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Is this a Matsumoku guitar?


GlennW

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The part where he gets pissed at the entire forum for not being able to identify a non-existent guitar photo is pretty troll-like IMO.

 

I don't get pissed at wwwbs, and you and three other guys aren't "the entire forum".

 

If you have nothing to say don't say anything.

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I'm sure everyone would like to help Glenn' date=' but info on these guitars does seem pretty rare. Don't take it personal.[/quote']

Ricochet, can you post the picture that he is referring to? He doesn't seem to be willing to. I tried to search the "Shiro" word on Ebay, but Ebay's friendly interface kept correcting the word to "Shirt" since there was no "Shiro" anywhere on the web site.

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Ricochet' date=' can you post the picture that he is referring to? He doesn't seem to be willing to. I tried to search the "Shiro" word on Ebay, but Ebay's friendly interface kept correcting the word to "Shirt" since there was no "Shiro" anywhere on the web site.[/quote']

 

No I can't.

I think I saw a glimpse of the guitars in the beginning. I generally don't pay much attention to posts about archtops since they're not my thing.

I've searched eBay as well. Can't find a thing.

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No I can't.

I think I saw a glimpse of the guitars in the beginning. I generally don't pay much attention to posts about archtops since they're not my thing.

I've searched eBay as well. Can't find a thing.

I doubt that I would have been much help either. If it's an archtop and not a semihollow, I'm at a loss.

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It looks like it might have been made in a factory that has made Epiphone (the look has almost reached "clone" status on these semihollowbodies). That said, it seems too inexpensive (as someone has suggested). I'd still go for a new Epiphone (which, unfortunately, aren't in cherry these days).

 

Think Tokai if you have a bit over $1K.

 

Here's the guy: http://stores.ebay.com/MIJ-Guitar-HISASHI

 

Thanks for the olive branch, Glenn. =P~

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I think the low price was due to the obscurity of the thing. There's very little Shiro info on the web, and over half of that is people saying they want info. The ad said nothing about Japan or Matsumoku...I think the rarity of the guitar and lack of keywords in the listing allowed it to go under the radar. Then again, I have no idea what a Matsumoku Epi of that period is worth, but everything I've read searching this site has been very positive regarding their quality.

 

Everything's cool.

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I think the low price was due to the obscurity of the thing. There's very little Shiro info on the web' date=' and over half of that is people saying they want info. The ad said nothing about Japan or Matsumoku...I think the rarity of the guitar and lack of keywords in the listing allowed it to go under the radar. Then again, I have no idea what a Matsumoku Epi of that period is worth, but everything I've read searching this site has been very positive regarding their quality.

 

Everything's cool.[/quote']

 

I saw the guitar when it was originally posted...$406 does seem a bit low for what is probably a Matsumoku-made instrument but the higher premium for the Matsumoku-made Epiphones of that era is largely based upon the misconception that ALL set neck Epiphones made by Matsumoku (1974-1986) were the high-priced spread...that is, the limited distribution exclusive to Japan models. But starting about 1979 there were actually three concurrent Matsumoku Epiphone lines and at the same time Matsumoku made other branded instruments such as Westone and Aria. Meanwhile in another part of Japan Hoshino Gakki was making brands like Ibanez and Greco which were very similar to the Japanese domestic market Matsumoku. Judging by the headstock used on the "Shiro" model I'd guess it was made post-1977 (The lawsuit that never was took place in 1976). Hoshino had already moved to making their own designed models rather than copies so for them it was a moot point but other Japanese companies like Tokai and Fernandez went up against the Gibson and Fender machines with copies. At the same time the Hoshino-made Grecos changed the headstock (the subject of the cease and desist order by Gibson and later Fender) and those resembled the Shiro but I think you're on to something since Shiro was Arai's first name so quite likely it is made by Matsumoku and I'd say absolutely worth $400-$500. It looks like a pretty good copy of a 1966-1980 Gibson ES-335 right down to the two ring tuner knobs.

 

Nelson

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Thanks, but it's no big deal. I can see your perspective considering recent developments and the weirdness of the removed link. It's all good.

 

Back to the guitar...I think it's one of those that's so rare no one wants it, but might be worth a lot to a collector. Then again, they may be all over the place in Japan.

