes, Yucca will be resuscitated and will proceed - that's the reason for the rush.) Nevada Senator (and now Senate Majority Leader) Harry Reid has gladly accepted $600 million dollars a year to be spent in his state on Yucca Mountain - supercharging his economy and taking credit for it - until it got to be obvious that people are ready to start moving the damned fuel. Oh, wait, um..... So what does Reid do? Runs to our new President who couldn't fxcking care less about any logic, sanity or cost regarding energy. Who does he appoint as the head of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission? Here, I'll post a few snippets from his profile on the NRC website; http://www.nrc.gov/about-nrc/organization/commission/jaczko.html The Honorable Gregory B. Jaczko was designated Chairman of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission by President Barack Obama on May 13, 2009. This *** hole spoke at our facility last year, and I was in the room with true greatness. I have never personally witnessed a speech that sounded so impressive while actually saying nothing. This guy is a true politician, operating on a level few can comprehend. He began his Washington, D.C., career as a congressional science fellow in the office of U.S. Rep. Edward Markey. What a great endorsement that is... Do you have any idea how hostile to business Markey's state of Tax-a-two-sh!ts is? Have you ever seen the size of their state budgets? The tax rates for business and residents? The number of taxes they apply to everything you can imagine? This is the same state that brought us the Kennedy's, John 'Lurch' Kerry, Bawney Fwank, and other notables.... Dr. Jaczko has encouraged all stakeholders – including licensees, vendors, state and local governments, interest groups, and the general public – to participate in NRC policy-making efforts. In other words, the more people we allow into proceedings, the more sh!t we can start, the longer we can delay actually doing a damned thing and our jobs will be secure because we can tell everybody how busy we've been. Can you say Red Tape? This is EXACTLY what has killed the prospect of new plants in the Untied States. There hasn't been a new plant started up here since mine was in 1986, and there hasn't been a new oil refinery built since the seventies - look at the cost of gas and electricity over the last 20 years... It's gonna get worse folks. A lot worse. Dr. Jaczko has led efforts to strengthen security regulations for nuclear power plants – including requiring new nuclear power plants to be designed to withstand an aircraft crash. Sounds great, eh? THEY ARE ALREADY BUILT TO WITHSTAND AN AIRCRAFT CRASH!!!! And this *** hole is taking credit for it, even though they were built to that standard before he was born. Wait, it gets better. Dr. Jaczko's professional career has been devoted to science, and its use and impact in the public policy arena. In other words, he's a true bureaucrat and has no qualms about taxing and regulating businesses until they bleed. If you remember one thing from my rant, let it be this - businesses DO NOT pay taxes. It's passed directly to the consumer, every time, all the time. It costs YOU money, and lots of it. Immediately prior to assuming the post of Commissioner, Dr. Jaczko served as appropriations director for U.S. Sen. Harry Reid and also served as the Senator's science policy advisor. Ah-HA!!! There it is!!! Who does the Honorable Senator from Nevada, Harry Reid want at the head of the NRC? Somebody he can trust. Somebody he can depend on. Somebody he has paid hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years to buy his loyalty. And I keep hearing how evil the oil companies are. People are fxcking idiots in this country.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 If you're ever in the area, I can give you a limited tour of the facility I work at. You can see what you're paying for - all those casks of fuel sitting out there with birds sh!tting on them. And you're paying for this in addition to Yucca Mountain.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortcon Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 I'm new here, where do you live/work Neo? That was an incredibly well put-together argument. Also, I remember biking to school in Elementary School and Middle School, that's what all the cool kids did. It kills me how asinine people can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 Aw, shucks.... Thanks! :-) I live west of Phoenix, AZ. Welcome to the forum! (You missed the good stuff. The forum powers that be had to crack down on the crackpots so I mind my posts much closer now.) :D/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortcon Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Well thanks! I'm an enthusiast of brash-assholery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Well.... I always rode a bike to school in elementary and jr. high school. There are a few other "electrical" problems I haven't seen Neo mention. 1. Coal is pretty inexpensive and is used with less emission than in the old days, but the low sulphur coalfields near where I live have had distribution cut significantly by anti-rail folks. 2. Maybe a half dozen years ago or so Falicornia ran short on natural gas. So they were getting more from the Wyoming coalbed methane wells that the Greenies had fought because some of the water used in the process was "too clean" and was damaging fish and other critters in little prairie streams that were used to muddy water. The result of Falicornia refusing to use its own huge potential of resources was that my heating bill shot up in spite of the wells being 25 miles away so Falicornians could keep warm. 3. Where I live it's likely that both wind and solar could be marvelous. But... The greenies don't like power lines. So... Hmmmmm. Neither wind nor solar. However, a new power plant next to the Wyoming coal fields is going on line so they're jumping our electric rates by 26 percent. 