Spot Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 ...explain Gibson's random use of Grover Machine heads? Why to certain, completely random models and years have Grovers, when the majority have Kluson style? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichCI Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 No idea, but it does seem random at times. My SG Junior came with Grovers; there were two of them at the shop and the other one came with Klusons and the only other difference is that mine is the typical stained red finish while the other was ebony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spot Posted April 9, 2008 Author Share Posted April 9, 2008 ...it's strange, huh??? Maybe they just ran out of Klusons on certain production days and had to use Grovers as back ups?????? Could it be so simple as this??? What I find even stranger is why Gibson don't use Grovers on more models as customers change the factory installed Klusons to Grovers all the time???? May be they are a lot cheaper and save money on a per unit LP... :) Give the people what they want I say!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spot Posted April 9, 2008 Author Share Posted April 9, 2008 No idea' date=' but it does seem random at times. My SG Junior came with Grovers; there were two of them at the shop and the other one came with Klusons and the only other difference is that mine is the typical stained red finish while the other was ebony.[/quote'] If anyone's interested these are the replacement tuners Gibson list on the official website... MODEL NO. DESCRIPTION PMMH-010 Vintage Nickel Machine Heads w/ Pearloid Buttons PMMH-015 Modern Nickel Machine Heads w/ Metal Buttons PMMH-020 Vintage Gold Machine Heads w/ Pearloid Buttons PMMH-025 Modern Gold Machine Heads w/ Metal Buttons PMMH-030 Machine Head Black Grover http://www.gibson.com/Products/Accessories/Gear/Accessories/Replacement%20Parts/Machine%20Heads/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lair22 Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 My 2001 LP Plus and my SG '90 both came w/ Grovers. I think it was seen as an upgrade for a "special" model in each case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergod Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 pardon the stupid question but which ones are better? and klusons are the ones that have gibson deluxe written on the back? i have seen lost of epis with grovers, i had an epi g400 faded that came with grovers, an epi lp standard that came with grovers too... and my gibson lp standard faded came with klusons (i think) why if grovers are more expensive and better, gibson doesnt use them but epi does? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spot Posted April 9, 2008 Author Share Posted April 9, 2008 pardon the stupid question but which ones are better? and klusons are the ones that have gibson deluxe written on the back? i have seen lost of epis with grovers' date=' i had an epi g400 faded that came with grovers, an epi lp standard that came with grovers too... and my gibson lp standard faded came with klusons (i think) why if grovers are more expensive and better, gibson doesnt use them but epi does?[/quote'] Yes, ThunderGod, Kluson style tuners on Gibson have Gibson Deluxe written on them. I'm no expert but I've always been told and assumed that Grovers are better at keeping a guitar in tune. Can anyone confirm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibson CS Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 Id prefer the chrome ones to the plastic ones that came with it, but I want mine to be as original as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLiveSoundGuy Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 Well my thoughts on this if anyone were to care is this: Kluson (Gibson Deluxe) Tuners are quite functional. I have never had any tuning issues with them. I also find them to be somewhat more fragile, but they do have a slightly classier "look" to them. The Grovers, I tend to equate to a Sure SM-58 mic. You can use the damn things as a hammer. You can beat the hell out of them and they take it, and still do exactly what they were designed to do. They're tanks. The gold Grovers also do that, but give back that "touch of class" look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergod Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 i'm with you thelivesoundguy... i like the classic look of the klusons and never have had any tunning issues with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Plains Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 Maybe Gibson buys from the cheapest supplier? If the Klusons were cheaper that year, they bought Klusons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lair22 Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 just guessing, but maybe the Klusons are the ones that were avail in teh early years and so they are seen as original or vintage. I think I had Grovers as far back as my '76 L6S but they don't have the pedigree of the Klusons (?). Don't know that as a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 Both are fine tuners, and there is nothing wrong with either. Neither one is better than the other at keeping a guitar