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Why VOS, to get what should be done, anyway?


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Why is it, that we have to pay CS prices, to get

what Gibson used to make as "Standard"....VOS'

finishes, long neck tenons, correct beveling (serfs)

on SG's. People here (on this forum...myself included)

have lamented that fact for a long time. I read a

comment, by Paul Reed Smith, that said they don't

have a "Custom Shop," they ARE the Custom Shop,

in that every guitar they make, regardless of price point,

is the way it should be, from the beginning.

I'm not a PRS person, at all, don't own one...

but, it made me wonder if they can do it,

why doesn't Gibson make ALL their guitars

"the right way?" Instead of having to pay CS prices

to get that? The technology would seem to allow

for that kind of standardization. Then, let the CS

be what it should be...a shop that makes real

Custom guitars...special orders, one of kinds, etc.

 

And Epi's, too...let's get back to proper knob placement,

beveling, and bindings, on models that should have them,

and don't, currently.

 

CB

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Why is it' date=' that we have to pay CS prices, to get

what Gibson used to make as "Standard"....VOS'

finishes, long neck tenons, correct beveling (serfs)

on SG's. People here (on this forum...myself included)

have lamented that fact for a long time. I read a

comment, by Paul Reed Smith, that said they don't

have a "Custom Shop," they ARE the Custom Shop,

in that every guitar they make, regardless of price point,

is the way it should be, from the beginning.

I'm not a PRS person, at all, don't own one...

but, it made me wonder if they can do it,

why doesn't Gibson make ALL their guitars

"the right way?" Instead of having to pay CS prices

to get that? The technology would seem to allow

for that kind of standardization. Then, let the CS

be what it should be...a shop that makes real

Custom guitars...special orders, one of kinds, etc.

 

And Epi's, too...let's get back to proper knob placement,

beveling, and bindings, on models that should have them,

and don't, currently.

 

CB

[/quote']I think you already know the answer. It's all about the money, money money. As long as folks will pay, that's the way Gibson will sell.

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Why is it' date=' that we have to pay CS prices, to get

what Gibson used to make as "Standard"....VOS'

finishes, long neck tenons, correct beveling (serfs)

on SG's. People here (on this forum...myself included)

have lamented that fact for a long time. I read a

comment, by Paul Reed Smith, that said they don't

have a "Custom Shop," they ARE the Custom Shop,

in that every guitar they make, regardless of price point,

is the way it should be, from the beginning.

I'm not a PRS person, at all, don't own one...

but, it made me wonder if they can do it,

why doesn't Gibson make ALL their guitars

"the right way?" Instead of having to pay CS prices

to get that? The technology would seem to allow

for that kind of standardization. Then, let the CS

be what it should be...a shop that makes real

Custom guitars...special orders, one of kinds, etc.

 

And Epi's, too...let's get back to proper knob placement,

beveling, and bindings, on models that should have them,

and don't, currently.

 

CB

[/quote']

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Why is it' date=' that we have to pay CS prices, to get

what Gibson used to make as "Standard"....VOS'

finishes, long neck tenons, correct beveling (serfs)

on SG's. People here (on this forum...myself included)

have lamented that fact for a long time. I read a

comment, by Paul Reed Smith, that said they don't

have a "Custom Shop," they ARE the Custom Shop,

in that every guitar they make, regardless of price point,

is the way it should be, from the beginning.

I'm not a PRS person, at all, don't own one...

but, it made me wonder if they can do it,

why doesn't Gibson make ALL their guitars

"the right way?" Instead of having to pay CS prices

to get that? The technology would seem to allow

for that kind of standardization. Then, let the CS

be what it should be...a shop that makes real

Custom guitars...special orders, one of kinds, etc.

 

And Epi's, too...let's get back to proper knob placement,

beveling, and bindings, on models that should have them,

and don't, currently.

 

CB

[/quote']

 

I'm in complete agreement, CB. The only justification is $$$$ and an avenue to attract new players. I'm one of the few here that would love to see Gibson, bring back (and Epi do it more) the factory 2nds. Not have them float to all the shops on ebay to be repaired and then offered but bring back the days when you could get them from authorized dealers only. I had some seconds back in the day that were a fraction of the cost of new and many, after extensive searching, was hard pressed to find a "blem" anywhere. I would personally rather have a quality Second than a studio version. While i understand the theory behind studio models, what about the rest of us that need a break on the cash but may not do studio work or what ever but still want the cosmetic accutriments ?

 

I'm not a prs fan personally and I live in Md and while their statement is noble and is the correct thing to say, i don't really buy it. They're obviuosly not talking about their overseas operation. I've played many of their guitars at a huge used shop in this area and have never found one I would even considering owning.

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Yeah, I know...I've never been a PRS guy, either. I only referenced that statement,

to get some thought going, as to (1) why we pay a pretty high premium, on "lesser"

Gibson (if the CS/VOS is the bench mark), and (2) why they don't make them all that way?

