What makes epi pups sound cheap?

[theeges]

Don't get me wrong, I actually like the sound of my Dot studio pups. But I read so many reviews on how cheap they supposedly sound and no actual answer for why, other than they are made in a foreign country. Is the copper wire they use in them a different kind of copper than Seymour Duncan uses? Are the bobbins a different type of plastic? Do the alnico magnets have different properties? I am sick of reading that epi pups are garbage with no explanations why. Could someone tell me please?

[Guest Silence Dogood]

I don't know what you're reading, but ignore it. The P-ups in my E/LP Classic Plus are the same used in many of the Gibbys (as if that matters to me), and they sound fantastic. So just enjoy your guitar and ignore the chatter from the great unwashed masses of idiots on the internet (hmmm... like me? )

[dubstar]

"The P-ups in my E/LP Classic Plus are the same used in many of the Gibbys "

 

regardless of what you think they sound like, that is not true...

[TheX]

Some of them are alright but the mini's in my Firebird VII were pure crap. I've heard that the ones in the Firebird V are better. GFS to the rescue.

[theeges]

Ok so there are 2 that say they don't like the sound, that's fine but what I am asking is what is the physical difference between epis and "good" pickups. I have already read enough stories of how people don't like them, and they sound like crap. I want to know what is lacking in the pickup... the lack of tone is an extremely general reply, I am asking for a physical property of the components that is substandard as compared to other pickups. # of windings, diameter of wire, consistency of materials used in production. these are what I want to know, not that the pup is weak, toneless, or crap. That info is useless to me. I understand I may come off as sounding like an ***, but I am trying to understand why a pickup that uses the same components as another "good" pickup sounds "like crap" but the other sounds good. I understand you get different tones from # of windings, diameter of wire, and magnet type, but dont quite understand why a pickup from epiphone using the same specs as a pickup from Gibson can sound different. Sorry for the long rant, I am honestly not trying to flame people who are trying to help me., even though it may sound like it. Thanks

[RotcanX]

Excellent question. I'd love to have an hour or two to talk with Mr. Duncan and have him explain point by point why Epiphone pickups are typically mediocre or worse compared to so many aftermarket models including those made by Gibson.

 

There's a guy that makes pickups down in the States, and his company name is 'Voodoo Pickup's'. Yes, with the spurious apostrophe; apparently he registered it that way. Anyway, that name answers your question in one word.

 

It's not just about the plastic in the bobbins or the magnet material or the size and number of turns of wire. Firstly there is some expertise in how the magnets are made and or magnetized. Then, from what I understand, there is the method of winding the coils. You need to get the right amount of 'scramble' when you're winding them. Apparently there has to be some gaps among the coils which enable a stronger magnetic field to be induced in them. Or something like that. But basically it's a tricky process to do it right and it requires time and technique; both of which are probably dispensed with in the effort to make Epiphone pickups for a particular cost.

 

The guy from GFS posted a really good explanation of the time and effort it took him to get the company in Korea that makes his pickups to do it the 'correct' way; apparently it took two years of training and trial and error. Unfortunately that thread turned into a pissing match between a couple of forum members and it got pulled, a great shame.

[Biff]

To me all the Epiphone humbuckers have a very similar sound to them, too bad I don't like the tone.

 

To get some idea what the difference might be here's a clip of Jay's interview somewhere...

 

"The idea behind the Mean 90 was to get a more vintage P90 tone- so we went with a fairly accurate wide and flat P90 coil, two Alnico magnets, a non ferrous German Silver baseplate- but we slightly overwind the coil and slightly “age” the magnets- The result is a humbucker sized P90 that sounds warmer and fuller than the competition, but still retains the beautiful shimmering high end and mid presence- Oh yeah- they’re all under $40 each. We’ve had a devil of a time getting these right, and they are by far the most expensive to produce, but now they’re here and they sound quite good!"

 

I don't think Epiphone comes even close with their materials etc.

[hbucker]

I think Epi pickups are fine, just not great. Your opinion is all that matters.

 

If I were making a pickup to be... cost effective... I would start by using cheaper magnets and wire. Components that do the job but that don't require a real tight tolerance or testing. Are they alnico magnets? Good enough for me. Is it pickup wire? Good enough! Let's get them into production.

 

Higher end makers are much more critical of the magnets, wire, etc. to insure that the voicing, output, harminics, etc. are close to exactly what they want in any given model.

