blueharriss Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 This is a guitar that my Grandmother bought for my Grandfather. Neither are alive so there aren't many details other than he played the instrument in a hawaiian and jazz band, we think it was bought new. The label is peeled off with only a few pieces left and there is no other serial number on it. There is a spot of worn finish on the kneck where it sat on a stand. I also just noticed the bridge has slipped out of place due to loose strings. Tuning keys are Klusson Deluxe, pick guard is tortoise shell. It appears to be in great condition. Any insight would be wonderful, I am especially interestd in its model (L5 or L7) its possible production date, and its value for insurance. I don't plan on selling it but want to make sure its insured. And finally any advice on properly storing it would be appreciated. Thanks in advance for all the help! The pics are on photobucket at http://s909.photobucket.com/albums/ac291/blueharriss/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I'll start things rolling with what I see. This guitar looks to be late 30s or even wartime. Gibson made some black 16 inch wide arch tops called Specials. I have seem some with a variety of features, don't recall one with these neck inlays. Most Gibson arch tops had gone to the 17 inch body by the late 30s. There was a round label inside? I don't know if the Specials had a label. Don't date anything by the tuning machines. They are latter replacements from the late 40s at the earliest and this guitar pre-dates that. Tuner replacement is common. There are more knowledgeable arch top folks on here hopefully they will comment. Great looking guitar! I really like the black finish. I can't estimate value. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indigogirl17 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 This is a guitar that my Grandmother bought for my Grandfather. Neither are alive so there aren't many details other than he played the instrument in a hawaiian and jazz band' date=' we think it was bought new. The label is peeled off with only a few pieces left and there is no other serial number on it. There is a spot of worn finish on the kneck where it sat on a stand. I also just noticed the bridge has slipped out of place due to loose strings. Tuning keys are Klusson Deluxe, pick guard is tortoise shell. It appears to be in great condition. Any insight would be wonderful, I am especially interestd in its model (L5 or L7) its possible production date, and its value for insurance. I don't plan on selling it but want to make sure its insured. And finally any advice on properly storing it would be appreciated. Thanks in advance for all the help! The pics are on photobucket at http://s909.photobucket.com/albums/ac291/blueharriss/[/quote'] It's a privilege just to see a picture of this--beautiful guitar in nice condition for its age. Thank you. You may want to send a picture to Gibson..they were of help to me in properly identifying a guitar I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR56 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 This is one of those puzzlers, and since we have little solid information to go on (label, serial #, history in terms of possible modifications, etc), it's a bit of a guessing game. We don't even know for certain whether this neck and body started out together. I have several books on guitars and Gibsons in particular, and the information concerning the evolution of the various acoustic archtop models in the 1930's is incomplete and pretty difficult to piece together. [For example, in Tom Wheeler's seminal book "American Guitars", he writes about the origin of the L-10... "in mid 1931, Gibson introduced the black, $175 L-10 to fill the gap (between the $100 L-4 and the $275 L-5). The L-10 was spiffed up considerably in 1934...". He doesn't even say what features the model had from 1931-33.] I'm not an expert, especially on pre-WWII acoustic archtops, but it appeared to me pretty quickly that this instrument has had at least some modification. Some thing just don't seem to "fit" together. As Terry suggested, I don't think the fingerboard inlays (these are referred to as "double parallelograms") were featured on a 16" guitar in the 30's. I believe they first appeared on the 1935 L-12 model, which had a 17" body and much fancier features overall. Even the L-10, L-7, and L-4 had fancier features. Because this guitar has no headstock inlay; no headstock binding; and no pickguard binding, it would seem to me to be a lower-end model with a replaced fingerboard and tailpiece (I believe this particular style appeared somewhere in the 1940's). I like the black finish also. It could be original, but I guess we don't know for sure. The bridge being out of place is a non-issue, of course. The strings need only to be loosened and the bridge moved back into position. It may need new strings anyway...? This is certainly not an L-5, and without any headstock inlay, probably not even a medium-grade model (L-7, L-10, etc). Maybe the "special" line that Terry mentioned is a possibility, I don't know. It could also be a modified budget model, I suppose. It's not going to be highly valuable, unless there's something I'm missing here. Probably $1500 or so, just as an off the cuff guess. If you want to have it insured, I would recommend taking it to a reputable shop for a full, hands-on appraisal. Another possibility would be to contact one of the top dealers/experts and ask them if you can send some high (higher) quality photos via the mail or e-mail for analysis. Gruhn Guitars; Archtop.com; Mandolin Brothers; there are knowledgeable dealers all over the country. In terms of storage, it deserves a good quality hardshell case. The string tension should be relaxed somewhat if it's