Calling Les Paul Experts and Price Experts

[Kreature]

Hey guys and girls,

 

I have a couple of, perhaps silly, questions. But questions nonetheless.

 

I'm not very well versed in Les Pauls as far as production year, model and prices go, and I would like to be educated on the matter. (read: I'm looking to possibly buy another Les Paul).

 

Les Paul Standard:

 

Over different production periods like 80s, 90s, 2000s or any specific years known for certain trends in building and public opinion, are there any notable differences between:

 

 

-Street prices

-2nd hand prices

-Quality

-Any other differences that may come to mind, for example different building materials/techniques used etc

-I'd also like your thoughts on what would a "fair" 2nd hand price for each be, what would be an absolute "steal" and what a hideous rip-off price would be.

 

(Please do talk about the 70s, 60s, and 50s as well if there is something interesting/note worthy, but I think as far as buying a guitar goes, the 60s and 50s are out of my league financially).

 

 

Les Paul Studio:

 

I've noticed that some 2nd hand sellers price their 90s Studios as high as new 2000s studios. Opinions?

 

Is there a specific stock of or production year of a Les Paul studio that is regarded as the best all across the board?

 

 

 

Les Paul Customs

 

Any notable differences between:

 

-Street prices

-2nd hand prices

-Quality

-Any other differences that may come to mind, for example different building materials/techniques used etc

-I'd also like your thoughts on what would a "fair" 2nd hand price for each be, what would be an absolute "steal" and what a hideous rip-off price would be.

 

Over different production periods like 80s, 90s, 2000s or any specific years known for certain trends in building or public opinion. (Please do talk about the 70s, 60s, and 50s as well if there is something interesting/note worthy, but I think as far as buying a guitar goes, the 60s and 50s are out of my league financially).

 

Also, what are the differences between "Customs" and "Classic Customs"? I'm guessing, probably wrong, that the classic custom is a "custom shop" classic les paul, while the customs are a separate production line?

 

 

 

Thank you very much. I'm sure I'll come up with plenty of more questions as they pop into my head.

[Flight959]

Now is the worst time to buy secondhand! Prices have climbed lots! so to give a street price and a used price would depend on so many factors like your location.

 

IMO I wouldn't own a new LP Standard! I think they feel cheap and lightweight and I dont like the necks on them. I have never owned an 80's or 90's Standard so I can't pass my opinion on them however a friend owns an 86 Standard and its a killer guitar!!

 

For me Guitars from the Custom Shop win hands down EVERYTIME... IMO

[Kreature]

Prices have climbed lots! so to give a street price and a used price would depend on so many factors like your location.

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

How about relative prices between different models, eras, etc. As in not exact prices, but maybe something like "well, '90-'95 model Xs are generally about 20% more expensive second hand than model Xs of '96-2005 because of factors Y and Z"

 

Why do you think prices have climbed so much? Is this a trend you see amongst all models and production years? If the prices have climbed, might that perhaps be because people tend to think "older is better"? (whether or not that is right or wrong) Or perhaps because sellers have seen certain new models of Les Pauls sold for higher than say 5 years ago? (I don't know if that's true either, just an example)

 

Also, I really don't think location matters that much anymore. I may be wrong though. Maybe the availability of certain models in a certain area might play into it a little bit, but generally what I see is at least over here in europe a lot of people seem to use stores like Thomann.de as a pretty good measuring rod on how much they can ask for a certain product. Also, I don't see that big off a price gap between sellers in the US and europe. But, again I may be wrong. Although, I don't consider it a good idea to by a guitar without testing it, but the information on how much different stores all across the globe are selling something is readily available and must have played some kind of a role in stores and sellers in remote areas asking ridiculous amounts of extra money for bringing a alleged "rarity" into the area.