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While I can't be 100% certain, I would say it's quite likely that guitar was in fact built by Matsumoku, based on the close resemblance of several design features to other Matsumoku built guitars. As you may know, Matsumoku built many guitars for various companies (Epiphone, Aria, Ventura, Lyle, Univox, Electra et al). The features that caught my eye are:

 

* Three-piece laminated lengthwise maple neck

* Shape of body and cutaways

* Presence and shape of the neck volute

* Shape of the fingerboard end

* Pickguard with cutouts that go outside the pickup surrounds, rather than on top of the surrounds with cutouts around the pickups themselves.

* Headstock shape

* Overall design --- 335 style with trapeze tailpiece and block inlays. Matsumoku built almost this identical guitar labeled Ventura, whereas 335 replicas from most other manufacturers were stop-tailpiece designs.

 

The "off-brand" name replica guitars are rarely of interest to collectors, although some of them are excellent instruments. It seems to me to be fairly priced, and as long as the neck is straight, the electronics work properly and the frets are in decent shape, it could be a very good value as a player.

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I saw the guitar when it was originally posted...$406 does seem a bit low for what is probably a Matsumoku-made instrument but the higher premium for the Matsumoku-made Epiphones of that era is largely based upon the misconception that ALL set neck Epiphones made by Matsumoku (1974-1986) were the high-priced spread...that is' date=' the limited distribution exclusive to Japan models. But starting about 1979 there were actually three concurrent Matsumoku Epiphone lines and at the same time Matsumoku made other branded instruments such as Westone and Aria.

 

Nelson[/quote']

 

New guy here. I appreciate you helping decipher the mystery (at least for me) that is the Matsumoku-made Casinos. I have three, made in 1982, 1983, and 1986. The interesting thing is that there are some differences. So I am particularly interested in this comment that there were multiple lines. How does one determine which line a particular Casino is from?

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Hi,houblues.I own three Matsumoku made Casino`s as well,an 82 and two 83`s,and i read Nelson`s comments with interest.Firstly i am unaware of a seperate line for worldwide distribution,starting in 79,and if so why do the Emperor,Emperor thin body,Sheraton,Riviera&Casino appear in only the late 82 and early 83 US catalogues(refer to pages 134-5 of Walter Carter`s Epiphone the complete history book)and not before or after.Also if there was a seperate line of Archtops for worldwide distribution,why did the US ones have a different spec to the UK ones.The US Matsumoku Casino for example had Chrome H/ware,the UK Nickel,the US had a plain Black three screw truss rod cover,the UK ,60`s style two screw truss rod cover with classic epsilon"E"logo(just like the Kalamazoo model).The US guitar also had a plain Black pickguard,whereas the UK got the W/B/W pickguard with printed Black epsilon"E".Now i know these are cosmetic issues but they stack up to quite a difference.The Matsumoku Casino`s were available from 1976-86(i`m not including the bolt on EA Casino,they don`t count),and the specs did change over that period slightly,with at least three different types of tuners being used,a host of different colours,even one or two quite like the Kalamazoo guitars,as well as at least two different styles of epsilon"E"for TRC`s and pickguards.the standard line of Casino employed a three piece Maple neck,which Gibson also employed in the 70`s.There was a higher spec Matsumoku made Casino,which was made in collaberation with Taniguchi,and these were specifically for JHS(John Hornby Skewes)a UK distributor(although apparently not distributed in the UK).These guitars carried a one piece Mahogany neck,and i`ve heard at least a Nitro top(not seen any proof),these are similar to the 90`s Terada made 64 casino`s(koiz has one up on ebay at the moment).But these guitars still carried the same pickups and electrics as the standard models.What i will say is that my 83 Natural casino was bought initially(by a previous owner) from Japan,and my 83 Wine red was bought in the UK in 1984,and both the domestic Japanese and supposed export model are identical!!.I think the 82/83 guitars imported into the US were just cosmetically cheaper versions of what we got in the UK,and for that Gibson should have the answers,although they profess to know very little about the Matsumoku years.One other point Westone was "NOT"a Matsumoku brand like Aria Pro II or Epiphone were,Westone came direct from Matsumoku,who owned the line.In 1979 Matsumoku decided to produce there own range of guitars,cut out the middle men,and sell a higher quality product at a much lower price than their rivals,and to a certain degree they succeded,with guitars like the Rainbow II,Session II,and the Prestige 250.The Thunder III bass was quite sought after in the early/mid 80`s.

