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Long Neck Tenon...Needed or Not?


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I doubt Gibson did it without careful consideration, and I personally haven't had any issues with the short tenon necks. If the neck cost 50 bucks more to make because of the wood then we would be paying an extra 100 bucks for the guitar, that's not the reason.

 

Pretty simple really.

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The guitar makers, the men and women, hands on luthiers, who work in Nashville are the best in the world. The corporation that they work for dosen't know **** about what makes a guitar sound good. They are only interested in stockholder dividends and the bottom line. The corporation has no pride in their own product.

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The guitar makers' date=' the men and women, hands on luthiers, who work in Nashville are the best in the world. The corporation that they work for dosen't know **** about what makes a guitar sound good. They are only interested in stockholder dividends and the bottom line. The corporation has no pride in their own product. [/quote']

 

Well, certainly the luthiers would know and advise accordingly. But you think "Gibson" Corporate ignores that,

in favor of the "bottom line," regardless of how that might actually effect that "bottom line," long or short term,

huh? Could be, but it sure wouldn't make much sense, to ignore the people who build your product. But, having

lived in the "Real World," I know it happens! I (personally) have never had any issues (one way or the other)

with regard to "long, medium, or short neck tenons. But, others will swear there's a marked diffence in the tone and

sustain. So...??? So, I was just wondering if there's something to it, if it's "urban legend/mojo" or...what?

 

CB

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If the neck cost 50 bucks more to make because of the wood then we would be paying an extra 100 bucks for the guitar' date=' that's not the reason.[/quote']

If it cost Gibson an extra $50 at their manufacturing cost, I can assure you it would cost the consumer a lot more than $100 at retail.

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I believe that it probably was a cost cutting measure and that they did not believe, research or not, at the time, that tone would be negatively affected, at least is a way that was significant enough to effect their market share. All manufacturers will attempt as positive a spin as possible when making changes that they believe will cause attention form loyal buyers that will be perceived as problematic for the mass consumer, just as they will hype insignificant changes that don't actually have any real value but could be perceived as a plus with the right spin.

 

Maybe I'm naive in this regard but I believe, even if it is buried somewhere within the layers of beaurecracy, there remains some sense of corporate responsibilty to provide the buyer with a high quality product for the $$$$$ (value) even if we believe that it could/should be available at a fraction of the retail, and/or street price.

 

Wordy, Ain't I ??????? Bottom line, If it costs less to produce, they don't pass the savings on to the consumer, if it costs more, they DO pass on the increase of cost. If we don't buy it in sufficent #s, they drop the line, chnge the maket they sell to, or decrease quality to a level where their profit is the same or greater and the product will re-surge in sales. All with the spin that makes us believe it was our idea or a "good thing" for us.

 

I didn't answer the question, did I CB ????????

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Well, Bluesstringer...not exactly. ;>) But, valid points. It's hard, anymore, to know...really. It's a "Spin" world, and Gibson/Epiphone have their rightful place in it. They (naturally) will do what needs doing, to insure sales and profits. Having said that, I think they have come a LONG way (in a very positive direction), since the "dark days of the 70's!" It's not to say ALL "Norlin era" guitars were not good...some were exceptional! Too many, however, were almost

unrecognizable, as the "Gibsons" we knew, and loved, up to that point.

But, I am glad they are back on track, for the most part, in manufactuing...even if there are (always) some, that will "slip by," and reinforce the naysayers opinions, that the "old days" were the best! Consistency of

quality is far better, now.

 

As to "long neck tenons," I'd guess, there is some validity to tone/sustain claims, but with modern amps, it's almost a moot point. My Les Paul Classic, has PLENTY of (clean) sustain! Tone is so personal, that I'd say it has plenty of that, too...though, I'm sure, others would argue the point, ad nauseam...LOL! But..it's Fun!

 

I DO wonder, though, if it really IS a valid (and desired) feature, why they don't reinstate it, on ALL models,

CS or not? They certainly have no problem upping the prices, without the slightest provocation. ;>b

 

CB

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I think the biggest issue is the construction. It's more complicated than a short tenon and whether it improved tone has always been a point of discussion. Now I like to think good construction equals good tone, but in this case cost-effectiveness is clearly in favour of short tenon. The use of more wood is negligible and like said before. If it wasn't, be sure you'd see it reflected in Gibson's pricepoint.... Oh wait...

 

Bluesstringer..."corporate responsibilty"!?...:-({|=

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Yes... From what I've read' date=' it's easier to set the angle of a short tenon neck... The difference in length between a short and long tenon neck isn't really that great... I think any savings in material would be negligible.. I believe it's just a time saving measure.. [/quote']

 

Yep, on short tenon guitars you can rout the body before the neck is attached so above all it's definitely a time saving measure.

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If it cost Gibson an extra $50 at their manufacturing cost' date=' I can assure you it would cost the consumer a [i']lot[/i] more than $100 at retail.

 

I agree, and while I'm no fan of a $2-3,000 price tag for a guitar (as an avarge consumer) we can't forget how the pie is split. Based on my experience with acoustics, I am confident that the retailers margin is well above 40%. Don't know if its the same for the US electrics, but it would have to be noticing that Epi dots go for 40% off retail ($399 vs. $665 list)

 

But as I wonder how Gibson would make money on a guitar from China they sell for$399, I recall what a friend who is a buyer in retail clothing told me about a women's $200+ desinger label coat that was made in china for $15.