going to remain unplayed for long periods. It should be stored in a place where the temperature range is equal to what's comfortable for humans. As long as there are no extremes, or sudden changes, it should be fine. Ideally, there should be at least a fair amount of humidity present in the environment also. Are you going to play it? If so, spend a little money and have it properly cleaned and oiled (the fretboard) and set up. Regardless of anything negative I've said here in terms of it not being all original or high end, that is really a VERY cool looking old Gibson, and you should be proud to have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 The war time specials are mentioned in Gruhn's book. I will reference when I get home. I'm sure that is what this guitar is. I just didn't remember one with double parallegram inlays, but I don't typically keep pictures of these. There is a vintage sight that had some information on these, but I can't seem to find it anymore. I don't remember if they have maple or mahogany back and sides, carved, flat, pressed backs. A few months back there were several on ebay and they were very nice condition. None of them brought much money and I had no money to bid or I would have had one. Guitars sales are so stagnant. I think you are in the ball park on your estimate. I have heard they can be good guitars. I will try to find out more on the Specials. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueharriss Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 Thanks guys, this guitar is beautiful. I played for about 15 years in Jr. High - College and am hoping to pick it back up (I'm 35 now so the blisters are way gone). My Grandfather was a clockmaker, consumate tinkerer, and awesome guitarist. This is the first time I have really looked at this instrument and I believe his tinkering lives. I just removed the truss rod cover, upon close observation its hand cut from very thin steel. My guess is that even in lean times Gibson would have this stamped or machined, not cut with snips! The back of this emblem even has "ters and Factory Supplies" on it so my Pop likely snipped up some kind of advertising sign. No idea if the tailpiece is original but it is not in its original position, there is a screw hole 1/8th of an inch off from one of the existing holes. The label is oval and I can see under a torn piece what looks like blue ink and the number 5. The bottom of the label says Gibson Mandolin-Guitar company. The top has style then a tear and above the patent dates of '98 and March 1906. I can't tell if the finish is original, I don't see any sign of it not being original but thats beyond my skill. Same for the neck, I don't see any obvious areas that a layman could see as indicating a replacement. The truss rod has a nut on it which also has black paint on the threads, but maybe thats normal since the neck was likely finished while installed. And finally, it is a 16" model. Thats about all I can find, my Grandpa was notorious for piecing clocks together it looks like he may have done the same with this beauty. On another note (maybe better suited for the Les Paul forum), I also received a 77 Les Paul Artisan. This one has been looked at by a reputable dealer and it is all matching. Some of the gold plate is worn off all three pickups and two small inlay pieces have fallen out but it is otherwise in great shape. Thanks for all the insight so far, maybe my additional info. will help answer some questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Having a label is what throws me. I just don't think the "Specials" had a label, but I could be wrong. The only other 16 built in the late 30s would be the L4 which would have a label, but they didn't have these inlays and weren't black. Gibson is well known for doing things out of the ordinary. Send a picture to archtops.com they will know what model it its. The tailpiece looks correct. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR56 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Terry, I can't find anything about the Specials in any of my books (including those by Gruhn). Please tell me where you're getting your information on those, and share some of that information here. As I said, I don't think the tailpiece or the fretboard inlay would have been available on a 16" guitar from the 30's. If someone has examples of a model or models that would have featured that tailpiece or those inlays, please tell me what model. In terms of the fretboard inlays possibly being added later, it doesn't mean the whole neck would have to have been replaced. Just the fretboard could have been replaced. The existence of extra holes suggests even more strongly to me that the tailpiece is not original. As I said, this is still a cool guitar, even if it has been modified. Terry, an L-4 would (I think) have had inlays on (and binding around) the headstock; and binding around the pickguard. I seriously doubt that the Gibson company can offer any definitive info from looking at these photos. It would take a real expert, either with better photos or having the guitar in hand, to come up with a very solid idea, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Here is a link to acousticmusci.org They have a museum section and this is the information on the special I was referring to. In Guhns first field guide he has a short paragraph about the specials, but doesn't say much. http://www.acousticmusic.org/Gibson-special-4-1939-p-266.html I have seen these inlays on pre-war arch tops, the first time I saw it I thought it was wrong, but have since seen it on others. I have seen several these on ebay, but typically have dot inlays, since they were a bargain priced guitar. I doubt the specials would have a label. I don't know, but Gibson did so many, many odd things through the years that nothing surprises me. Odd ball Gibsons show up all the time that defy current knowledge. I've got three odd ball flat tops. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR56 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Here is a link to acousticmusci.org They have a museum section and this is the information on the special I was referring to. In Gruhns first field guide he has a short paragraph about the specials' date=' but doesn't say much.[/quote'] I think I had heard about those some years ago, but they sure don't get mentioned very often. As far as the Gruhn field guide, I looked but didn't find anything. I'll have to take another look, unless you can offer a page number. I have seen these inlays on pre-war arch tops, the first time I saw it I thought it was wrong, but have since seen it on others. I'm not saying you're wrong, but you must admit that's a bit vague. As I said above, according to the Wheeler book, the double parallelograms first appeared on the L-12 in 1935, but that was a 17" guitar with fairly deluxe appointments. We're talking about a 16" guitar here with no head inlay or binding. As you say, they could be original on this guitar if it was an "odd ball" guitar, but I think it's just as likely if not moreso that the board was replaced. An interesting mystery guitar for sure. Blueharriss, if you get this mystery solved, please let us know! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zizala Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Very interesting guitar! And confusing too. It has features that combine the look of a few different eras. Heres are my observations from photos and whats been posted so far. The body is a typical 16" pre-war. That nice old pickguard is pre-1933. The bridge is a pre-war style. It once had a label. There were early black L-10s with bound dot fretboards, simple non-bound headstocks with inlayed logos from circa 1928-1932. L-10s from 1932-34 had fancy inlays on the headstock from 1932-34. L-10s had oval labels with serial numbers Black Special #4's were budget 16" archtops offered circa 1936-1940. They had silk screened logos on the headstocks, no fretboard binding and dot inlays. These did not have labels with serial numners...just factory order numbers. The tailpiece is post-46. A fretboard with these double parallelogram inlays would not have appeared on a 16" Gibson acoustic archtop until the post-war versions of the L-4 appeared. I'm assuming this black finish is original....if its not than things get harder to figure.... My conclusion without having the guitar in hand and inspecting it closely is that this is a pre-33 L-10 that was refurbished by Gibson in the late 40's or early 50s. New post-war L-4 type fretboard with parallelogram inlays and current tailpiece were added and Kluson strip tuners as well. But the headstock was left unbound....the neck is original or so the small heel tells me and they left that lovely old style pickguard in place. blueharriss.... Please look in the treble side f-hole (not the one with the torn label and see if you can read a stamped number there. That would be the factory order number. (FON) I might be able to give you a date with that. Come back here and post it and maybe it will give a clue. Hope folks can follow my reasoning....its seems right to me with the information at hand. I'm not declaring or being absolute....but I'm pretty sure! Bet this is a nice guitar.....the pre-war 16" archtops can be fine instruments....and I especially like the earliest examples. Later work done by Gibson would add lots of interest to some folks. Especially if that work was documented. ziz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 ziz, I'm glad you came over. I think you are correct. Gibson was well known to update parts with current stock when re-doing a vintage guitar. I have seen that often on flat tops. The FON would tell a story for sure. Would this guitar have a V or rounded neck? Perhaps if the original case is available it might help. You can tell this is an early 16 inch body by the F holes and heel shape? It is a great looking guitar. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueharriss Posted December 19, 2009 Author Share Posted December 19, 2009 Thanks for all of the great insight! There are no other markings or stamps on the guitar or in the body. I am working on some better photos tomorrow. For what its worth, my Grandmother said the guitar was from 1928 but she was suffering from Alzheimers at the time so no idea if that was a moment of clarity or something contrived. I do have what I suspect is the original case and will post some photos tomorrow. Its black on the outside and purple(ish) on the inside and no insignia anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR56 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 ziz' date=' I'm glad you came over. I think you are correct. Gibson was well known to update parts with current stock when re-doing a vintage guitar.[/quote'] And yet you said the tailpiece "looked correct" after I had suggested that it was a later part; that you had seen those inlays on a number of pre-war archtops, and resisted my suggestion that the fretboard was replaced. ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 And yet you said the tailpiece "looked correct" after I had suggested that it was a later part; that you had seen those inlays on a number of pre-war archtops, and resisted my suggestion that the fretboard was replaced. ?? I apologize for offending you. I have seen these inlays on pre war arch tops, though not 16 inch bodies. 1939 L12 at Intermountain: http://www.guitarandbanjo.com/ I saw another on ebay but didn't save the pictures, don't remember the model. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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