I could see a cost differentail, for different finish options (which is what they should do, IMHO)

but keep the actual physical "specs" the same, throughout the line! Correct bevels,

body contours, fret work, long neck tenons, etc., etc. Then if you are the REALLY picky,

and/or "Well healed" customer that doesn't want ANY kind of "standard" issue...GET a

CS, built only for you, model! But, for those of us, who love the old Gibson's specs, and

have lamented that decline, for years...bring it back, to the WHOLE line...not just some

specialty, for marketing purposes. It would seem (to me, anyway) to be more cost effective

to Gibson, to "standardize" the specs. But, that's just me, I guess?

 

Epiphone, especially with the new factory in China, could easily tool up for correct specs,

(and should have, from the beginning), so that their offerings are the best Epi's (outside

of the Elitists) offered! "It doesn't cost anymore to do it right (from the beginning),

but it costs a lot, to do it over!"

 

Anyway...just some thoughts.

 

CB

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$

 

Mr. Smith makes an interesting case... but have you priced a PRS lately?

 

Some of the VOS stuff is just more expensive. For example, look at the TRC. At a certain point, Gibson switched to a molded TRC to save money. However, in the search for 100% authenticity, the VOS guitars have a TRC that has been cut from a slab of plastic, like they used to do it. However this costs a lot more since there's labour involved.

 

VOSTRC.jpg

 

However it doesn't make the guitar better, it just makes it more authentic.

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This is the exact question i asked myself when the eric clapton es-335 came out the price was a cs price yet the original eric sold had no modifications it just had some wear and a holy krishna sticker. wat i didnt understand was why did they need to make a big deal be hind making this guitar when thet should have files showing wat material they used then. only thingl i could understand them making a big deal of is the neck and the worn spots. But i figured it out people want a guitar that they think will make them sound like that guitarist and a guitar that has a story behind it.

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Well, what you say, may be true RotcanX...It just seems to me, that when people

really get serious, about playing and sussing out the differences, the CS or VOS

stuff, seems to be not only more authentic, to the old (originals), but better feeling, sounding,

and playing. IF...IF, that's the case, why wouldn't they use those specs, in the whole

line, for reputation's sake, if nothing else? Have more expensive versions, when related to the finishes,

etc., but NOT because of the overall spec's, build quality...those should be "standard!"

I don't know...maybe this is just MY (minor) "pet peeve" about Gibson?! Other's may not care.

I own a lot of Gibson guitars, too...some Vintage, and others not. But all were bought

before "VOS," and/or "correct" specs, were re-introduced. I still love 'em! Anyway....just

some food for thought?

 

CB

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Hey, I got one of those "Vintage specs" TRC, and it made my "non-vintage" Les Paul sound a LOT better! ;>)

NOT!! But, I must admit, I like the wider "white" edging...and so it "looks" better, in that way. I've seen

TRC's on old double cutaway Jr.'s that had what looked like the J-200 (really wide white outer rim), on them,

and that was very "Cool" looking, too. Might start a whole new "trend?" LOL!

 

CB

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Hey RotcanX' date=' I'll bet that $38 truss rod cover makes the guitar sound better, since it's handmade.8-[ [/quote']

 

I don't buy for a second that it is handmade. Just a smaller batch and wider cut setting on the CNC. Looks good nonetheless.

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This will probably upset some folk, but I'm very glad the specs have changed over the years. I don't particularly care for the baseball bat necks of the 50's Gibsons. I like the slim taper MUCH better. Why would I want to buy, let alone pay extra for, a guitar I don't have any desire to play? Ya'll forget. If they never changed them, they'd all be the same way those old persians (they invented the guitar, I seem to remember) used to make them. Oh, I see - its okay to have the changes YOU like? Or, maybe only changes made in America between 1776 and 1957? That's why they're different. Because they changed to meet new musical styles. Of course, some people still play the old styles of music. So why shouldn't Gibson make THOSE guitars, too? After all, you can still by a brand new, vintage recorder and go play in a baroque orchestra. The thing to do with a guitar you don't want is - DON"T BUY IT! When you want vintage specs; you buy used and rebuild, or you buy VOS or CS. Those are the only choices, since the market has moved on. Something else has larger demand, so you'll pay more to get the less popular product or its not worth the maker's time to make and sell it.

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I don't buy for a second that it is handmade. Just a smaller batch and wider cut setting on the CNC. Looks good nonetheless.

 

 

See, Bluesstringer....this is what I'm getting at, initially. Why, in the era of CNC machines,

can't Gibson and Epiphone just program the initial cutting beveling (On SG's, especially) to

be "VOS" for the whole line? Yeah, I know, I know, it's "commerce!" But, as many folks as

I have talked to, over the years, and even the few who dare to voice an opinion, here...all

say they'd LOVE for Epiphone and Gibson, both, to got back to those original specs, overall.