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I agree' date=' and while I'm no fan of a $2-3,000 price tag for a guitar (as an avarge consumer) we can't forget how the pie is split. Based on my experience with acoustics, I am confident that the retailers margin is well above 40%. Don't know if its the same for the US electrics, but it would have to be noticing that Epi dots go for 40% off retail ($399 vs. $665 list)

 

But as I wonder how Gibson would make money on a guitar from China they sell for$399, I recall what a friend who is a buyer in retail clothing told me about a women's $200+ desinger label coat that was made in china for $15.

 

 

 

[/quote']

 

Correction - EPI dots are not US Electrics, but the point is still the same. My bad.

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Bluesstringer..."corporate responsibilty"!?...8-[

 

Yes Ricochet, I do believe that long standing companies do intentionally have a position on corporate responsibility to their consumers. I'm not saying that this transfers to a lower price, but hopefully to a better product in many cases. I do believe that the short tenons were a cost issue primarily, not in terms of material cost, but in time = labor = production savings, again that didn't pass to the customer.

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"Cost Cutting Issue." Most seem to agree, there, right? So, is the reintroduction of long neck tenons, in custom shop and/or VOS guitars, just to remain "faithful" to the originals (which, of course would contribute to their higher costs, do to the increased labor costs, needed to do that), OR....because of all this discussion, over the years, of the "Mojo" that those longer tenons allegedly produced, in the older guitars....Just a "Marketing ploy?" I think, it's more to remain faithful to the originals...but, it's also something the marketing people can "exploit," to their advantage, too. Now...has anyone compared, say...a standard production SG or Les Paul to a VOS one, with the longer tenons, to find out, if there's anything to that "mojo?" And, if so...can you explain, exactly what that difference (really) is, and/or if it's worth the (substantial) extra charge...???

 

CB

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If you make that "...as cheaply as they think they can get away with." then I'm with you all the way.

 

+1. The price tags on the Custom Shop guitars are a good indicator what every Gibson would cost without cutting costs, most of which are labor and other manufacturing costs. The materials are not very different from the regular models, eg woods are graded and the best stuff sent to the CS.

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+1. The price tags on the Custom Shop guitars are a good indicator what every Gibson would cost without cutting costs' date=' most of which are labor and other manufacturing costs. The materials are not very different from the regular models, eg woods are graded and the best stuff sent to the CS.

[/quote']

 

Well, not so long ago, the CS guitars were at the price point, that the "standard issues" are...today! I don't

think your wages, cost of living raises (if you're lucky enough to get that), have gone up, accordingly?

Gibson, sometimes, feels like the OIL company of Guitar makers! Raise prices, just to get us used to them,

then cut costs, without lowering the prices, back...accordingly. Less than 2 years ago, you could buy a

"standard issue" Satin finished 335, for 13-1500 dollars...depending on where you shopped. Now,

1999, seems to be the least advertised price, for same. Did our wages (on average) go up the same

percentage?! I don't THINK so!!

 

CB

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The more people buy cheap Asian products instead of local products, the more they have to cut costs and raise the prices. I don't know if this is the case with Gibson, do the Epiphones and Gibsons compete for buyers (not likely for Custom Shop guitars) at all or are they at Gibson just greedy corporate f-holes (pun intended).

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Well' date=' not so long ago, the CS guitars were at the price point, that the "standard issues" are...today! I don't

think your wages, cost of living raises (if you're lucky enough to get that), have gone up, accordingly?

Gibson, sometimes, feels lick the OIL company of Guitar makers! . Less than 2 years ago, you could buy a

"standard issue" Satin finished 335, for 13-1500 dollars...depending on where you shopped. Now,

1999, seems to be the least advertised price, for same.

[/quote']

 

Well there is no point knocking a "for profit" American corporation. They are all in the

same boat, regardless of which guitar is made. Custom shop guitars carry a higher

price because there is a lot more handwork and attention to detail. Luthiers being

skilled craftspeople... (there may be ladies involved as well), expect a good salary

and benefits, so does the office staff, sales staff, shipping/receiveing people, etc.

The benefits, pension plan, holidays etc...require a tremendous markup on that

custom shop guitar...the dealersrequires their (assume 40% tacked onto the wholesale

price) and so on...so by the time that LP "special" is manufactured and shipped out the

loading dock..it's already expensive compared to a Chinese made..

 

Long tenon advantages...IMHO opinion, it's a marketing thing and every guitarists

search for the "holy grail" of sustain. Str*ts don't have any long neck tenons at

all..just 4 long screws/bolts and have lots of sustain...

I built a LP without any tenon at all and it has the about the same amount of

sustain as a LP studio with a short tenon. The bridge type,the scale and the wood

the body is made of have a lot more pronounced effect than what can be

expected from a longer tenon..which still has to be glued in.

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Not knocking Gibson any worse than any other "Corp!" They ALL want "Record" profits...seemingly. That's cool, if you

can get it, why not, huh? Gordon Gekko school of economics. But, in all fairness to Gibson, they're no worse than any

of the other's, that way. But, at some point, the average "Joe's" wages are going to have be able to "keep up," or

they'll (all) lose a pretty good market.

 

Anyway...back to long neck tenons. I too, have never notice any appreciable increase in sustain, or tone...from a long,

short, medium neck tenon! But, it has been disgussed, over and over again...usually to no real conclusion. So, I just

thought it might be fun, to see what you all thought/felt, one way or the other. My Strat does have good sustain, but no

where close, to my Les Paul! So...???

 

CB

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