edouardpernod Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 To explain my situation ... I purchase my J45 in 2006 that was the best sounding guitar I ever played the whole guitar vibrate the back a lot and also the side but , last year I went to europe and the house where i was living in canada with my family caught in fire the guitar was in it's case look wise the guitar wasn't hurt but sound wise now only the top vibrate is there a way to fix that ? I was thinking to put 13's instead of 12's for a little off time thanks for you help Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 The only thing I can think (or make sense of) from what you've described is that possibly the guitar's wood dried out from the fire's heat. Try buying some Martin guitar polish or another brand with some oils in it and polish the guitar up for a few weeks to try and restore the oils in the guitar's wood. People with wood furniture often have to keep their furniture polished with oils otherwise it dries out. It's possible, the fire caused your guitar woods to too severely dry out and it just needs to be rejuvenated. Worth a try. I have a number of vintage guitars and I find Martin's guitar polish keeps them in pretty good shape. QM aka Jazzman Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edouardpernod Posted December 27, 2009 Author Share Posted December 27, 2009 thanks ! thats the polish that I use I will try to use it more often Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 When I've often bought vintage guitars they're often really dried out, the first thing I do is polish them up everyday for about a week and then shift to monthly. Often their wood is really dried out. Before I know it, they're back lively again. I've often wondered why when people sell their old guitars, they don't bother first similarly just polishing em up and revitalizing their wood...its not like its hurting the finish or removing any original parts. (Many don't bother puttin' on new strings either before they sell em...which would make em sound better.) In the case of your guitar, it would make sense that the wood dried from the fire and just needs to be revitalized...which is the purpose of the polish besides the shine. QM aka Jazzman Jeff Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfden1 Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 With all due respect , polishing the guitar is not going to help. Drying out means just that, a loss of moisture relative to the surrounding humidity. Polish is not going to change that. What's more likely to have happened is that the heat of the fire may have loosened the glue and some braces may be loose as a result. The only real way to find out what's happening to it is to take it to an experienced repairman or luthier and have him check it out thoroughly. In the mean time, do not put heavier strings on it, and forget the polish. It ain't gonna help and, if the finish is cracked at all from the heat, may make it worse, at least from an appearance perspective. Oh yeah, about polishing your guitar: http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/GenMaint/Cleaning/cleaning01.html Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfden1 Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 When I've often bought vintage guitars they're often really dried out' date=' the first thing I do is polish them up everyday for about a week and then shift to monthly. Often their wood is really dried out. Before I know it, they're back lively again. I've often wondered why when people sell their old guitars, they don't bother first similarly just polishing em up and revitalizing their wood...its not like its hurting the finish or removing any original parts. (Many don't bother puttin' on new strings either before they sell em...which would make em sound better.) In the case of your guitar, it would make sense that the wood dried from the fire and just needs to be revitalized...which is the purpose of the polish besides the shine. QM aka Jazzman Jeff Q[/quote'] Where do you get this information? Do you have a link, because I sure would like to read it. Afaik, the polish is to clean and shine the finish and does nothing to "revitalize" the wood. On a vintage guitar, polishing may actually do more harm than good. See the link to frets.com I posted above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 Take a straight-edge and lay it over the top across the lower bouts. You should see a slight dome to the top. Do the same on the back. Again, you should see the back is slightly arched in the centre. If your top or bottom is high on the sides and low in the centre (concave rather than convex) then the guitar is in desperate need of moisture. You can't replace the moisture in wood by pouring water on it or putting any kind of polish on it. The only way is to introduce humidity into the air around and mostly inside the guitar. Get yourself some dampits and do what Bob Taylor says in these videos: Bob Taylor Discusses Guitars and Humidity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edouardpernod Posted December 27, 2009 Author Share Posted December 27, 2009 believe or not martin polish had works ( I think because it is made out of oil and nitrocellulose let breathe the guitar also let enter the oil from the polish ) and the guitar has been checked out by a senior luthier that teach lutherie here in québec city no loose brace nothing ... the guitar was in it's case (while the house has burn) ... here the humidity of the house is exacty 45% year long ... there was almost no lacquer checking except on the neck to body join ( slight crack) ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edouardpernod Posted December 27, 2009 Author Share Posted December 27, 2009 to make an idea of the sound of the guitar : G series takamine only the top and nothing magic anymore ... but to make clear I sprayed a thick coat of martin guitar polish twice and let it dry out than a thin one than polish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 Voodoo BS IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 I'm amazed as how can the concept of treating wood with polish (and the oils is contains) to