4. Meanwhile, back at the desert island of Minnekasota, Ottertail Power just dropped construction of another coal-fired powerplant at Big Stone Lake because... greenies zapped ideas first of putting in power lines to carry the electricity and then they're scared of cap and trade. Sheesh. 5. Electric car lovers don't exist where the climate is cold. Batteries don't do well at -20 and could get you dead quickly when it's 70 or more miles between gas or charging stations in the daytime. If you're caught in a blizzard... you're dead. Besides, if the greenies stop power line construction, how do they figure to get electricity to battery-operated cars? And... where do they think the power comes from besides a socket in their living room? m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted October 4, 2009 Author Share Posted October 4, 2009 You're dead on Milod. I was trying to keep a narrow focus, otherwise I would have typed 100 times more stuff... Coal can be cleaned up, but the scrubbers and precipitators are expensive to install and maintain. All the worst coal plants are still grandfathered and exempted, so they avoid much of the burden. Any wonder the Greenies fight new coal plants? They've been lied to about the old ones for 30 years. The latest wrinkle on all of this? No matter how clean the stacks from a coal plant now, they emit CO2. Ah, yes.... The dreaded Greenhouse Gas issue. Doesn't matter HOW clean you make it. The CO2 that is always gonna be present in huge volumes when you burn petroleum ain't going away. And all these protesters? What do you think comes out the tailpipe of their precious hybrid sh!t-box cars? CO2. Same as my 12 mpg 4wd Suburban. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 Neo... You're on the money from where I see it. Nuclear is likely the least polluting we'll see for a long time other than hydroelectric. But having lived at a dam site, I've learned that politics and greenies even get involved there so there are horrid problems making things really work. My favorite is how one Missouri dam got shut down, then spashed like crazy, then cut output again so some sandbars downstream could get washed and then dried for the piping plover. Meanwhile I showed some of the wheels involved a science mag piece on how the plovers love shopping mall gravel roofs. Why spend huge amounts of money and screw up the river system for less than a dozen plover pairs when the birds are proven to like shopping mall roofs for nesting? Never got an answer. Another hydro problem seldom mentioned is siltation. I did a set of stories on a town that hadda move because siltation pushed up the water table. Another nearby town thought they were going to be an inland lake resort community and built a big marina. that was some 50 years ago. Today there's not enough water most of the time to float a kayak. So it's not like I'm anti-environment. But I've seen the greenies destroy too much simply because they could - and because they could, they got more donations to go further. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted October 4, 2009 Author Share Posted October 4, 2009 APS, or Arizona Public Service, just tore out two 100 year old dams on Fossil Creek in the AZ high country. They were the first hydro dams here, sent the first electrons buzzing into Phoenix. Roundly applauded from everybody, good Corporate Stewardship of the land, etc... They produced next to nothing in the grand scheme of things but it was FREE. The cost is gonna be the wake-up call for energy. Nobody wants wires. Okay. Generate electricity where you live. Nobody wants a nuke or coal plant, solar or even windmills near their home. Okay. Then put in clean natural gas-fired turbines. Wait, that produces CO2 (can you hear them saying the sky is falling?) and will kill us all like the dinosaurs. Well, then what do you want to push those handy little electrons to the light switch in YOUR home? Keep electing people who keep doing nothing but lie to you when if actually do understand things. Don't listen to the corporations who can show a way to make electricity and a profit.... And don't lump the utilities in with corporations, they can't lose money because the gov't won't let 'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Lessee? Cain't use Hydro, Nuke, Gas, Coal, Wind, Solar? Even then you cain' t transmit it 'cause the wise are ugly? Hmm... I suspect the greenies won't be happy until we all are living in TeePees and burning Bison dung... Wait... No... can't burn the dung... CO2, youknow..? Hmm.. Yup, the bison produced the leather to cover the teepee, not to mention the poles from trees to hold the hide up??? . What is their carbon foot print???? OMG!! CH4!!! Methane! Oh the humanity. We're all gonna die, the sky is falling! Maybe you had a good idea with that Lance Armstrong thing... as long as he don't fart... we're gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 Just one of many little 'victories for the Greenies. Celebrate!!! PacifiCorp To Remove Four Electricity-Generating Dams From River October 2, 2009 From The Energy Daily - PacifiCorp has reached a tentative deal with the Interior Department, California and Oregon to tear down four electricity-generating dams on the Klamath River to restore once vibrant salmon runs and improve downstream water quality. The proposed settlement limits the costs to be borne by PacifiCorp’s ratepayers and requires no federal money to implement, though California could be required to contribute funds. The Interior department also would have to undertake an extensive review of the dam removal project and gain passage of federal legislation to implement a massive restoration plan for the Klamath River basin, according to The Energy Daily. The agreement aims to equitably conclude years of efforts by PacifiCorp and a diverse array of federal, state, tribal and local government stakeholders to remove the lower four dams on the Klamath River, which are part of PacifiCorp’s 169-megawatt Klamath River hydroelectric system. :- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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