[RotcanX]

If I were making a pickup to be... cost effective... I would start by using cheaper magnets and wire. Components that do the job but that don't require a real tight tolerance or testing. Are they alnico magnets? Good enough for me. Is it pickup wire? Good enough! Let's get them into production.

 

There you have it; the formula for a lackluster pickup.

[Dave]

I think the topic is right on. There isn't enough discussion about WHY, technically, that pickups differ. All we can say is that there's a nuance that we latch onto and that little difference creates a market for XYZ pickups. Personally, I think that Epi pickups aren't bad at all. I prefer Duncans because they are proven performers. I had to put on a set of studio headphones to hear the difference in the web page samples.

 

There are probably half a dozen makes and models that I would like equally as well as my Duncans, but will I spend several hundred dollars to try them? The answer is no, I won't. So I bought the safe choice.

 

Billy Gibbons has about 25 Les Pauls that were purchased in his quest to find a backup for "Pearly". He says that they all sound close, but no cigar. The combination of the wood, the pickup windings, and the fit of all the parts add up to make a special guitar. That's why we all recommend that prospective buyers try half a dozen of the same guitar at a large store to find the "right" one. You know it when you play it.

 

I'm sure that pickup manufacturers have a secret technique that makes their pickups sound the way they do, and there's probably someone who could hear differences in random samples pulled from the line. But, they are all made "the same way" and some, like the early PAFs, came out with a few extra turns of wire and became "golden". Like Rotcanx said, it's Voodoo...

[TWANG]

modern winding machines don't do the sloppy job of yesteryear.. and that sloppy job of winding mostly just meant that different pups coming off the machine would sound different from each other.

that is, you can't get the machine to wind them poorly consistently.

 

baseplate material should only make a difference in it's magnetic propertys.

wire guages and quality can make a difference.

magnets, too, can be cheaply made.

number of turns of wire changes output, and messes with tone as well.

pole pieces are a consideration as well.

 

I've only read Donald Brosnac book Guitar Electronics. it's all I've ever needed to understand enough to do what I want to do.

I'm sure if I reread the book looking for this kind of idea, I'd find my answer.

 

There was voodoo attached to the zebra pups.. when in fact Gibson just ran out of black bobbins and dumped the white ones in the bin.. so some pups showed up with mismatched colors.

 

The voodoo around sloppy windings is, as I said, inconsistent, though overwind has something to do with it.

Pup makers try to avoid the air gaps.

 

So for me, epi uses chinese made wire.. may be up to spec, may not..

and same for everything else..

there could be small things here and there I simply don't know.. about magnet construction, about how parts fit, even,

though it seems simple enough just looking at them.

 

One thing I've noticed is the lp 100 and g 310 pups have a definate dead low e on them.. so there's something funky about the response.

I think I'll reread some of my book and look for a clue.

[garyelcrrt1281733995]

With no evidence but my ears, I thnk Epi's pups are set up to produce as loud an overdriven sound as possible, with no consideration for anything else. I saw this because every OEM pup I've ever heard was:

 

1) Very loud

2) Compressed but better sounding at louder volumes

3) Thin and fizzy at neutral tone settings UNLESS overdriven

4) Overresponsive to treble (i.e., its either there or its not, no sweet spot)

5) Muddy and dull at low volume levels overdriven

[Ron G]

I took one of my Epi pickups apart - the insides were a very sloppy affair. Rough, unpolished parts, misalignments, uneven wax. I think these and other fine points are the difference between Epi pickups and better ones. I agree with Gary that the Epi pickups are biased on the "hot" side for the overdrive crowd - I suspect that is the biggest reason they're OK for some, crap to others.

[Nickblues1]

I have a set of EPI Classic 57's in my Dot that, after lowering them, sound really good. I really don't know about the other type of pickups EPI makes so I can't say what they sound like.

 

I would like to say that with modern machinery pickups are most likely better that they were in the 50's and 60's.

[RotcanX]

The thing about the Dot is that they don't pop that execrable 'hot' bridge pickup into them. The regular Alnico Classics are merely mediocre so the Dot tends to sound pretty good, comparatively speaking. The thing is, it's harder to make a hot pickup and keep good tone and the Classic Plus Epi pickup doesn't pull it off; however I guess a lot of Epi players are using so much gain that any subtlety is lost anyway. At least that's what I see a lot of the time when guys try out Epis here.

[captmidnight]

I have said this before, I don't know if I got lucky with the p/u's in my LP studio..but I like how they sound.

