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Replacing for Tonepros


scotteads

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I have 4 epis, all with tonepro's UPGRADES.

 

The Tonepros are MUCH better quality than the stock Bridge/Tailpiece.

 

The sustain is MUCH better with the System II.

 

The Tonepros upgrade is one of the better , and easiest UPGRADE that you can make.

 

Make no mistake, the System II is an huge UPGRADE from the stock Bridge/Tailpiece combination.

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Hang on chaps...everybody's right here ! It's just not so black and white ;^)

 

Overpriced ? In material terms, Definitely. The typical tone-pros bridge is essentially the well engineered Gotoh.

...which means that you're paying half of the asking price for the tapped hole and grub screw !

 

Hype ? To a degree, yes. Doesn't it make you wonder how on earth Gibson type guitars have sounded

any good at all for the last 50 or so years ? [if a guitar needs a Tone-Pros bridge to cut the mustard,

it has other issues.]

 

All that said, the Tone-Pros kit is engineered to a tangibly higher standard than the stock Epi hardware.

The standard of engineering and finsh in the stock bridge does result in quite a few annoying little issues.[All easy to fix if you have the know how ...but annoying none the less.

 

Many guitars will sound noticeably better when fitted with an "upgraded" bridge from Tone-Pros, Gotoh or whoever. [some guitars won't benefit so much ...and the odd one might sound worse ;^)].

 

I can understand why folks do it...and even if all it buys is peace of mind, it's probably worth it for many folks.

[i must admit to being a sucker for [i]anything[/i] that's well engineered ..and slightly troubled by anything that's not.]

 

There is merit under the undoubted hype...just don't swallow the hook, line and sinker ;^)

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I have 4 epis' date=' all with tonepro's UPGRADES.

 

The Tonepros are MUCH better quality than the stock Bridge/Tailpiece.

 

The sustain is MUCH better with the System II.

 

The Tonepros upgrade is one of the better , and easiest UPGRADE that you can make.

 

Make no mistake, the System II is an huge UPGRADE from the stock Bridge/Tailpiece combination.[/quote']

 

Tonepros is the standard Gotoh hardware available at Stew-Mac for a lot less money but the two set screws almost triple the cost. Talk about being brainwashed...Perhaps an upgrade over the stock Epiphone hardware but ridiculously over-priced and questionably effective.

 

...and Al's your uncle.

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The funny thing is I've seen cheap guitars offer them as standard equipment, Michael Kelly guitars, (which are basically cheap to mid cheap priced imports, probably made by Samick) have Tone Pros on them from the factory, and many of their electrics sell for a street price of under $500. :-k

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I have 4 epis' date=' all with tonepro's UPGRADES.

 

The Tonepros are MUCH better quality than the stock Bridge/Tailpiece.

 

The sustain is MUCH better with the System II.

 

The Tonepros upgrade is one of the better , and easiest UPGRADE that you can make.

 

Make no mistake, the System II is an huge UPGRADE from the stock Bridge/Tailpiece combination.[/quote']I've yet to see one shred of REAL scientific data proving more sustain with the Tone Pros.Their hogwash sales pitch proves nothing. Chances are you may see LESS sustain with Tone Pros due to string energy being bled off into the body.

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The funny thing is I've seen cheap guitars offer them as standard equipment' date=' Michael Kelly guitars, (which are basically cheap to mid cheap priced imports, probably made by Samick) have Tone Pros on them from the factory, and many of their electrics sell for a street price of under $500. :-k [/quote']

 

Oh, what would you know about any of it? Some newbie pops in here and suddenly he's an expert...

 

Just foolin' G. I recall your original go 'round with those people. You know, if you can come up with the right packaging and line of hype I believe anything can be sold... look at GFS and those Korean pickups Kent Armstrong is re-selling- probably the same sourced Asian parts as used OEM on a lot of guitars but make them cheap enough, put them in some shiny packaging and write some glowing reviews on Harmony Central and suddenly they're "Boutique"...and it's some of these same people who claim the Gibson thing is all hype...not that it isn't but you know what I mean. Anyway, good to see the kindler, gentler WC doing his thing here.