 

Edit: the word R-i-d-i-c-u-l-o-u-s is getting censored by the way

[Yaff]

Although this is from another forum, it could help you with your questions:

 

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/gibson-les-pauls/50210-gibson-les-paul-101-a.html

 

Regarding weight, generalising can result in miss leading information. For example, there are 08 Standards out there as light as 6. 5 lbs and as heavy as 10 lbs. My personal one weighs in at 9 lb, which I would not describe as "feel cheap and lightweight". There are also solid body LP`s out there, weight much less than my 08 Standard.

 

My Studio worn brown ( all mahogany) is at the lower end of the scale, at 6.5 lb. They both feel and sound fantastic.

 

If you are planing to buy a new or used LP, I recommend that you try some for your self, as there tends to be significant differences in the tone and feel, even when considering several of the same model, made in the same year. For me, this is one of the things that makes owning a LP such a special thing, as they all have their own personality.

 

All the best

[Xinnix]

Now is the worst time to buy secondhand! Prices have climbed lots! so to give a street price and a used price would depend on so many factors like your location. I wouldn't own a new LP Standard!

 

I don't agree with either of these two comments!

 

First off, its always a good time to by secondhand or used if your a smart shopper!

Generally, you will get a great guitar that someone loved and may have upgraded at less then Retail.

My 05 Standard I got for $1400 and it already had a $300 Buzz Feiten tuning upgrade with a bone nut! Sounds KILLER!

 

As for prices climbing? Haven't seen the prices come back to were they were in 2007 so if you don't by used now,

you may be paying a lot more in a year or so?

 

Also, Standards are great guitars! Like most Gibson LPs, You need to play it and decide if its right for you.

I'd put my Standard up against any Custom, but I wouldn't go out and say all Standards are better then Customs.

[Kreature]

Although this is from another forum' date=' it could help you with your questions:

 

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/gibson-les-pauls/50210-gibson-les-paul-101-a.html

 

[/quote']

 

Thanks. I'll go check it out.

 

 

Regarding weight, generalising can result in miss leading information. For example, there are 08 Standards out there as light as 6. 5 lbs and as heavy as 10 lbs. My personal one weighs in at 9 lb, which I would not describe as "feel cheap and lightweight". There are also solid body LP`s out there, weight much less than my 08 Standard.

 

 

Cool. Yeah, I totally see what you mean, makes sense. But as far a pricing, do you think some of the more recent era guitars have seen a trend of going for cheaper or more expensive second hand, than others from some recent era. For example something like '90'-99 compared to 00-05 ? or something.

 

If you are planing to buy a new or used LP, I recommend that you try some for your self, as there tends to be significant differences in the tone and feel, even when considering several of the same model, made in the same year. For me, this is one of the things that makes owning a LP such a special thing, as they all have their own personality.

 

All the best

 

 

Yeah, I agree. Guitars can be very different from one to another even if they're two of consecutive serial numbers. So, that's very good advice. Anyway, I guess what I was trying to find out in my original post was if there are certain well known trends that sellers are aware of like "oh, your LP Standard is a '96, don't go under 80% of what you paid for it new" or "Oh, you've got an 02 LP, don't ask for more than 70% of the retail price in 2002" or something... Just so I'm sort of in the ball park as far as being able to tell if these 2nd sellers are giving good deals or are trying to rip off people... I don't know... maybe that's not even possible, except for the vintage years/stock.. ?

[Kreature]

I don't agree with either of these two comments!

 

First off' date=' its always a good time to by secondhand or used if your a smart shopper!

Generally, you will get a great guitar that someone loved and may have upgraded at less then Retail.

 

[/quote']

 

Yeah, that's how I've thought for a long time too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Haven't seen the prices come back to were they were in 2007 so if you don't by used now,

you may be paying a lot more in a year or so?

 

 

Yeah, I'd think of it more in those terms too.

 

But, I'm willing to listen if people want to debate their projections of the future as far as prices of gibsons

[jnastynebr]

Now is the worst time to buy secondhand! Prices have climbed lots! so to give a street price and a used price would depend on so many factors like your location.

