suburude63 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 There are both civil (fines) and criminal penalties (jail) possible' date=' depending on who did what. It would also be illegal to possess any material which has been obtained illegally, but the possibility of anyone ever attempting to enforce it on an individual guitar-owner is highly doubtful. [/quote'] Possesion is 9/10s of the law Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hall Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 There are both civil (fines) and criminal penalties (jail) possible' date=' depending on who did what. It would also be illegal to possess any material which has been obtained illegally, but the possibility of anyone ever attempting to enforce it on an individual guitar-owner is highly doubtful. [/quote'] I know all that. It's your last clause that is the applicable info I mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J185-4Me Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 My vote is for John Lithgow: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modoc_333 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 great pictures there... that 3rd picture looks PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefleppard Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Gee Whiz. I'm sure glad that the Feebies have done such a great job that the terrorists, spies and criminals are all arrested and now they can go after the illegal wood bootleggers. Last I heard, there was more rainforest wood being burned, than harvested in Brazil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackholexxxx Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I don't think the US Dept of Fish and Wildlife deals with terrorists and spies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbg63 Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Now all you guitar pickers just hold it right there..... We're lokking for illegal wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
57 Stratman Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Well, I understand that there are people, who in the name of the all mighty dollar, are willing to rape the planet of every last resource that is worth anything, but I find it hard to believe that Henry is one of them people. Now Bob Taylor on the other hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Sorry Jackhole, I didn't see the post someone made suggesting it was a different branch of Federal Enforcement involved. Still, I'd rather my tax dollars go towards protecting US Fish and Wildlife, then - instead of dead wood from MADAGASCAR imho. I'm not sure which branch or tree in the forest of US bureaucracy should enforce this but I would think the most effective enforcement - like with ivory -is not to look for guitars but poachers. And no "catch and release" for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tw2_usa Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 "As temperatures rise, drought, crop failure and deforestation have combined to create a crisis of malnutrition. Madagascar's rainfall has decreased 10% in the last 50 years, its temp has risen 10% and it has lost 90% of its forests. 1.5 million people have inadequate food because of prolonged drought -- 250,000 of them children younger than 5." I know we love guitars but these laws do (hopefully) serve a purpose... Here's the whole article: http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-fg-climate-madagascar21-2009nov21,0,4924478,full.story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 I went to the Healdsburg Guitar festival in Santa Rosa this past summer.........there were so many Brazillian Rosewood Guitars, that you would not even believe it was endangered.....but as long as someone with $10,000 can keep the demand up, who cares really???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 I'm hoping we can someday find a sustainable, plentiful wood that decent guitars can be made from. I've confessed to loving my Seagull and it's made of cedar and cherry. I think they've made them from Birch as well. I can't honestly say I know what the board is; some breed of rosewood I suppose but no idea if it's tree-hugger wood or something easily and legally bought. I recognize that the more exotic and/or taboo wood can be more desirable but I wonder how much of that is snob appeal and how much translates into better quality when the rubber meets the road. Why do we never hear anything about reforestation of rosewood? If it happens, it's sure not common knowledge. A few years back Gibson had some Smartwood guitars. I don't hear much about that anymore. Dealing in highly desirable guitar wood nowadays reminds me a lot of when I owned an SKS rifle. There are so many little mini-laws as to what modifications can or can't be done to them and rather than spend several hours a week keeping up on the ATF rulings, I just got rid of it. If I had a guitar factory I'd rather err on the side of caution and make guitars out of what's plentiful rather than always looking over my shoulder. Not saying that's what's happening here, just in general...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfden1 Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 I'm hoping we can someday find a sustainable' date=' plentiful wood that decent guitars can be made from. I've confessed to loving my Seagull and it's made of cedar and cherry. I think they've made them from Birch as well. I can't honestly say I know what the board is; some breed of rosewood I suppose but no idea if it's tree-hugger wood or something easily and legally bought. And what might "tree-hugger wood" be? I recognize that the more exotic and/or taboo wood can be more desirable but I wonder how much of that is snob appeal and how much translates into better quality when the rubber meets the road. How is "better quality" defined? As I think you know, in the world of tonewoods, quality may be defined as much by marketing as anything else. For many it seems to be perfectly straight, tight grain, no streaking, etc. Others seem to confuse quality with nothing more than cosmetic bling. Talk to someone like Lance Krangenbrink, John Arnold, Tim McKnight or Dana Bougouis, and it's all about the stiffness and tone, especially when it comes to tops. All of which is to say that even when it comes to something that you would think might be quantifiable (e.g. quality), one man's ceiling is another man's floor. Throw human greed and ego into the equation, and you have a mish mash of emotions that may have very little to do with actual quality. Both rarity and myth seem to equate to desirability for some people. There are B/G players who will pay huge amounts of money for an authentic tortis shell pick, despite that fact that the particular animal from which the material comes is highly endangered and facing extinction. Personally, I refuse to buy anything that's on an endangered list, even if it was obtained legally. The right piece of paper can be easy to obtain in many parts of the world simply by