 

...and Al's your uncle.

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You are looking at the scientific data in the avatar.

 

The tonepros system II is twice the weight of a standard epi bridge/tail. This will only enhance the sound and sustain.

 

Here is the scientific data: The EPI LP customs that I have installed these on play much better than the stock ones. I do not know what kind of scientific data you are looking for. I do not know anyone that installs upgrades on their guitars based on "scientific data". If that was the case, we would all have Line6 variax's. It is all about personal sound and feel, not E=MC2rd.

 

Unless you have heard and played the difference, you will not know this.

 

As far as the Gotoh/Tonepros argument: You have a valid point. They are virtually the same itms at about half the price in chrome. All of my guitars however have gold hardware. Tonepros gold plating is better than gotoh's. I have used both, and the tonepro's gold just looks better, and the plating is a better quality than the gotoh's.

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You are looking at the scientific data in the avatar.

 

The tonepros system II is twice the weight of a standard epi bridge/tail. This will only enhance the sound and sustain.

 

Here is the scientific data: The EPI LP customs that I have installed these on play much better than the stock ones. I do not know what kind of scientific data you are looking for. I do not know anyone that installs upgrades on their guitars based on "scientific data". If that was the case' date=' we would all have Line6 variax's. It is all about personal sound and feel, not E=MC2rd.

 

Unless you have heard and played the difference, you will not know this.

 

As far as the Gotoh/Tonepros argument: You have a valid point. They are virtually the same itms at about half the price in chrome. All of my guitars however have gold hardware. Tonepros gold plating is better than gotoh's. I have used both, and the tonepro's gold just looks better, and the plating is a better quality than the gotoh's.

[/quote']

 

You're just not getting it...The hardware that Tonepros drills two little holes in and installs two little set screw *IS* stock Gotoh hardware. The very same that you can buy without the holes for much less at Stewart McDonald. What Tonepros does is buys the hardware from Gotoh in bulk so their price starting out is *MUCH* less than the retail you're paying at Stew Mac. They then put the bridge/tail piece on a jig which taps two holes in the hardware and two screws are placed in the holes. A new package is created and gullible people then pay twice to three times what the original bridge would have cost... so Tonepros is making the money it would have re-selling the bridge without modification and then for what could only be a minimal production process cost they double the price. At the old forum this was all hashed out years ago. Some industrious people (who may have even posted earlier in this thread) decided to drill some holes of his own for his customers and ended up with nasty legal letters from Tonepros. None of this is a new discussion. There's no difference in the quality because the hardware used by Tonepros IS the same Gotoh hardware sold by Stew Mac. I don't know how the Tonepros gold is somehow better. That could be your brain's wishful thinking after spending that money you want to perceive some kind of advantage but it's all the same hardware. It may be an improvement over stock Epiphone hardware but Gotoh is Tonepros and Tonepros is Gotoh. It's also very likely that those two screws will diminish the sustain because you're losing a great deal of surface contact and focusing it on a very small area with as WC said, the string energy being bled off into the body because of this loss of surface to surface contact. Do whatever you wish. We're only trying to tell you what's already been long figured out concerning these snake oil, magic guitar tone enhancing products...if it were any more than gimmicks and hype don't you think they' be putting these "systems" on top-end guitars and not using them as a selling point on cheap guitars?

 

...and Al's your uncle.

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You are looking at the scientific data in the avatar.

 

The tonepros system II is twice the weight of a standard epi bridge/tail. This will only enhance the sound and sustain.

 

Here is the scientific data: The EPI LP customs that I have installed these on play much better than the stock ones. I do not know what kind of scientific data you are looking for. I do not know anyone that installs upgrades on their guitars based on "scientific data". If that was the case' date=' we would all have Line6 variax's. It is all about personal sound and feel, not E=MC2rd.

 

Unless you have heard and played the difference, you will not know this.

