RickJ Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 If/when hooking an 8 ohm cab to the Epi Standard 8 ohm rear panel jack, what are the advantages/disadvantages of having the original speaker connected or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cGil Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 It's gonna be really hard on the tubes and nasty on your ears (bad tone) if you use two 8ohm speakers in parallel with that amp. The problem is that the VStandard has a 4k OT, which was not the best choice for good tone in an 18watt amp to begin with. And the VStandard only has an 8ohm speaker jack. Using a 4 ohm speaker load in that amp will drop the reflected impedance to 2kohm, making matters worse all around. The power tubes will work harder, die younger, and sound like crap doing it. Instead, hook those two speakers up in series for a 16ohm load, and plug THAT into your 8ohm jack. This will double the reflected impedance to 8kohm; which is the standard OT impedance used for the holy grail tones of the 18watt clones. The amp will love it, and your ears will thank you for it. Gil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickJ Posted August 31, 2008 Author Share Posted August 31, 2008 Thanks for the reply, Gil, So you're saying, if I buy the Traynor 1x12 cab with a Celestion vintage 30 that I'm thinking about, I should plug it in the 8 ohm jack only after removing the stock speakers' jack from its' plug (which is right next to the extension speaker jack so isn't a hardship other than losing the speakers' output)? This way I match the 8 ohm cab with the 8 ohm tap provided on the OT? Alternately, I can do a bit of rewiring mojo and have them both fed. If the stock speaker were worth it than I would probably go ahead with this mod. Except, I find the original too dark and muddy for my tastes (which is why I'm persuing this train of thought in the first place). Now, thinking about $$$....if I can't use a 1x12 cab as an additional sound reinforcement option without adding it as a dongle to the amp, then I think I will consider an 8 ohm Celestion speaker to replace the original. This will run around $120. If I take into account the $319 I won't be spending on the cab, the playing field widens considerably. For example, a strong possibility might be a Celestion Alnico Blue at $280 8 ohms/15 watts (the Epi Standard is also rated at 15w, close, but do-able, do you think?), or maybe a Celestion Alnico Gold $290/8 ohms/50w. Either speaker, from what I've read, should be able to produce the chimey, shimmering, glassy, harmonically rich, sparkling high tones I'm looking to get out of this amp. I'm also looking forward to having a ball swapping out several different brands of pre-amp and power tubes in search of "that sound". Maybe even subbing a 12AT7 in V1 and/or a 12AU7 in V2. I already have JJ/Tesla new reissue, Mullard new reissue, Ei NOS (1961), Electro Harmonix, Tung-Sol, (both reissues) and more on order. The possibilities are endless. Can you tell, I love this amp? It has so much potential, and all for $162.50 (what I paid for it on EBay, used but with only 2 hours on it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cGil Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I got a Celestion Blue a few months ago. It's everything everyone said it'd be, from creamy to dreamy. But even with just a VJr pushing it, it still compresses like crazy from about noon to 11. I figure for an 18watt, two Blues would be the way to go if you ever wanted to get any clean headroom at all out of it. BTW, the cleans from that speaker really are to die for. I read an article by Hartley Peavey where he went on and on about the square waves from a distorted amp wrecking speaker coils like crazy. IRRC, he recommended a speaker cab rated at least 2 up to 4 times the output of the amp. Well, I've got a Heritage 20w Greenback in an 18watt clone, and it gets compressed from 3pm up on the volume knob; but it also seems to be holding up under the pressure so far, knock on cabinet wood. It sure sounds right for that particular amp, though. But both the Blue and Greenback together are a wonder to behold. At any rate, you can easily rig up a dirt cheep break out box for series speaker hookups. A small, plastic Rat Shack project box and three jacks is all you need. And maybe a little wire. And a drill. And a pair of pliers. And solder iron. Ya, I know. Details, details. Anyway, I still think you should try a 16 speaker load with that amp. Take the amp down to the local guitar shop and try out a 16ohm cab. Or two or three. You might like what you hear. Might not. But you'll never know till you try it. Gil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickJ Posted August 31, 2008 Author Share Posted August 31, 2008 Okay, I guess the next step is to try a 16 ohm cab and see what it sounds like. You know, things can get really pricey real fast playing with speaker options. I was only able to find two off-the-shelf cabs with blues in them. The Vox 1x12 @ $649 (available everywhere in the universe) and a boutique outfit called Earcandy that offers a respectable looking series of cabs custom built (to the drop down specs) to order with or without cones. BTW, a 1x12 outfitted to match the V-std's black tolex and wheat grill finish with a C-blue at 8 or 16 ohms for under $600. http://www.earcandycabs.com/ I was rather impressed with what I saw there. I'm afraid if I find someyhing that sounds as good as it looks I'll be eating hotdogs for months to pay for it. Well, the bottom line: 1) replace stock speaker with a C-blue and have a killer 1x12 8 ohm combo 2) use a 16 ohm 1 or 