Chinese Gibson Les Paul: If this is fake I'll take it...

[Guest]

 

The avarage american employee makes more money now' date=' adjusted for inflation, than they did before trade was opened to china, unemployment is lower.

 

China isn't a(declared) enemy of america, and even japan's idealism differs from our own.

Matter of fact, if you're a qualified luthier from a guitar manufacturer taht gets layed off, why can't you just open your own internet site and make custom wood/spec guitars for people? Don't have the skills? The chinamen deserves the job if you don't.[/quote']

 

Probably the most naive, uninformed post I've ever read here but fear not, the China bubble is about to pop (at the current rate of energy cost increases by mid 2009) just as every other emerging economy that began with a flourish (witness: Japan in the 70's vs. Japan in the mid 80's-Korea from the 80's to the 90's) has and as the price of transporting cheap Chinese goods increases and China become dependent upon the oil producing nations and their whims and China and other Asian countries who now subsidize their oil prices will no longer be able to do so the cost-benefit balance of foreign production will tilt back to where quality will out-weigh economy and the USA products will again become a bargain. It sounds like you've believed the globalization myth the Neocons have expounded in favor of short term grab and run profits against true long-term growth and prosperity. You see, China is actually more foreign energy dependent than the USA . They have to import their raw materials and export their production so they're going to be taking a double hit which of course will lead to world-wide inflation which in turn will close many global markets to the advantage of those countries with domestic raw material resources, strong production infrastructures and localized manufacturing ability. Enjoy it while you can, a huge change is coming. The era of Wal*Mart is coming to an end. Their prices have already increased about 15% in the past year and they keep going up and their explanation is "increased transportation costs" but it isn't the cost of transporting locally produced goods, it's the cost of shipping all that crap from China. What now seems to be a crisis as far as energy costs will do two things. 1. Make America, who is the world leader in technology, develop alternative energy sources and manufacturing processes thus reducing that dependence 2. Eventually return manufacturing to a

local level in the USA and North America creating long-term prosperity and true maximized employment rather than temporary appeasement to the lower middle class through the availability of cheap imported goods and an abundance of low paying, service-oriented jobs. I also expect to see Canadian-made Epiphone Elitist-level guitars in the next five years. You read it here first.

[Ricochet]

On the youtube videopage someone commented the replicas are made in the Epiphone factory in China. They're basically Epiphone Les Paul Customs. Solid mahogany, poly finish, Epi electronics, etc. Some pickups even say Epiphone stamped on the baseplates.

 

So I added a comment stating he talked complete nonsense, since the Epiphone factories in China ONLY make Epiphones. Certainly not Gibson-fakes.

 

Now he comments: Not true. SX guitars are made in that same factory. The factories in China are owned by the Chinese, NOT Gibson or Epiphone, so they can make anything they want in them. Other guitar companies subcontract to them as well.

 

What gives?

[sixfingers]

 

The avarage american employee makes more money now' date=' adjusted for inflation, than they did before trade was opened to china, unemployment is lower.

 

China isn't a(declared) enemy of america, and even japan's idealism differs from our own.

Matter of fact, if you're a qualified luthier from a guitar manufacturer taht gets layed off, why can't you just open your own internet site and make custom wood/spec guitars for people? Don't have the skills? The chinamen deserves the job if you don't.[/quote']

 

Coincidentally, I just received from my real estate trade organization, NAR, a spreadsheet of what they call the Housing Affordability Index. It shows average family income in one of the columns. It shows the average family income in 1989 (As far back as I have) as $34,213. The average income in 2007 is shown as $59,224. If you plug the 1989 number into an inflation calculator, based on government supplied CPI numbers, it shows that today's average is actually $59,272. So, if you believe the government numbers, you can say that American families have had a real wage decrease of .001%. And that's if you believe that the government supplied numbers.

Being that I'm new here, I certainly am loathe to get in arguments over such numbers. However, since I just received this information from the Nat'l Association of Realtors this morning, I had to do the math. There it is. Cheers.

[sixfingers]

 

