mrjones200x Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 Is there much tonal difference between the two? Obviously the standard is louder at 15 watts but is it a better amp overall? I want an amp as loud as my Vox ad-30-vt but was told a 5 watt epi vlve junior wont match up to it know whwere near. I plan on buying the head and running it through my speaker in my vox if i get the valve junior or just buying the valve standard and using the stock speaker. How loud by ear would you guys say the junior is? Comparable to my Vox ad-30-vt ss amp? Last question now. Would i be better running the epi junior head through my vox speaker or buying the cab? Mine has a 10inch and the junior is 8 i think. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-theory Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 I cannot speak to the Vlv Standard, other than that it would be much closer to the output of your Vox than the jr. Your 30 watt Vox would be nearly twice as loud as the vjr. "Nearly," in that, in order to be officially twice as loud, the Vox would have to be 50 watts. That said, you'd definitely notice a marked difference in output between the two. If you're looking for something as loud as the 30 watt Vox, you want something besides the vjr. If you're shopping tube amps and want to drive the power tubes, look for something in the 18-22 watt realm, and you'll be very close. You need to define some basic points of consideration: 1. I would assume that you're tube amp shopping, based upon the fact that you're you've got a SS Vox, but you really didn't specify. 2. What is the tone that you're looking for? Clean? Crunchy? Gainy? Voxy? Fendery? Marshally? Other? 3. What type of music is it for? 4. Budget considerations (Actually, this is your FIRST consideration...you cannot move forward without first defining this one) Once you get those answered, you can start to delve into the specific characterstics of amps in the price range that you're looking at. Otherwise, it's very difficult for anyone to offer much to you, in terms of advice. Tone is subjective and varies entirely from person to person, and there are all types of amp architecture to meet those individual wants, but you have to decide for yourself what flavor suits you and your style before you can really begin zeroing in on anything. The only thing that you really can say at this point, based upon what you've offered, is that the vlv jr. isn't what you're looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copper1281734000 Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 The standard is only a little louder than the junior. So don't consider loudness when comparing the 2. The vox is (I think) only 7-8 decibels louder than the junior. Only 3 decibels louder than the standard. You say you want an amp as loud as the vox, but do you really ever turn the amp up that loud? Most people always want more wattage, and they never even turn an amp up past 2, so I don't think it's an issue. If you're that worried about the volume, try it at a store and see if it's loud enough for you. The junior combo cab is 8 inch. The extension cab is a 12 inch speaker. I think you should get the head and cab. From what I've heard, the standard is not as reliable as the current juniors because they only made one version, and the junior has had 3 versions. And from what I've heard others say, the standard and the specials are to dark sounding. I'm not speaking of first hand expeirience, just from what others have said. Have you ever experimented with the wattage knob on the back of your vox? That think can be VERY useful. The vox is not a ss amp, it's hybrid so it has one tube in it, and the wattage knob controls the output, so you can crank the tube up and get that sweet tube distortion from that amp. And as m-theory said above, we also need more info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyscaglyc Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 FWIW, I traded my Valve Standard toward a Blues Jr. The Epi had a great look but to me, it wasn't as Bright as I get out of the HR Deluxe . So, for a lower wattage (for the smaller gigs), the BJr was the logical choice. The perfect amp= Blues Jr in that great retro Epi cabinet! s/Vin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjones200x Posted July 28, 2008 Author Share Posted July 28, 2008 Yes tube amp shopping. Do use the vox at max when round my mates but not at home. would consider 5 watt for home if tone was real good compared to my vox. My vox sounds very thin on the high strings with no tone. Want a decent practice amp for home. can always buy a bigger amp later if i want loud loud loud but for now i want a quality sound. Sick of fizzy distortion and lack of tone Like the sounds of crunch and heavy distortion. Sort of Guns and roses ac/dc and as hard as halen ish, mainly 70's 80's rock era. Also wanna be able to achieve a nice warm blues tone. I have a boss DS-1 distortion pedal for overdrive if needed too. Budget all depends really. Can prob go up to about £300. So could buy junior head and run through my 10 inch vox for now or could buy junior head and cab. As long as the stock vox speaker is up to the tone/loudness ect. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjones200x Posted July 28, 2008 Author Share Posted July 28, 2008 Have you ever experimented with the wattage knob on the back of your vox? That think can be VERY useful. The vox is not a ss amp' date=' it's hybrid so it has one tube in it, and the wattage knob controls the output, so you can crank the tube up and get that sweet tube distortion from that amp. And as m-theory said above, we also need more info. [/quote'] More info now supplied. The vox is good but just cant manage a real warm blues tone and the distortion seems a little fizzy ect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strangedogs Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 I had a Vox - not a bad amp but like you said - IT LACKED for warm blues. I bought a V3 Combo and it does just what I wanted - warm tubeish blues and when cranked up it's BAD TO THE BONE. Don't let the stock 8" in the Combo fool ya' - it's got some amazing sound. I also use a 10" and a 12" cab (homemade) with mine but the stock 8" Eminence is great all by itself. Loud as hell too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricach Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 I'll weigh in here since I've got both. Out of the box a Standard is on the dark side, but with a couple jumper wires and one resistor you can have a very bright sounding box. Comparing this to a Jr I'd definantly go with the Standard for versatility. You can address the reliability issue(s) with a beefier PT and a couple more jumper wires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-theory Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 The vox is (I think) only 7-8 decibels louder than the junior An amp would have to be 50 watts in order to be 3 db louder than a 5 watt amp. 2 db is the point at which the human ear can detect perceptible volume increase. A 30 watt amp would be CLOSE to, but not quite 3db over a 5 watt amp. You would certainly notice a difference, especially in terms of headroom. The vox is not a ss amp, it's hybrid so it has one tube in it, and the wattage knob controls the output, so you can crank the tube up and get that sweet tube distortion from that amp It's a SS amp with a single tube preamp, and as such, the only thing you'll get from the tube is front-end distortion, which can be very fizzy, and has an entirely different sound and feel from power tube distortion. The description of tones that you're looking for seem to point in the Marshally direction. The price point that you're at really doesn't leave a whole lot of options, unfortunately. There are numerous new production amps in that price range, of course, but all have SOME issue that needs to be addressed, in order to have a truly solid, road-worthy amp with the tone that you're looking for. At the very least, I know of no current production amps in this price range that have adjustable bias, and all that I know of run the output tubes either way too hot or way too cold, resulting in harsh crossover distortion, mushy lows, non-descript highs, and of course, rapid tube consumption. None of them seem to have decent stock speakers, either. If you REALLY want to resolve your lack of tone issues, you should consider upping your budget. I don't know what the used market is like in your neck of the woods, but there are a plethura of yesteryear amps that would get you where you want to be, or would at least provide a highly favorable foundation upon which you could have a custom amp built. This isn't necessarily "cheap," but if you consider the amp as a lifetime investment, rather than a pair of shoes, it really isn't something unworthy of consideration. If you could find something like a 20 watt Traynor bass amp head from the 60's, you'd be well on your way. Bass amps are great, because the transformers are generally massive, and provide huge thump and crispness, as well as the build quality needed to take a real pounding. I can think of one particular boutique amp as well that is a simply astonishing amp in the 18 watt range, and it's priced very reasonably for a boutique creation, although it's made in the states, so I don't know what that means in terms of you getting your hands on one. A non-reverb head runs around $1150, and a 1x12 cab. from them is about $500. A combo is around the same price as head/cab. This probably isn't what you want to see, in terms of advice, but after 25 years of gigging, if there's any single thing that I can say that I've learned, it's that serious tone requires serious gear. There really aren't any shortcuts to this that I'm aware of, short of having someone hand you pro gear for next to nothing, as per the folklore stories of someone stumbling across a '57 Les Paul and a '59 Bassman for $100 at a garage sale somewhere (in a mythical dreamland!). Bottom line is, if you REALLY want to dial in "your tone," you're really going to need more than what you've got budgeted. Otherwise, be willing to compromise, and look at the various new prod. amps at that price point. You want something around 20 watts, in order to give you an overdriven tube amp output comparable to your 30 SS amp running within its headroom range (output is measured BEFORE distortion, and since SS amps suck when clipping while tube amps sing, a tube amp can push power beyond its measured output rating). If this budget is fairly rigid, I'd surely consider taking a look at the Vlv Senior when it comes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjones200x Posted July 28, 2008 Author Share Posted July 28, 2008 Cheers for that mate. Would my Boss DS-1 Pedal help if i say had a valve junior cranked up loud to aquire more better crunch? Gonna try out the epi range tommorow in store and few others too if got the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copper1281734000 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 M-theory, i thought 3 decibels was twice the power. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that someone here said that 3 decibels was twice the power. And it TECHNICALLY is a hybrid amp. It's a digital preamp, with a SS power amp with a preamp tube thrown somewhere in the power amp. Although it doesn't sound like a real power amp, it is not a solid state amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-theory Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 M-theory, i thought 3 decibels was twice the power Twice the VOLUME, not power. 3 db, or a doubling of the VOLUME requires 10x the power output. And it TECHNICALLY is a hybrid amp. I see what they've done with this amp...A typical hybrid uses a tube(s) in the preamp or power amp. Music Man and Peavey used to have hybrids with SS preamp and tube output, which makes far more sense than tube preamp and SS output. This Vox is a slightly different take, with the tube feeding the output AFTER the preamp. On paper, it should produce better results than a purely tube pre/SS output, though probably not as good as a hybrid with a tube output that can be overdriven. Would my Boss DS-1 Pedal help if i say had a valve junior cranked up loud to aquire more better crunch? This is one of my all-time least favorite dirt pedals. Mushy, inarticulate, compressed, and harsh, all at the same time. They can, however, be made useable... Keeley seeing eye mod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjones200x Posted July 28, 2008 Author Share Posted July 28, 2008 Anyone know if you can send your pedal away for modding in the uk? Dont think my electronic knowlege is enough to try that mod. Would be nice to have it done for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copper1281734000 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 I knew that 10x power ment 2 times the volume. I'm still pretty sure that I read multiple times someone on here said 3 db is twice power, but I'll take your word for it. As for the ds-1, I don't really care for them stock. If you want more on the robert keeley one, just search "robert keeley" on google. I've modded 2 ds-1 and liked them very much. One I modded to be a dirty boost, the other to have more mids, bass, and sound more like a tube amp. IMO, they sound much better than stock. If you want some more info on it, just ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-theory Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 I'm still pretty sure that I read multiple times someone on here said 3 db is twice power, but I'll take your word for it. 3 db is twice the volume, and it requires 10x the power output. Don't take my word for that. Read up on it yourself. You'll undoubtedly learn something else along the way that you'll find worthwhile. Anyone know if you can send your pedal away for modding in the uk? Not offhand I don't, though if you're not familiar with a soldering iron, it's probably best to have someone else do the work. It's not what I'd call difficult, but it would be if you weren't fairly acclimated to the work, and you could certainly render the device useless if unsure of what to do. You might inquire at this site, because I know that there are peeps from all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copper1281734000 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 You just proved my theory. Here's what it said: "Anytime you double the power, it represents approximately a 3-dB increase in power" I was going to believe you, but since you just proved I was right, thanks for confirming me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-theory Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 Here's what it said: Well, I stand corrected! I think I may have found where this misinterpretation originated from. When voltage is brought into the measure, it requires about 3x the voltage to produce about 10x the power, which translates to about twice the perceived volume, which equates to an approximate 10 db increase. It's clear that I'm better off leaving such ambiguity as logarithmic representations to the physicists that derived them! To an average guitarist, the key is to recogize that 10x the power output will produce about twice the perceived volume. That 5 watt vjr will definitely produce significantly less noticeable volume than a 30 watt amp, but it sounds as if mr. jones is headed in that direction, so I hope that works out for him. It does produce a surprising amount of volume with the right speaker. I actually gig quite a bit with mine, micing it through FOH and monitors, although it doesn't have the "kick the side of your head" punch of my 50 watt rig, obviously. The advantage to the little one is having much more control over stage volume, which is critical in most venues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyscaglyc Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 As Ricach said, the Standard is your best all around amp. In another thread he's got all the mods to really make that amp 'Sparkle". I needed the "back-up" amp for the band's Dr.Z & HRDeluxe so the downtime for the "mods" would have left us pretty exposed . (One of our gigs is on a harbor cruise ship & there ain't no way getting to the equipment truck!) The BluesJr. tucks away nicely on stage. In the near future there will be a Valve Standard (w/ricach "mods") & a Fender or Premier reverb unit. A vintage look w/ all the power & tone. s/Vin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 this sounds like a job for valve senior, to me. 18W more clean headroom....etc. etc. and 299.00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjones200x Posted July 29, 2008 Author Share Posted July 29, 2008 Hey guys Went out and brought the epi valve junior today after a shop trial! Well what can i say AWESOME! BRILLIANT LOVELY CHEAP AS CHIPS! Tried this amp and a peavy valve king which was 5 watts too. (Think that was its name) Well the difference was noticable imediatly. The epi tone is so warm and smooth and had it up at all levels and thats the crunch iwanted for sure! Decided to get the combo as i haggled lol Got it for 60pounds brand new! If you dont try you never know! The head was up for 59 pounds so i paid 1 pound more for speaker included! Will still add a jack to my vox so can run through ten inch if i fancy it. It is the perfect volume for home use. Up full blast can get nice pinch's too! Like what was said before, Not up there tone wise if you want metal or halen but i think it produces the 80's rock sound quite good! So happy with it! The vox will be kept for playing real heavy metal and for effect but can see me playing this more. With a larger speaker diameter does the overall volume increase or just the sound projection change? Will start looking for mods now! Would like power scaling Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copper1281734000 Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 Congrats on the amp. I should be getting one soon, I ordered one at my local store a week ago and it still hasn't come in. I'm so excited and I'm hoping its as good as everyone says it is. I'm going there today, hoping it's there and they just forgot to call me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-theory Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 Ah, the honeymoon begins! Sounds like you got a great deal on it, although I haven't a clue what 60 pounds is... Speaker size has to do with the overall character of the tone...larger diameter will give you fatter, fuller sound. Larger wattage ratings will also do this, but they will also give you more volume. I wouldn't jump right into mods, if I were you. Give yourself a chance to get acclimated to the amp first. Congrats. I love my jr. head, and wouldn't think of parting with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjones200x Posted July 30, 2008 Author Share Posted July 30, 2008 Not gonna mod it yet just wanna look into it really for the powerscaling. Can you buy seperate power scaling that doesnt require internal modding? Sort of like a pedal? Are they called attenuater or something? Loving the sound so just a way to control the power would be nice when my misses in and i cant turn it right up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copper1281734000 Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Can you buy seperate power scaling that doesnt require internal modding? Sort of like a pedal? Are they called attenuater or something? Power scaling is reducing the voltage to the amp, so the output is less. I'm not an expert on this, but I think they are internally modded and are called a VVR (?). An attenuator is pretty much a box that goes between the amp and the speaker and control the volume, meaning you can crank up the amp and get distortion, and then control the volume that goes to the speaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cGil Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Attenuators, as in speaker load attenuators, are an artificial substitute for a speaker load, used in conjunction with a speaker to absorb an amps power and reduce overall volume from the speaker. Most attenuators are non-reactive, which means the power tube will feel the difference and sound like crap. Tubes need the reactive load that real speakers provide to sound the way they sound, and this is why attenuators that lack that reactance factor are generally considered to suck tone. Reactance is known in as CEMF, counter-electromotive force. The VVR (Variable Voltage Regulator) is a device that's modded into the amp's high voltage power supply. It can regulate the voltage to the power amp and preamp, or just the power amp alone, depending on how you hook it up. The VVR doesn't change the heater filament voltage, and it doesn't suck the life out of your tone so much as you turn it down. A VariAC is a variable AC voltage regulator, more commonly used as a stage light dimmer. Eddie Van Halen used them on his amp to get his tone, but at a high cost of destroying tubes at a rate of one set of tubes per jam session. Few people can afford such foolishness. VariAC's lower the voltage to the heaters along with the rest of the amp, and a low heater filament voltage will destroy the tube through cathode stripping. EVH should've had a VVR installed, instead. Gil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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