2x12 cab for double killer sound (and have a 12" dead weight in the combo) 3) replace stock speaker with a 15 ohm C-blue and have it all OK, option 3 wins (if a sound check at the store pays off) Thanks for the mui helpful info. "We have half a tank of gas, a full pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses" I'm on a mission from God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robo Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I read an article by Hartley Peavey where he went on and on about the square waves from a distorted amp wrecking speaker coils like crazy. IRRC' date=' he recommended a speaker cab rated at least 2 up to 4 times the output of the amp. Well, I've got a Heritage 20w Greenback in an 18watt clone, and it gets compressed from 3pm up on the volume knob; but it also seems to be holding up under the pressure so far, knock on cabinet wood. It sure sounds right for that particular amp, though. But both the Blue and Greenback together are a wonder to behold. Gil... [/quote'] I never read Mr. Peavey's article, but I can vouch for what he said. I used to blow a lot of voice coils back in the day. It's the reason I had an EV put in my Boogie MarkIII when I ordered it. I blew Fender, Utahs, Gauss, Celestions, Oxfords, Jensons, and such, left and right. The reason is, once the sine wave starts squaring off, the RMS goes out from 70.7%. There's less slope on the wave, which causes a rise in the power going to the speaker. A simple rule I follow now to get around that, is to double the wattage rating on any speaker, or cab compared to the amp. 100 watt amp, 200 watt speaker rating, 50 watt amp, 100 watt speaker rating. No more blown speakers. YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickJ Posted August 31, 2008 Author Share Posted August 31, 2008 Hmm... Thanks for that, Robo. Maybe a C-Gold at 15 ohms would be a better choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cGil Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Hmmm! I found that Peavey article,... I think. I dunno, maybe it's me, but it seems as if he's backtracked on a few opinions and has updated the article with more technomumbojumbo since the last time I read it. Probably just covering his butt! http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/poweramps/HOW_MUCH_POWER.pdf Or, maybe it was this article I read way back when... http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/hartley/chapter_2.pdf Gil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layboomo Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Hmmm! I found that Peavey article' date='... I think. I dunno, maybe it's me, but it seems as if he's backtracked on a few opinions and has updated the article with more technomumbojumbo since the last time I read it. Probably just covering his butt! http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/poweramps/HOW_MUCH_POWER.pdf Or, maybe it was this article I read way back when... http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/hartley/chapter_2.pdf Gil... [/quote'] Gil you are absolutely right...when that article was written peavey was pushing SS amps mostly and it certainly applies to SS amps more......square wave and SS power=death to speakers.....but tube amp distortion is a whole different ballgame IMHO.....you can go alot "tighter " on the tolerance. If you blew gauss speakers with a boogie...something was wrong with your amp!!! You can plug those suckers right in to a wall socket and they will just sit there and motor boat.....they used to advertise that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshef Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 FWIW, Marshall uses 20W G12Ms in 18W amps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cGil Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 FWIW' date=' Marshall uses 20W G12Ms in 18W amps[/quote'] Exactly. That's why I put one in my clone. But that doesn't mean it won't fry, and that has been known to happen from time to time. Probably to some of the folks who've come to prefer G12H's in their 18watters. But not all speakers (or transformers, or guitar pickups for that matter), are created equally, so I guess I'm just praying I got a good one that'll exceed the specs. Meanwhile, it sure sounds good! Gil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robo Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 FWIW' date=' Marshall uses 20W G12Ms in 18W amps[/quote']I'm not a big fan of Celestions but they do underrate the power capacity of their speakers considerably. They definitely have a safety factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickJ Posted September 3, 2008 Author Share Posted September 3, 2008 VOX puts a Celestion Blue in their AC15 as stock, and I'm pretty sure they give you a full 15 watts of chime (including their top boost circuit), so it must hold up pretty well. I'm almost 98% sold on just swapping my stock cone out with the 15 ohm version (Musician's Friend has a pretty liberal return policy if I completely hate it...sure). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cGil Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 If MF will still give you 30 days to decide, give it a good burn in. Blues and Greenbacks both sound awful at first, but it should take 24 hours of FM radio blasting through it to get it to where it only needs some ducktape on the grill to block the beamies (cone cry). Give it a full week (168 hours) of radio time, and you probably you won't need the tape anymore. Gil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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