Seems to me, like they'd sell even MORE, and since it's a programming thing, anyway, why

not do it? No more cost involved in wider bevels, than lesser (to way lesser, on some Epi's)

as they exist now. ???

 

CB

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This is the exact question i asked myself when the eric clapton es-335 came out the price was a cs price yet the original eric sold had no modifications it just had some wear and a holy krishna sticker. wat i didnt understand was why did they need to make a big deal be hind making this guitar when thet should have files showing wat material they used then. only thingl i could understand them making a big deal of is the neck and the worn spots. But i figured it out people want a guitar that they think will make them sound like that guitarist and a guitar that has a story behind it.

What? "holy krishna"? I think you meant HareKrishna. Dude, that is funny on several different levels!

Too bad you don't have a clue as to why!

And there's, "wat", "be hind", "thet" ????????

You really should put the guitar down some time and learn how to spell 3rd grade words.

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This will probably upset some folk' date=' but I'm very glad the specs have changed over the years. I don't particularly care for the baseball bat necks of the 50's Gibsons. I like the slim taper MUCH better. Why would I want to buy, let alone pay extra for, a guitar I don't have any desire to play? Ya'll forget. If they never changed them, they'd all be the same way those old persians (they invented the guitar, I seem to remember) used to make them. Oh, I see - its okay to have the changes YOU like? Or, maybe only changes made in America between 1776 and 1957? That's why they're different. Because they changed to meet new musical styles. Of course, some people still play the old styles of music. So why shouldn't Gibson make THOSE guitars, too? After all, you can still by a brand new, vintage recorder and go play in a baroque orchestra. The thing to do with a guitar you don't want is - DON"T BUY IT! When you want vintage specs; you buy used and rebuild, or you buy VOS or CS. Those are the only choices, since the market has moved on. Something else has larger demand, so you'll pay more to get the less popular product or its not worth the maker's time to make and sell it.[/quote']

 

Valid points, but when they "move on" away from what made them, the more desirable, in the first place, for cost

cutting puposes (more than "innovations"), that's when we need to say "Whoa, Trigger!" I'll be the FIRST

to admit, I like what "I" like, and don't spend money on things I don't...Period!! On any product!

But, what I was really referring to, is the lack of even "modern" specs, seen on way too many Epiphones, that are touted to be "Gibson" specs! NOT!

Gibson owned, for sure...but too specs?! Only SOMETIMES! I (personally, so take it for just that) would just like to see them tighten up, on the details, a bit more! And...of course, quality hardware, pickups, and wiring/switches/pots,

etc.

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"You can't please everybody, so... ya got to please yourself."

 

-Ricky Nelson

 

Not everybody's gonna want VOS, so you save that for the cork-sniffers and the upper 3%'rs.

 

There's a reason why they changed the specs.. Obviously there was enough of a demand for those changes.. To start making ALL their guitars to VOS would be like shooting themselves in the foot..

 

I would like to see Epis closer to Gibby specs where needed, though..

 

And Gibson will never go back to letting 2nds fly.. That would be seen as a throwback to the bad old (Norlin) days... In some people's estimation, almost all the guitars they were making in the late 70s/early 80's were 2nds, whether the stamp was there or not.. Cutting up 2nds and exponentially increasing the prices were their way of cleaning up the Gibson image..

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Epiphone' date=' especially with the new factory in China, could easily tool up for correct specs,

(and should have, from the beginning) [/quote']

 

Even Gibson doesn't have the specs right all the time, take for example a true story I heard of VOS historics made before 1999, that they all had pickups in the wrong place! The bridge pickup on those guitars was 1/8" too far back towards the bridge.

 

The VOS pickguards that were used at the time were blueprinted in 1997 and left a gap between the pickups and the pickguard, revealing an error in the pickup placement. In 1999 they moved the pickup to its correct place for the first time and it has matched the pickguard ever since - on some models, anyway. Black beauties have had the same error even after 1999.

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Yeah, Biff....nothing would surprise me, there. I've seen $4000 Gibson's in shops with "orange peel" in the paint jobs!

What's up with THAT?! LOL! I guess...I'm bad at "projecting" my wants/desires spec wise, on others...who, often as

not, don't give a damn, one way or the other. LOL! So...whatever floats their boat, I guess? But, "I" have always felt...

I guess, mainly with SG's (if the truth be told) that the older, wider bevels/serfs were not only nicer looking but more

comfortable, to play, too. And, the "Tone" of (most) older '61-64 range, SG's...seemed (to me, anyway) to be a bit more

"edgy," in the best way. But, it may be pure "urban legend," and a poor (old) memory? LOL! So...forgive me (all) if I have

insensed anyone, or projected my preferences, on others! I still like that era, and always will. Apparently, I'm not alone,

based on the re-introduction of guitars, from same.

 

That brings up another question...maybe I'll post it? See what happens?

 

CB

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