Maybe it was due to a few extra wraps or a few less wraps..maybe the magnets are a little stronger or weaker..maybe the open humbuckers not having the cover on them has something to do with it? I do know they sound darn good. I must have gotten lucky with these, they have a nice clean sound and when you crank em up a nice over driven/distorted sound without that "muddy" sound.

 

Maybe sometimes even with less expensive pick ups, all the planets and stars line up just right and you get that special "tone/sound" . I read an article about before you go to changing out the stock pups you should try adjusting the height of the p/u's, maybe change out the caps and pots and THEN if you can't find the tone you are wanting think about swapping the pick ups out. A very good idea IMHO.

Capt

[alfsboy]

The Dot pickups are "OK",a bit muddy .You realize this when you drop in other makes of pickup .I put in a set of Tonerider Rocksongs and they are just better ,more toneful , clear or dirty .Its an immediate effect ,like replacing the crap fittings .They are OK until you fit the real thing like Gotoh or others .The tuners are OK until you fit Grover Deluxe ,then you realize how much better they are .

I am sure if you did all this and threw in a Gibson 335 body and neck you would have one hell of a Dot !!! but you would probably still have to give it a fret dress to get a nice low action.If you are happy with your Dot ,why worry .

LOL

[es-295]

Not sure about their humbuckers but the P90s in the Casino and Gold Top Les Paul and the ES-295s sound mighty good to me. They don't sound cheap at all. I used to have an Epiphone Sheraton I bought new when I was very young in 1989 and the pickups were horrible but remember that was almost 20 years ago so I can't really say if the newer humbuckers are lousy but I'm sure they improved them too.

[TWANG]

I liked the humbucks in my lp studio too. but I"m not a humbuck guy. so in went p90s.

I just stuck those in the g310.. which had ceramics .. and it was 100% better.

 

and cap changes. no matter what many may say.. different values for different uses and ears.. pots caps and wiring can make tonal changes for the better.

[theeges]

Thanks for all the replies everyone! I will keep the stock pups in the Dot as it just sounds too good to take them out. I have in the past replaced pickups in guitars without really giving the stock ones a chance. From JB's and Jazzes to Alnico II pro's to Tone Zones, I've used about half of what Seymour Duncan sells, and a few Dimarzio's looking for the ultimate do all tone machine and have come to a conclusion after 30 years or so. Every guitar has its own tone whether good or bad (to our ears at least), and it is up to our fingers to make that guitar sound good. Not the pickup, cap, pot, etc. If I put a JB, 500k pot, and .022 cap into every guitar I have, then they are all going to sound somewhat the same. Where's the variety in that? If you give Clapton 5 different cheap guitars and listen to him play, his tone would knock you out because it comes from him... not his guitar. He just plays the guitars that are his personal favorites, like we all do (if personal income dictates). I would like to have Claptons level of excellence, although I may never get there, I will have fun trying to get as much tone out of my guitars as possible! Once again thanks for your replies! It is much appreciated!.....now I'm gonna tear apart an alnico II pro and switch the magnet with my epi pup to see what it sounds like!

[gripweed]

I liked the hotCH in my LP standard, but I didn't care for the pickups in my Dot or my V. I think my V needs new pots and caps. Don't forget the impact of those in the sound your guitar gets. There are many factors in the construction of pickups that can contribute to the sound. Wind, wire (insulation, size, quality etc.) and wax all affect tone. IIRC, Epi pickups are heavily potted, which can affect the tone.

 

If you like the pickups, keep 'em. If not, changing them can make the Epis sound great. The key can really be finding the right pickup for the right guitar. Sometimes people think that the pickups make the tone, but you can't polish a turd.

[Nickblues1]

I usually try to make the existing pickups sound as good as possible before I switch them out. It is not unusual for me to mess with the pickups on a guitar for three or four months before deciding to switch.

 

I don't think that is is all the pickups fault. Sometimes you just get a guitar that will not sound good with anything in it.

[rpach10115]

Here's a good one: For no reason, I put an Epiphone PU in a Gibson LP custom, and it sounded much better than it did in the guitar that it was originally in!

 

There was some difference in tone, mostly highs, than the 490R it replaced, but still sounded good.

Not as much difference as you would think

Go figure.

[garyelcrrt1281733995]

That would certainly seem to support Spud's contention that good tone wood is important!

[Ricochet]

Here's a good one: For no reason' date=' I put an Epiphone PU in a Gibson LP custom, and it sounded much better than it did in the guitar that it was originally in!

[/quote']

 

I like that way of thinking. Some day I will put a $300 dollar humbuckerset in a $200 Les Paul copy.