 

As far as the Gotoh/Tonepros argument: You have a valid point. They are virtually the same itms at about half the price in chrome. All of my guitars however have gold hardware. Tonepros gold plating is better than gotoh's. I have used both, and the tonepro's gold just looks better, and the plating is a better quality than the gotoh's.

[/quote']You have drank of the Tone Pros koolaid and are now stating things you can't substantiate.

 

What scientific data do I want? It should be easy to prove more sustain.

 

Your guitar now plays better? How is that? Unless there was something wrong with the original hardware that is impossible.

 

As far as twice the weight, you err GREATLY thinking that improves sound, fact is most folks with a good ear claim that a LIGHTWEIGHT tailpiece like some Gibsons have improves the sound, NOT a heavier one.

 

You are just one of many who have invested a lot of money with little to no return. You put them on 4 guitars, how much money was spent on that? Too much that's how much.;)

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None of this is made up. If you want to tell me that my guitars were **** before the tonepros, that's your opinion. How many guitars do you have that have a tonepros system? My bet is none. I am telling this from experience. My original starement was that the tonepros are much better than the stock bridge/tail.

I have been building guitars for 25 years. I am telling you flat out, these systems II give more sustain and playability than the stock units.

 

As far as the gotoh/tonepros thing goes ok, I buy that. But don't tell me that thay are not better than the stock bridge/tail. I have the proof in 4 kickass epi's. If they were not better than the stock items, I would not have changed it.

 

As far as these being installed on cheap guitars I guess a $ 5,000 PRS would be a cheap guitar to you.

 

I have the guitars that play better with these items. I am NOT making this stuff up.

 

BTW, I don't think name calling here is the way to go, brainwashed, naive, drank the koolaid, etc...

 

Most of us here really do have an idea of what we are doing. Your attacks don't make you right or wrong, just like you are trying to shout somebody down with YOUR OPINION.

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...The hardware that Tonepros drills two little holes in and installs two little set screw *IS* stock Gotoh hardware. The very same that you can buy without the holes for much less at Stewart McDonald...

 

While I somewhat agree with you about TonePros & hype' date=' they are not the same as the stock Gotoh bridges. That's not to say Gotoh doesn't make the TonePros for them (I've heard they do but can't claim it as fact), there are obvious differences:

 

1) The 6 intonation screws on the Gotoh have small philips heads and are held in place by hex nuts on the opposite side. TPs have large slotted heads and no hex nuts.

 

2) The saddles are different sizes, if you buy Graphtech saddles for a Gotoh, they won't fit on a TP.

 

3) Gotoh bridges are solid on the bottom (and say Gotoh Japan). TP bridges have no metal underneath the saddles, you can see the guitar body through the bridge.

 

Here's a Gotoh:

 

[left']

 

gotoh.jpg

 

[/left]

 

I don't have a loose TonePros bridge, but here's one that's on a guitar showing the slotted screws.

 

 

TP.jpg

 

 

Now I'm not saying that one is better than the other, just that they're not the same. Personally, I use Gotoh most of the time. If I have some TPs hanging about, I will use them. Both are good, but to be honest, bolting down the bridge is a pain when you have to do adjustments. But as far as the tail piece goes, it is nice that it doesn't fall off and ding the guitar. Even so, I prefer the Gotoh aluminum tailpiece.

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My original starement was that the tonepros are much better than the stock bridge/tail.

I have been building guitars for 25 years. I am telling you flat out' date=' these systems II give more sustain and playability than the stock units.[/quote']

 

No question. In fact, I think replacing a poor quality bridge & tailpiece will improve the tone more than swapping pickups in a lot of cases.

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None of this is made up. If you want to tell me that my guitars were **** before the tonepros' date=' that's your opinion. How many guitars do you have that have a tonepros system? My bet is none. I am telling this from experience. My original starement was that the tonepros are much better than the stock bridge/tail.

I have been building guitars for 25 years. I am telling you flat out, these systems II give more sustain and playability than the stock units.

 

As far as the gotoh/tonepros thing goes ok, I buy that. But don't tell me that thay are not better than the stock bridge/tail. I have the proof in 4 kickass epi's. If they were not better than the stock items, I would not have changed it.