 

IMO I wouldn't own a new LP Standard! I think they feel cheap and lightweight and I dont like the necks on them. I have never owned an 80's or 90's Standard so I can't pass my opinion on them however a friend owns an 86 Standard and its a killer guitar!!

 

For me Guitars from the Custom Shop win hands down EVERYTIME... IMO

 

New USA Standard Plus guitars come with some new features like tone chambering, locking bridge and tuners, and a new neck profile. There are other Standard models like the Standard Traditional Pro that offer 50s or 60 neck profile without tone chambers. So there are many options on specs for Gibson USA Standards. I have seen some models on ebay go for around $1500 and even less. Flight959 does not like the new Standards, but I am an advocate and suggest playing one if you have not already.

Custom Shop is a clear fav, but they will also cost you twice as much. This guy wasnt asking which is best, Clearly the custom shop stuff is their flagship. hense the name, "Custom Shop" This guy wants to know what years are the best for each Les Paul model.

The answer is, whatever year has the specs that you want. Browse ebay or the interweb and find one that has everthing you want. Only buy if they have a return policy. It plays and sounds great, than that was a great year and you should keep it. If you dont like it, send it back.

If your looking for one that will gain value as an investment, than I would look at other investment options.

[Yaff]

Thanks. I'll go check it out.

 

 

 

Cool. Yeah' date=' I totally see what you mean, makes sense. But as far a pricing, do you think some of the more recent era guitars have seen a trend of going for cheaper or more expensive second hand, than others from some recent era. For example something like '90'-99 compared to 00-05 ? or something.

 

 

 

Yeah, I agree. Guitars can be very different from one to another even if they're two of consecutive serial numbers. So, that's very good advice. Anyway, I guess what I was trying to find out in my original post was if there are certain well known trends that sellers are aware of like "oh, your LP Standard is a '96, don't go under 80% of what you paid for it new" or "Oh, you've got an 02 LP, don't ask for more than 70% of the retail price in 2002" or something... Just so I'm sort of in the ball park as far as being able to tell if these 2nd sellers are giving good deals or are trying to rip off people... I don't know... maybe that's not even possible, except for the vintage years/stock.. ?

[/quote']

 

If there is a desirable guitar in limited supply, it will most probably hold its value better than something that is readily available (supply and demand). So after the initial deprecation on a brand new guitar, the years that had the most desirable features, with low sales volumes would hold their value better.

 

The problem is, unless you are talking about very old guitars, there are plenty of examples of most versions on the market, so I would not expect them to hold their value any better than any other year.

 

I personally think the current versions are the best made to date, as logic suggests Gibson would not on purpose make the product worse. They may come out with the odd disaster like the Dusk Tiger, but in the main, they will leverage innovation to make things better.

 

I would also say, you should buy the guitar that you love to play, not the one that you think is going to make you money. Without a magic ball, knowonw realy knows what the future value will be, but if you buy one you love to paly, you are guaranteed many years of pleasure

[Tim Plains]

Custom Shop is a clear fav' date=' but they will also cost you twice as much.[/quote']

Simply not true. People buy brand new R8s from $2,500 - $2,800 every day. Just because the sticker price may say $3,700, doesn't mean you have to pay it. Now compare that to the price of a new Traditional or Standard.

[Tim Plains]

Kreature...within the last six months, I've seen one or two LP Standards sell on eBay for as little as $800 (or so). That's a steal but I'd say the typical range for a good condition Standard with a burst finish would be $1,200 - $1,500. Guitars aren't like cars - once you buy a car, it looses value every single year and eventually reaches $0. You loose money when you buy a new guitar but then the value of it remains fairly constant throughout the years - that's why a '95 Studio may sell for the same amount as an '05.

 

Early '90s Gibson USA LPs are always regarded as being the best by their owners.