in tune, but you will never convince some people of that. The fact that it is physically impossible for the tuning shaft on either to 'slip' any more than the few thou in the backlash (which you shouldn't have if you tune up to pitch anyway), can't be explained to a lot of people. Do you think a salesperson in a store is going to tell you the problems are not in the tuners, but the nut, or in your mind, rather than sell you a $100 set of tuners? Higher ratio gearing can allow for more precise tuning, and locking tuners on non tremolo guitars do nothing more than make string changes faster, but neither can guarantee to fix tuning problems, unless you are not stringing properly. Some people do not like the plastic buttons, and that is fine; others prefer one brand over another and that is fine. Some think one style looks better than the other and that is fine too, but a lot of people are so insecure about these things that they find all sorts of excuses to change the tuners. Gibson has used Grovers, Klusons and Schallers through the years, most of the Grovers had kidney bean buttons and the schallers and Klusons typically had the keystone buttons in either metal or plastic, so both styles are historically appropriate, although some are more historically asociated with certain models. The modern Klusons are made in Korea, and the Kluson style tuners that Gibson currently uses are Gotoh from Japan and considered to be better than the current Kluson brand tuners. So in the end it is mainly aesthetics and personal preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibis Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 Were new Klusons 'Back in the day' always that snot green colour we're given now? Or were they yellow/amber that eventually faded to green? I like the look of Klusons but don't really like the colour. I have a set on a Hamer Vector Korina that are more amber than green and they look great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Martin Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 Were new Klusons 'Back in the day' always that snot green colour we're given now? Or were they yellow/amber that eventually faded to green? I loke the look of Klusons but don't really like the colour. The green plastic is fugly, but the tuner itself is classy. It's fuglassy! I'm drunk. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted April 13, 2008 Share Posted April 13, 2008 GOOD POST!!! I'll just add a few notes if you don't mind. Both are fine tuners' date=' and there is nothing wrong with either. Neither one is better than the other at keeping a guitar in tune, but you will never convince some people of that. [/quote'] Grovers are regarded as an upgrade by Gibson, I agree. There's alot more metal in them, I think they are more durable. Downside, they are heavier. Consider that if you have a neck-heavy guitar like an SG or a double-neck. It will be worse. Higher ratio gearing can allow for more precise tuning' date=' and locking tuners on non tremolo guitars do nothing more than make string changes faster, but neither can guarantee to fix tuning problems, unless you are not stringing properly. [/quote'] The ratio is the key, most new tuners are 14:1. Some people do not like the plastic buttons' date=' and that is fine; others prefer one brand over another and that is fine. Some think one style looks better than the other and that is fine too, but a lot of people are so insecure about these things that they find all sorts of excuses to change the tuners. [/quote'] I think the plastic ones look cheesy, just my opinion. That's the biggest reason I changed them over the years on my Les Pauls. Gibson has used Grovers' date=' Klusons and Schallers through the years, most of the Grovers had kidney bean buttons and the schallers and Klusons typically had the keystone buttons in either metal or plastic, so both styles are historically appropriate, although some are more historically asociated with certain models. The modern Klusons are made in Korea, and the Kluson style tuners that Gibson currently uses are Gotoh from Japan and considered to be better than the current Kluson brand tuners. [/quote'] Tuners that say Gibson Deluxe on them may very well be made by Grover, check out their website. I talked to their Customer Service guy about pulling the Kluson style tuners off my Custom Shop double neck. The look just like the old Klusons - that were junk in my opinion. I was gonna replace them with some GOOD Grover Rotomatics and mini-rotomatics. Turns out they only LOOK like the old Klusons and they already have the 14:1 ratio. The mini-rotos have 18:1 for the twelve string neck, I still considered the swap but the Grover guy talked me out of it. Tuning stability is great, no issues, and 18 heavier Grovers hanging WAY out there would not help the double neck dive. So in the end it is mainly aesthetics and personal preference. After running around in circles for a couple years, I arrived at the same conclusion - on American guitars. Epiphones still get sh!t tuners, and nothing will interchange with them. Gotta drill the headstock, all kinds of hassles. I've done it, it SUCKS! Neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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