 

As far as these being installed on cheap guitars I guess a $ 5,000 PRS would be a cheap guitar to you.

 

I have the guitars that play better with these items. I am NOT making this stuff up.

 

BTW, I don't think name calling here is the way to go, brainwashed, naive, drank the koolaid, etc...

 

Most of us here really do have an idea of what we are doing. Your attacks don't make you right or wrong, just like you are trying to shout somebody down with YOUR OPINION.

 

[/quote']My attacks? Because I choose to say what are saying is in all likehood false it's an "attack"?

 

And you're trying to push your opinion of Tone Pros as a fact, when in reality you have no factual basis for your perceived improvement other than your ears, which human hearing "memory" has been proven to be poor.

 

More sustain? Really now, you are hoping and wishing but have no proof, not one shred of evidence of that.

 

And playability, how the hell does a tailpiece or bridge replacement improve "playability"?

 

Please explain the EXACT playability improvement you're expirencing, other than a warm, fuzzy feeling because you think you've upgraded something :D

 

$5,000 PRS...so what, $500 Kelly guitars have them too.

 

 

As far as your 25 years of building guitars...though it means nothing let me just say I've quite a few more years than that on you FWIW.

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No question. In fact' date=' I think replacing a poor quality bridge & tailpiece will improve the tone more than swapping pickups in a lot of cases.[/quote']Other than a broken or defective part, I fail to see the ability of tone improvements of replacing a bridge or tailpiece.

 

Example...The old ABR style was nothing to talk about yet the Gibsons sporting them are in no way sonically handicapped by them.

 

And the weight issue, again, one side of the fence wants to claim sonic improvment by a lightweight tailpiece, the other camp claims sonic improvments by a heavier one. Which is it?? Seems to me again to be a drinking of the koolaid by both camps.

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While I somewhat agree with you about TonePros & hype' date=' they are not the same as the stock Gotoh bridges. That's not to say Gotoh doesn't make the TonePros for them (I've heard they do but can't claim it as fact), there are obvious differences:

 

1) The 6 intonation screws on the Gotoh have small philips heads and are held in place by hex nuts on the opposite side. TPs have large slotted heads and no hex nuts.

 

2) The saddles are different sizes, if you buy Graphtech saddles for a Gotoh, they won't fit on a TP.

 

3) Gotoh bridges are solid on the bottom (and say Gotoh Japan). TP bridges have no metal underneath the saddles, you can see the guitar body through the bridge.

 

Here's a Gotoh:

 

 

 

 

Now I'm not saying that one is better than the other, just that they're not the same. Personally, I use Gotoh most of the time. If I have some TPs hanging about, I will use them. Both are good, but to be honest, bolting down the bridge is a pain when you have to do adjustments. But as far as the tail piece goes, it is nice that it doesn't fall off and ding the guitar. Even so, I prefer the Gotoh aluminum tailpiece. [/quote']

 

I don't dispute the obvious differences you've posted but about five years ago when this subject first came up in this/the old forum there was absolutely no differences between the two bridges aside from the holes. Tonepros even became involved in the forum discussion and obviously changed the source or are using a different model bridge because they were called on the fact that they were charging over fifty bucks for a nineteen dollar bridge with two set screws tapped into it. We've both lived through a lot of hype jobs I'm sure (Do you remember "Nashville Straights"...strings that came in a long cardboard box because winding them up supposedly killed guitar string tone? ) Tonepros has also become big enough to have their own hardware models spec'ed for them..they could now be tapped at the factory for all I know. I just don't buy into it...I've been through steel plates on the headstock, brass nuts, bridges and everything else. I also think there's been a plethora of buzz words and marketing-speak that has entered into the guitar vocabulary such as "long tenon" and or "scatter-wound pickups" and while these things did contribute to the end result, the sum of the parts will never equal the whole. I think guitar players are going to always search for that magical tone, that holy grail and because they are there's always going to be someone coming up with something to sell to them whether it's a stomp box that guarantees six of Clapton's most famous tones in one box or that one element of construction or materials such as a light weight tail piece by itself will have significant tonal impact. In conjunction with all of the other factors, perhaps, but to take two or three minute details, apply them to something otherwise ordinary and mundane and expect to re-create iconic tone is a bit optimistic. If you and any other purchaser of Tonepros products are satisfied with the product I guess that's all that matters. I just don't happen to buy it...any more than I think if I pay a hundred bucks for a 1969 glass Coriciden bottle I'm going to play slide like Duane...but there's people out there selling them..and people out there buying them.