keep it in good shape can be perceived as some kind of voodoo bs, but yet Bob Taylor's narrative on humidifying a guitar can be taken (on a Gibson forum yet) as some kind of gospel. Wood polishes are to keep wood in good shape...woods in good shape typically have a shine to them (dried out unhealthy wood does not). The shine is secondary. Treating solid wood with polishes and oils has been around for ages as a tried and true practice for good solid wood..whereas only in recent years (promoted by Taylor guitars for sure...prior to Taylors, no one ever worried about humidifying a guitar) the whole gadgetry of guitar humidifiors came into being. (Not that they're bad. It's just that guitars existed without them for years and years provided their owners kept them well taken care of with such things as good polishes, similar as fine wooden furniture (not today's laminated furniture.) Come on... QM aka Jazzman Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guth Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 I've always assumed that one uses guitar polish to remove dirt/crud buildup from the guitar's finish and restore the appearance of that finish (note that I said the guitar's finish, not the guitar's wood). I don't believe that the polish is actually effecting the wood of the guitar, as long as it is simply being wiped on and off as directed. Using a guitar humidifier on the other hand, especially with something like a Dampit or an Oasis humidifier helps to keep the wood from drying out too much in months when the humidity is really low inside your house (or wherever you might store your guitar). If a guitar has already shown signs of experiencing problems from a lack of humidity, it can still be corrected in many cases with the use of such products over an extended period of time. All the best, Guth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 It would make sense that if its affecting the finish, it is also affecting the wood as they're intricately blended together unless some form of finish is over the wood that would not enable anything to penetrate it....like on inexpensive laminated wood guitars. The whole thing of Gibson nitro-cellulose finishes and its solid wood is the finish gets more and more ingrained with the wood over time...one of the reasons the tone keeps improving. With a polish's oils getting more in more ingrained in the wood, the more the guitar's wood is able to impede drying out as oil repels water. (So water can't get absorbed into the wood and then dry out the wood along with it when it evaporates as well as to deflect excess moisture from forming inside the wood by repelling it to the surface. I think). Regarding humidifiers, one should also remember that too much humidity is actually worse on a guitar than not enough...as dried wood can be restored while overdampened wood can warp...which is bad news. My Gibson authorized repairperson and I had a good talk about how he'd much rather repair a wood crack from a guitar drying out from lack of humidity that from a wood warp from water or excess humidity (or from a humidifior breaking) in a case or a guitar. His perspective was that a crack can always be repaired when caused from a lack humidity while damage and/or warping from water/broken humidifier, or excess humidity can not necessarily be repaired. Obviously, the best thing to do is to make sure the guitar neither dries out or gets wet/damp by whatever means (and to make sure if using a humidifier that its a good one that won't break inside a case or guitar.) Just something to think about. In the case of a guitar that been subjected to excessive heat from a fire by it, keeping that guitar well polished with a good oil polish as well as appropriately humidified should do a lot to rejuvenate it and keep it rejuvenated. QM aka Jazzman Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guth Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 I suppose this falls into that category where we're better off to agree to disagree. As long as you're happy with the way your guitars are holding up over the years (as am I), then all is good. All the best, Guth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfden1 Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 +1 Guth. I started to write a response to QM's last two posts, but there is so much to respond to there it would take a battallion and I just don't have the energy. Suffice it to say that wood doesn't "breathe", polish doesn't "revitalize" it, nitrocelluose thins over time as it drys and outgasses, which is the reason it it sounds so good (thin finish = good) but doesn't "integrate" with the wood, and Bob Taylor has nothing to do with our modern awareness of humidity issues and their affects on guitars (which, by the way, are not the same as furniture). There are numerous discussions by many, many luthiers on various forums on precisely these and related issues that one could get quite an education if one were to take the time to do a search, but QM you'll just have to do your own (but I'm betting you won't) . One last thought though, if finish and polish are so integral to the health of your guitar, why is it that the inside is left completely bare? Don't try to answer, just think about it. By the way, fwiw, I agree with Guth that polish is to clean and protect the finish, nothing more. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 I'm not prepared to "agree to disagree" on this topic as leaving it unresolved may make people more complacent about their solid wood instruments and the absolute need to care for it properly. Since I'm no expert guitar maker (and I argue that Bob Taylor knows of which he speaks), I'm in the process of asking some experts in the field whose advice one should not ignore. These experts include Frank Ford, Teja Gerken and Rick Turner among others. I'll post whatever answers I receive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 I've compiled a list of articles from various sources including some acoustic guitar builders of some repute like Larrivee, Collings, Santa Cruz, Martin and Taylor. Their collective experience outweighs everyone here. They are not promoting Dampits or PlanetWaves humidifiers for a percentage of the profits. Bill Collings and every other reputable builder is interested in ensuring their creations are cared for properly, Articles on guitars and humidity from builders: CF Martin Jean Larrivee Bill Collings Bob Taylor Santa Cruz Here are a couple of photos of what low humidity does to an acoustic guitar. Collapsing Top Shrinking Fretboard (with protruding fret ends) The idea that polish can fix a dried out guitar is laughable and dangerous. Polish is used to clean and shine the finished surface. Guitars are NOT finished on the inside. Solid wood that is unfinished and exposed to low humidity will shrink across the grain causing the grain to separate like this: Solid wood stringed instruments have required proper humidity since their invention. Pianos require humidification when the RH drops below 40% as much, if not more, than guitars. The soundboard of a grand piano is a very expensive thing to fix. Ask anyone who has to maintain a 9' Steinway, or Bosendorfer. My university has a $250,000 Fazioli 9' concert grand piano and the humidified piano box is worth $25,000. Of course, people can do as they wish with their own property. However, I would take the advice of the experts cited above as they have been in the business a long time and and know whereof they speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 I suppose this falls into that category where we're better off to agree to disagree. As long as you're happy with the way your guitars are holding up over the years (as am I)' date=' then all is good. All the best, Guth[/quote'] Guth-well said! QM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Doug-Not really sure where you're coming from. Nowhere did I say anything disputing that wood can dry out and cause problems. Also, not sure where you're coming from when you said you're betting I wouldn't do any research. As mentioned, I spoke to a Gibson authorized repairperson about how he'd rather fix a dried out guitar than a swelled/warped one from dampness from over humidifying (or a humidfier breaking.) (Also, I stressed the importance of taking care of an instrument including keeping it appropriately humidified.) While, yes...in addition to conveying the information about my Gibson repairperson's experience with his preference to repairing dried out wood rather than water warp wood, the information I provided was from also from my own 47 years of taking care of guitars as well as some tidbits from this chemical study of woods and oils: http://www.recorderhomepage.net/wood.html#Chemistry I've got a 1936 Epiphone Zenith, a 1956 Epiphone FT79, a Gibson 1965 LG1, a Gibson 1965 125TC, a 1965 Epiphone Caballero, a 1972 Gibson SJ, a 1994 Gibson Gospel, a 1936 KayKraft, and a 50s Silvertone in my stable all of which for many years I have made sure are well cared for in the manner I've described...so, I'm confident that the advice I provided is credible. (Remember, nowhere did I say not to appropriately humidify a guitar. Plus, it seems Ken the original poster of this string of posts indicated my original advice helped.) I prefer at this point to take Guth's approach and say we're better off to agree to disagree as I'm happy with the way my guitars are holding up (as he is)...and thus...all is good. Ken seems happy, too. So, I'm not really sure where you're coming from with the "I'll bet you's and "I find it laughable's" in your posts. Whatever...I certainly don't wish to get into a I'm right/You're wrong putdown thang and hope that isn't your motivation either. My best to you! QM aka Jazzman Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfden1 Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 QM, just to be clear, I'm the one that said that I doubted that you would do any research on the issue, not Doug. I don't want him to take the blame for one of my posts. Yes, it's true that you did mention your tech's talk about preferring to repair a crack rather than an overwatered guitar, but that's not really what's being talked about here and not really relevant to the OP's problem. Here the OP has a guitar than was in it's case in a fire and doesn't sound the same as a result. Your advice is to polish it as a way to "revitalize" the wood. Not only is that just plain wrong, it doesn't at all help in trying to analyze what may be going on with his guitar. Where some of us have a problem is advice that somehow polishing your guitar is going to help deal with humidity issues and "revitalize" the wood, which it clearly does not. I asked you earlier where you got that information and if you would point me to a link so that I could read it, and you never responded, which makes me believe this is just all conjecture on your part and not based on any real evidence (and I don't mean anecdotal evidence). Ken may be happy for now, but I bet not for long. If he is, I'll be surprised. I guess we'll see. Oh, and by the way, I have a few vintage guitars too. Big whoop. It don't mean a thing if you don't understand what's going on with them. Apparently, you don't. You need to do a bit more than just have a conversation with your local guitar tech. My local tech thinks Gibson stopped making guitars altogether during WWII, and we all know that's not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guth Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Where some of us have a problem is advice that somehow polishing your guitar is going to help deal with humidity issues and "revitalize" the wood' date=' which it clearly does not. [/quote'] Thanks for clarifying this point Dennis. I would encourage anyone (during this time of year especially when many of us throughout the country are running forced air systems for heating our living quarters) to do their own research and figure out how they might best keep an eye on the relative humidity of the room (and/or the instrument case) where their guitars are kept. Then they should decide for themselves how they want to address this, either through humidifying the room itself or simply by controlling the humidity in the guitar case by whatever means possible. The more severe the winter conditions (the colder it is outside, and