paying the right person to give it to you, and in many places that's exactly how species become so devastated. By participating as a buyer, I believe we become complicit in that. Why do we never hear anything about reforestation of rosewood? If it happens, it's sure not common knowledge. That's because there are very few reforestation projects out there for endangered tropical woods, and what is there gets precious little attention. These projects are just not large or effective enough to garner much publicity. And too, the one's I've been able to find out anything about seem to be either in the very early stages, or somewhat on an experiemental footing. Some "tree hugger" organizations are working on projects in places like Brazil, Costa Rica and Panama, but funding tends to be very limited and success dependent on Government cooperation and protection, things that are often not readily forthcoming when corruption pays better. There are some international organizations working on a project in Madagascar, but that one is currently threatened by a recent government coup in which the new guys in power don't give a hoot about reforestation. Do a google search on the subject, you'll find out quite a lot of interesting stuff. A few years back Gibson had some Smartwood guitars. I don't hear much about that anymore. Dealing in highly desirable guitar wood nowadays reminds me a lot of when I owned an SKS rifle. There are so many little mini-laws as to what modifications can or can't be done to them and rather than spend several hours a week keeping up on the ATF rulings, I just got rid of it. If I had a guitar factory I'd rather err on the side of caution and make guitars out of what's plentiful rather than always looking over my shoulder. . I agree with that, but unfortunately people don't pay the big bucks for what's plentiful (whatever that may be as far as making great guitars is concerned), they pay for what's rare and exotic and there will always be some greed head there to sell it to them. Whoever has the last piece of madrose on the planet stands to make a fortune. And yes, you could call me a tree-hugger, whatever that is. I grew up not all that far from you KSD, in northern NY State. Catskills mainly, but the Adirondacks for quite a few years. My dad was a hunter and fisherman and so I grew up around guns and in the woods. He was also proud to call himself a conservationist, I guess the precursor to today's environmentalists. But in his world, if you didn't protect it, it wasn't going to be around too long, and he loved the wild world too much to passively stand by and let it go. We didn't get along all that well, but I've always been proud of him for standing up for his principles and living them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modac Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Gibson has always used alternative tonewoods to good effect. Who makes more maple guitars than Gibson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertjohn Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Gibson has always used alternative tonewoods to good effect. Who makes more maple guitars than Gibson? So we will all have to trade in our RW gits for spruce and maple guitars. Or cedar, cherry etc. Not so bad is it? They might not smell as good but they'd look bloody lovely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgwoods Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 You'd think they were running a drug operation and holding hostages- storming the headquarters? over wood and records? Folks the police state is coming fast and these folks are way out of control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 You'd think they were running a drug operation and holding hostages- storming the headquarters? over wood and records? Folks the police state is coming fast and these folks are way out of control. I agree...let's face it... a tree is virtually worthless 'til you cut it down and make something out of it! Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jannusguy Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I agree...let's face it... a tree is virtually worthless 'til you cut it down and make something out of it! Bob there is the oxygen generating capability that gives it some value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonCarlos Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I agree...let's face it... a tree is virtually worthless 'til you cut it down and make something out of it! Bob You are joking, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Illegal wood??????? I thought someone in the front office had used a false name to get Viagra over the internet........????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 You'd think they were running a drug operation and holding hostages- storming the headquarters? over wood and records? Folks the police state is coming fast and these folks are way out of control. Let's not get carried away. Fish and Wildlife agents came, served a warrant, and spent a few hours looking around. There were press reports that some wood and records were seized, but that has not been confirmed by either F&W or Gibson. The agents were accompanied by local police, because that's how these things are done: local police, understandably, want to be involved when federal agents are mucking about in their jurisdiction (partly in order to keep an eye on them). This might qualify as a "raid", but "storming the headquarters"? -- Bob R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgwoods Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 "Stormed the headquarters" those exact words were used in the news report listed in the OP. "Raided" was used as well by the newspapers. It may well be that the sensationalist press is to blame, reporting on what should take place as a routine regulatory compliance investigation and blowing it all out of proportion. I guess there were no fires or highway crashes that day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgwoods Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/13/madagascars-wood-exports-stir-debate/ Gibsons problem. Martins and all the others, stems from political issues half a world away. The ethics of doing what is legal can be debated, but I bet Gibson and everyone else thought this was OK and it was legal when they did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajsc Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 "Stormed the headquarters" those exact words were used in the news report listed in the OP. "Raided" was used as well by the newspapers. It may well be that the sensationalist press is to blame' date=' reporting on what should take place as a routine regulatory compliance investigation and blowing it all out of proportion. I guess there were no fires or highway crashes that day?[/quote'] News, & newspapers like to use words liked "stormed", & "raided" They "think" this will sell more papers!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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