 

...and Al's your uncle.

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None of this is made up. If you want to tell me that my guitars were **** before the tonepros' date=' that's your opinion. How many guitars do you have that have a tonepros system? My bet is none. I am telling this from experience. My original starement was that the tonepros are much better than the stock bridge/tail.

I have been building guitars for 25 years. I am telling you flat out, these systems II give more sustain and playability than the stock units.

 

As far as the gotoh/tonepros thing goes ok, I buy that. But don't tell me that thay are not better than the stock bridge/tail. I have the proof in 4 kickass epi's. If they were not better than the stock items, I would not have changed it.

 

As far as these being installed on cheap guitars I guess a $ 5,000 PRS would be a cheap guitar to you.

 

I have the guitars that play better with these items. I am NOT making this stuff up.

 

BTW, I don't think name calling here is the way to go, brainwashed, naive, drank the koolaid, etc...

 

Most of us here really do have an idea of what we are doing. Your attacks don't make you right or wrong, just like you are trying to shout somebody down with YOUR OPINION.

 

[/quote']

 

My reference to "brainwashed" was a response to it having been said about me in another post.

 

and Al's your uncle.

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Mr. Fields:

You have your opinion, I have mine. I actually happen to OWN the items. I actually play these guitars.

 

Again, Nobody is ever going to take you seriously if you continue your higher attitude. If you want to think in your mind that these tonepros are crap, I will not argue with your opinion.

 

Go ahead and try to force your opinion on everybody else. People will stop listening to you after awhile.

 

As far as I'm concerned, I'm done trying to debate this with you. You like cheap parts, I like expensive parts. I build my guitars to MY specifications. I am sure that if you played one, you would understand what I'm talking about. I have no shortage of customers, and peers, that share my opinion of these tonepros items OVER STOCK items, which, again, was my original point. You would know this if you weren't trying so hard to force your opinion on us.

 

FWIW, your experience means ziltch. Critizing my ear is insulting. You don't know me. I am a professional studio player. I am not a rep for tonepros, I just know quality when I see it. I would rather build a great epiphone, than buy an off the rack Gibson. Again, this is opinion. Others would buy the off the rack Gibson. You don't see any of us shouting anybody down for their opinion, do you? My suggestion is to go back and play your Hello Kitty Squire and leave the opinions to people that know what they are talking about. Your continued attacks are not improving your position here.

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Mr. Fields:

You have your opinion' date=' I have mine. I actually happen to OWN the items. I actually play these guitars.

 

Again, Nobody is ever going to take you seriously if you continue your higher attitude. If you want to think in your mind that these tonepros are crap, I will not argue with your opinion.

 

Go ahead and try to force your opinion on everybody else. People will stop listening to you after awhile.

 

As far as I'm concerned, I'm done trying to debate this with you. You like cheap parts, I like expensive parts. I build my guitars to MY specifications. I am sure that if you played one, you would understand what I'm talking about. I have no shortage of customers, and peers, that are of my opinion of these items OVER STOCK items, which, again, was my original point.

 

FWIW, your experience means ziltch. Critizing my ear is insulting. You don't know me. I am a professional. I am not a rep for tonepros, I just know quality when I see it. My suggestion is to go back and play your univox jr. and leave the opinions to people that know what they are talking about. Your continued attacks are not improving your position here. [/quote']You talk around the questions I have posed and have as of yet given no good, factual evidence to support your claim.