the more you find yourself running the heater), the more you'll need to address this issue. People living in a milder climate won't have to worry about this as much. Its also interesting to note (I believe the link that Doug provided to the Santa Cruz site noted this) that the newer the guitar, the more important this issue is. Older guitars that have been properly cared for are much more stable in this regard (for lack of a better way to describe it). As to the original poster - I would have your guitar inspected by a skilled luthier/repair person to ensure that the glue and bracing are still intact. Exposure to extremely high temperatures might have compromised the structural integrity of the guitar. All the best, Guth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Doug-Not really sure where you're coming from. Nowhere did I say anything disputing that wood can dry out and cause problems. Also' date=' not sure where you're coming from when you said you're betting I wouldn't do any research. As mentioned, I spoke to a Gibson authorized repairperson about how he'd rather fix a dried out guitar than a swelled/warped one from dampness from over humidifying (or a humidfier breaking.) (Also, I stressed the importance of taking care of an instrument including keeping it appropriately humidified.) While, yes...in addition to conveying the information about my Gibson repairperson's experience with his preference to repairing dried out wood rather than water warp wood, the information I provided was from also from my own 47 years of taking care of guitars as well as some tidbits from this chemical study of woods and oils: http://www.recorderhomepage.net/wood.html#Chemistry I've got a 1936 Epiphone Zenith, a 1956 Epiphone FT79, a Gibson 1965 LG1, a Gibson 1965 125TC, a 1965 Epiphone Caballero, a 1972 Gibson SJ, a 1994 Gibson Gospel, a 1936 KayKraft, and a 50s Silvertone in my stable all of which for many years I have made sure are well cared for in the manner I've described...so, I'm confident that the advice I provided is credible. (Remember, nowhere did I say not to appropriately humidify a guitar. Plus, it seems Ken the original poster of this string of posts indicated my original advice helped.) I prefer at this point to take Guth's approach and say we're better off to agree to disagree as I'm happy with the way my guitars are holding up (as he is)...and thus...all is good. Ken seems happy, too. So, I'm not really sure where you're coming from with the "I'll bet you's and "I find it laughable's" in your posts. Whatever...I certainly don't wish to get into a I'm right/You're wrong putdown thang and hope that isn't your motivation either. My best to you! QM aka Jazzman Jeff[/quote'] Thanks to Guth and sfden1 for the responses above. This is not a personal attack or a "putdown thang". My quarrel with your arguments has to do with this post you made: I'm amazed as how can the concept of treating wood with polish (and the oils is contains) to keep it in good shape can be perceived as some kind of voodoo bs' date=' but yet Bob Taylor's narrative on humidifying a guitar can be taken (on a Gibson forum yet) as some kind of gospel. Wood polishes are to keep wood in good shape...woods in good shape typically have a shine to them (dried out unhealthy wood does not). The shine is secondary. Treating solid wood with polishes and oils has been around for ages as a tried and true practice for good solid wood..whereas only in recent years (promoted by Taylor guitars for sure...prior to Taylors, no one ever worried about humidifying a guitar) the whole gadgetry of guitar humidifiors came into being. (Not that they're bad. It's just that guitars existed without them for years and years provided their owners kept them well taken care of with such things as good polishes, similar as fine wooden furniture (not today's laminated furniture.) Come on... [/quote'] You suggest that prior to Bob Taylor "promoting" humidification no one ever worried about humidifying a guitar) the whole gadgetry of guitar humidifiors came into being". You further suggest that polishes and oils are a tried and true method of treating and caring for the wood on stringed instruments. The reason I'm taking such exception to these ideas in your posts is that it is not only just plain wrong, but could be dangerous to instruments if the misconceptions and errors were left unchallenged. I'm only a layman as you and most others here are. So I posted the opinions of a variety of well respected guitar building professionals to counter the erroneous suggestions above. Please feel free to post some peer reviewed article which supports your contention that humidification was not a concern until Taylor promoted it and spawned a guitar humidifier industry or that polish is a "tried and true" method for the care of wood in string instruments and I'll gladly recant. This is more than just "my opinion/ your opinion". A lot of people believe the world is flat and 6000 years old. That doesn't make them right. So there is my motivation. This is not a flame war. We can argue these issues and still remain friends IMO. As long as it doesn't interfere with my guitar playing time! Doug PS: I just received this reply to my question about polishes and humidification from Rick Turner. I shouldn't have to introduce Rick to guitar enthusiasts but here is his bio on Wiki... Rick Turner. Here is his response to my question: I'm amazed at how expert some people can assume themselves to be. The last thing you want to do is use furniture polish or oils on a guitar top. Shine has nothing to do with condition. All you have to do is spend a couple of weeks in a guitar repair shop to see the damage that can happen with over-dried guitars. Guitar tops were splitting a long time before Bob Taylor helped publicize the problem and helped get industry consensus on the responsibility of guitar shops and guitar owners in taking care of instruments. If you don't want to take care of a guitar, get a carbon fiber or plywood one. -------------------- Rick Turner www.renaissanceguitars.com www.d-tar.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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