 

Customs - probably around $3,000 for a new one, $1,800 - $2,500 for used. They became Custom Shop guitars in 2004. Still the same guitar (swiss cheese, short neck tenon - you'll know what these mean if you read that Les Paul 101 thread) but supposedly better quality - fretwork, attention to detail, etc. Classic Customs are just Gibson USA guitars. They look slightly fancier than your typical Les Paul but not as fancy as a Custom.

 

Historic reissues are the absolute best guitars Gibson makes from a quality perspective. You can get historic Standards (R7, R9, etc.) or historic Customs (R4BB, R7BB. BB = Black Beauty). There's also a '68 Custom, which is never listed on Gibson.com for some reason. Same guitar as the R7BB but with a maple cap and Gibson USA electronics. Best bang for the buck, Custom wise.

[jnastynebr]

Simply not true. People buy brand new R8s from $2' date='500 - $2,800 every day. Just because the sticker price may say $3,700, doesn't mean you have to pay it. Now compare that to the price of a new Traditional or Standard.[/quote']

and you can buy a standard brand new for $1500= a little more than half on the high end.

[CajunBlues]

First off' date=' its always a good time to by secondhand or used if your a smart shopper!

.[/quote']

 

I totally agree with this statement... I have heard that the les pauls (espcially custom shop) made from 1995 to 2000 were supposed to be of a higher quality... I have heard the Norlin years (70's) produced sub par les pauls... But all the customs I have played from the 70's have been to die for... So, really I guess there is no such thing as a time period where Gibson produced low quality customs...

 

I owned at one time a 1987 studio... It seemed to have better finish qualities than the studios of today.. I can't tell the difference in tone or playability...

 

btw... My custom is a 1999... And of course I think it's the best guitar ever made...

 

Oh yeah and speaking of smart shopping, I bought that custom for $1500 3 years ago...

[Kreature]

Kreature...within the last six months' date=' I've seen one or two LP Standards sell on eBay for as little as $800 (or so). That's a steal but I'd say the typical range for a good condition Standard with a burst finish would be $1,200 - $1,500. Guitars aren't like cars - once you buy a car, it looses value every single year and eventually reaches $0. You loose money when you buy a new guitar but then the value of it remains fairly constant throughout the years - that's why a '95 Studio may sell for the same amount as an '05.

 

Early '90s Gibson USA LPs are always regarded as being the best by their owners.

 

Customs - probably around $3,000 for a new one, $1,800 - $2,500 for used. They became Custom Shop guitars in 2004. Still the same guitar (swiss cheese, short neck tenon - you'll know what these mean if you read that Les Paul 101 thread) but supposedly better quality - fretwork, attention to detail, etc. Classic Customs are just Gibson USA guitars. They look slightly fancier than your typical Les Paul but not as fancy as a Custom.

 

Historic reissues are the absolute best guitars Gibson makes from a quality perspective. You can get historic Standards (R7, R9, etc.) or historic Customs (R4BB, R7BB. BB = Black Beauty). There's also a '68 Custom, which is never listed on Gibson.com for some reason. Same guitar as the R7BB but with a maple cap and Gibson USA electronics. Best bang for the buck, Custom wise.[/quote']

 

Thank you very much. I'm looking at a couple of standards from early to mid twenties which the sellers are selling for about 1400-1500 USD, so I guess I'm not gonna feel like a total a-hole trying to bargain the price down a bit. But, just a bit I guess.

[Kreature]

I would also say' date=' you should buy the guitar that you love to play, not the one that you think is going to make you money. Without a magic ball, knowonw realy knows what the future value will be, but if you buy one you love to paly, you are guaranteed many years of pleasure

 

Of course! I would definitely not buy a guitar blind and I wouldn't suggest that to anyone else either.

 

Also, like I said, my inquiry was more based on pricing right now, rather than projections into the future, for the purpose of knowing what kind of offers I can expect as a potential buyer.

[Xinnix]

Oh yeah and speaking of smart shopping' date=' I bought that custom for $1500 3 years ago... [/quote']

 

 

Now thats a steal-! I'm jealous