 

As far as me owning Tone Pros, I was involved in a test of them many years back when they came out. 2 of my customers wanted them installed so I got them and installed them, I felt/heard no difference in the sustain, playability or tone. The customers "thought" there was an improvement, this got me thinking. I ended up doing a test with them, puting the Tone Pros on and off several times and having them play their guitars, at the end of the day neither guy could say with confidence that there really was any improvement.

 

As far as your attack on me and "cheap parts" ...well in all likelihood chances are I have owned guitars worth vastly more than you ever have.

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Mr. Fields:

You have your opinion' date=' I have mine. I actually happen to OWN the items. I actually play these guitars.

 

Again, Nobody is ever going to take you seriously if you continue your higher attitude. If you want to think in your mind that these tonepros are crap, I will not argue with your opinion.

 

Go ahead and try to force your opinion on everybody else. People will stop listening to you after awhile.

 

As far as I'm concerned, I'm done trying to debate this with you. You like cheap parts, I like expensive parts. I build my guitars to MY specifications. I am sure that if you played one, you would understand what I'm talking about. I have no shortage of customers, and peers, that are of my opinion of these items OVER STOCK items, which, again, was my original point.

 

FWIW, your experience means ziltch. Critizing my ear is insulting. You don't know me. I am a professional. I am not a rep for tonepros, I just know quality when I see it. My suggestion is to go back and play your univox jr. and leave the opinions to people that know what they are talking about. Your continued attacks are not improving your position here. [/quote']You talk around the questions I have posed and have as of yet given no good, factual evidence to support your claim.

 

As far as me owning Tone Pros, I was involved in a test of them many years back when they came out. 2 of my customers wanted them installed so I got them and installed them, I felt/heard no difference in the sustain, playability or tone. The customers "thought" there was an improvement, this got me thinking. I ended up doing a test with them, puting the Tone Pros on and off several times and having them play their guitars, at the end of the day neither guy could say with confidence that there really was any improvement.

 

As far as your attack on me and "cheap parts" ...well in all likelihood chances are I have owned guitars worth vastly more than you ever have.

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Mr. Fields:

You have your opinion' date=' I have mine. I actually happen to OWN the items. I actually play these guitars.

 

Again, Nobody is ever going to take you seriously if you continue your higher attitude. If you want to think in your mind that these tonepros are crap, I will not argue with your opinion.

 

Go ahead and try to force your opinion on everybody else. People will stop listening to you after awhile.

 

As far as I'm concerned, I'm done trying to debate this with you. You like cheap parts, I like expensive parts. I build my guitars to MY specifications. I am sure that if you played one, you would understand what I'm talking about. I have no shortage of customers, and peers, that share my opinion of these tonepros items OVER STOCK items, which, again, was my original point. You would know this if you weren't trying so hard to force your opinion on us.

 

FWIW, your experience means ziltch. Critizing my ear is insulting. You don't know me. I am a professional studio player. I am not a rep for tonepros, I just know quality when I see it. I would rather build a great epiphone, than buy an off the rack Gibson. Again, this is oipinion. Others would buy the off the rack Gibson. You don't see any of us shouting anybody down for their opinion, do you? My suggestion is to go back and play your Hello Kitty Squire and leave the opinions to people that know what they are talking about. Your continued attacks are not improving your position here. [/quote']

 

I'm not going to tell you what to do or try to make you look like a fool since you're really doing a bang up job on your own but...I happen to know Mr. Fields and have known him for a long time and I can tell you that what's gone down between you two is nothing compared to what's gone down between Mr. Fields and myself...and as many times as we've been at each others throats and called each other every name in the book and went tooth and nail for days...there is no one here whose opinion and experience I respect more than his and you couldn't put his strings on when it comes to guitars so keep on talking because you really talk a good game but Sonny Jim...you're not in high school here any more...and he's been really patient with you so far... and I've seen your list of guitars and I know what he has so let me say you'd be well advised not to go there..I'm not fighting Mr. Fields battles for him but you don't want to go there...trust me..Just some friendly advice..

 

...and Al's your uncle.

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