I have no doubt that the guitar in the auction is authentic except that it isn't a 1967 but probably more like a 1968 or 1969. Why is this seemingly small difference of any importance? In 1968 the neck joints were changed on the Casino and its cousin' date=' the ES-330, moving the joint from the 16th fret to the 19th fret so that all Gibson/Epiphone thin line semis (both made along side one another in Kalamazoo at the time) would be standardized but it proved unpopular and the ES-330 went to having the original neck joint as an "option" in 1969 and the Casino was discontinued the following year when Epiphone production was moved to Japan. The thing is the 19th fret versions of these guitars don't have the premium or are as sought after as the original 16th fret versions. An original sunburst '65 Casino can fetch $4500+ while a later '68 with the 19th fret joint would be lucky to fetch half of that. The differences in the two version is arguable but in the vintage arena there's no argument, the 19th versions don't have the desirability or premium. What is probably happening is the seller has set a reserve reflecting a 16th joint version and no one is coming close to it knowing that it's the 19th fret version with the much lower value. Buying a recent Japanese-made Lennon reissue model is actually about the safest way to get 90% of the original guitar for a lot less money and an Elitist version can give you about 75% of the original for about a third of the cost of an original. If you aren't well-versed in the vintage market and aren't aware of the trends and dynamics it's probably best to stay with current models. While the vibe of mojo of the vintage stuff has a lot of appeal and can be intoxicating, whenever you're dealing with something 40+ years old there's a lot that can happen to that guitar in that time and it's not always readily apparent and as is pointed out here , two guitars can seem to be very similar while being quite different with very different values. If you do have the background and know your model history and their values and also how the vintage thing tends to work...a lot of lofty prices until it comes to the actual sale...vintage market is very soft right now and bargains can be had but the market is cluttered with non-exceptional instruments or oddities that tend to raise the average prices of the vintage pieces. Even so, if you don't have a feel for such things it's probably best to steer clear. There are modern instruments that offer the pleasures of these vintage instruments without the financial risk. The aforementioned Lennon reissues, the Terada-made Casinos of the 1990's and the Elitist instruments all come pretty close in fit and finish to the old stuff. Good luck.[/quote']

 

Many thanks for your learned response. I have been looking mostly at the Elitist Casinos, mostly for the reasons you mentioned. The John Lennon model would be great but they seem to command almost as much second hand as they do new. I'd like to find one close to me that I could check out and buy but they're few and far between. Sam Ash and other large retailers advertise them but say that they're "on order". How limited of an edition are these beauties? Thanks again.

[iansmitchell]

 

Probably the most naive' date=' uninformed post I've ever read here but fear not, the China bubble is about to pop (at the current rate of energy cost increases by mid 2009) just as every other emerging economy that began with a flourish (witness: Japan in the 70's vs. Japan in the mid 80's-Korea from the 80's to the 90's) has and as the price of transporting cheap Chinese goods increases and China become dependent upon the oil producing nations and their whims and China and other Asian countries who now subsidize their oil prices will no longer be able to do so the cost-benefit balance of foreign production will tilt back to where quality will out-weigh economy and the USA products will again become a bargain. It sounds like you've believed the globalization myth the Neocons have expounded in favor of short term grab and run profits against true long-term growth and prosperity. You see, China is actually more foreign energy dependent than the USA . They have to import their raw materials and export their production so they're going to be taking a double hit which of course will lead to world-wide inflation which in turn will close many global markets to the advantage of those countries with domestic raw material resources, strong production infrastructures and localized manufacturing ability. Enjoy it while you can, a huge change is coming. The era of Wal*Mart is coming to an end. Their prices have already increased about 15% in the past year and they keep going up and their explanation is "increased transportation costs" but it isn't the cost of transporting locally produced goods, it's the cost of shipping all that crap from China. What now seems to be a crisis as far as energy costs will do two things. 1. Make America, who is the world leader in technology, develop alternative energy sources and manufacturing processes thus reducing that dependence 2. Eventually return manufacturing to a

local level in the USA and North America creating long-term prosperity and true maximized employment rather than temporary appeasement to the lower middle class through the availability of cheap imported goods and an abundance of low paying, service-oriented jobs. I also expect to see Canadian-made Epiphone Elitist-level guitars in the next five years. You read it here first.[/quote']

 

I've been called borderline socailist, anarchist, and now neocon in the same day.

In all actuality, anarchist was the most flattering, but I'm a constitutionalist libertarian.

 

I didn't say china was going to last. I was saying that the "They took our jobs!" whiners need to find a a new way.

People have been finding new was for thousand of years, if everyone simply sat on their asses about how nobody would trade for their gathered berries when other started farming, society wouldn't exist.

Evolve.

 

If you can't make it without national, or multi-national cooperation, or the government babying you your whole life, from scholarships to pensions, then you need to find a new way, or deal with the fact society will leave you behind.

 

When united states labor becomes favorable again, I HIGHLY doubt it will return to the same multi-national cooperations who held the original jobs. If people have any foresight, they'll see they don't need them.

But, many, many people don't.

Ignorance is a sad state of affairs.

[iansmitchell]

 

Coincidentally' date=' I just received from my real estate trade organization, NAR, a spreadsheet of what they call the Housing Affordability Index. It shows average family income in one of the columns. It shows the average family income in 1989 (As far back as I have) as $34,213. The average income in 2007 is shown as $59,224. If you plug the 1989 number into an inflation calculator, based on government supplied CPI numbers, it shows that today's average is actually $59,272. So, if you believe the government numbers, you can say that American families have had a real wage decrease of .001%. And that's if you believe that the government supplied numbers.

Being that I'm new here, I certainly am loathe to get in arguments over such numbers. However, since I just received this information from the Nat'l Association of Realtors this morning, I had to do the math. There it is. Cheers.

[/quote']

 

Judge:

avarage size of new home in 1971 vs. avarage size of home in 2007.

2500 square foot increase.

 

Extravagance doesn't make us poorer, it just makes us less fulfilled.