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Thanks, Frenchie. Interesting stuff. Two of mine - the 82 and 86 - came from Japan only recently. A friend acquired them over there for me. The other is an 1983 AS I found here in Texas. From what you describe, the AS appears to be for the US market. It has the three-screw blank black trussrod cover. I had wondered about that. I suppose I need to get the book you mention.

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It also occurs to me that my luthier noticed another difference. The model that came to me from Japan - the 82 natural - he said had a relatively thick strip of wood inside the body where the pickups mount. I haven't explored that, but I have sensed that that guitar feels a little more hefty than the 86 model, which appears to be for export to the USA.

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USE THE BLOODY SPACE BAR ONCE IN A WHILE AND DON"T POST FROM YOUR CELL PHONE EITHER.

 

As physically painful as your post is to read' date=' I will attempt to respond but I don't expect you to grasp or accept anything which doesn't ultimately declare your personal guitars as being something special. Unless you bought the guitar in Japan you do NOT have anything other than the garden variety that was available starting about 1976 getting going in earnest by 1979 world-wide distribution..maybe a bit later in the UK because let's face, you're not the most advanced country on the planet when it comes to a lot of things. I do hope you learn to use that space bar so that posts don't look like they were made by a hyper-active Japanese teenager texting on a super train ride ..OK I don't expect you to accept any of this but just humor..or humour me OK? and again...the UK didn't get anything special but you can always hope...

 

In 1974 there was a line of guitars made by Matsumoku EXCLUSIVELY for the Japanese market...here is a Riviera from that line:

 

[img']http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk108/MrGregzy/epiphonejapan-riviera-1974-1.png[/img]

 

Ever see anything like that for sale in the UK ? didn't think so...

 

Now...things were going along fine and the Japanese imports were doing very well in the US and I'll guess in the UK as well but there was an important niche being missed and the bolt-on neck Matsumokus (1971-1979) weren't faring so well against really good copies coming from Hoshino, Tokai/ Burney, Greco et al sooooooo....Matsumoku along with Norlin decided to market a line of higher quality set necks to the world starting about 1976 but not really getting going until a few years later...this is a 1976 Casino from that line...look familiar?

 

casino107046.jpg

 

and one from January 1981

 

casino101019.jpg

 

and one from May of 1985 :

 

casino5053198.jpg

 

sorry to blow your limited to a few months production theory out of the water...

 

you mentioned the Taniguchi models why don't we take a look at one? This one is from August 1985

 

casino5083054.jpg

 

Does your '83 look like this? This one dates to January of 1984...

 

casino4014285.jpg

 

That's what was being sold in Japan as the exclusive models and they came in natural, cherry and sunburst...the wine red and funky looking sunburst ones were the garden variety...sorry..

 

But...we aren't finished yet...because there's some really cool Casinos that never got out of Japan and into general distribution...how about one with a Bigsby from 1986 ?

 

IMG_8479-1.jpg

 

and the back of the headstock...now do your Casinos look anything at all like these? I'd love for you to post some photos....

 

IMG_8494-1.jpg

 

and that guitar has the Nashville label that JerryMac swore didn't exist...where is Jerry Mac anyway? did he run away with the Grateful Dead tour or something?

 

IMG_8486-1.jpg

 

IMG_8487-1-1.jpg

 

continuing on...

 

a pretty cool Casino from July of 1986...

 

casino6073033.jpg

 

and one of the first Terada-made Casinos (with Bigsby) dating to 1988..

 

casino85891.jpg

 

You mentioned the "'64 Model" ? here you go...

 

photo1_a9776.jpg

 

slightly different from the "65 Model" that I own with a name change to avoid confusion with the "Lennon '65 Model"

 

Now, I've posted at least four or five times about these guitars and you probably still want to insist your guitars are the Japanese-exclusive models...easy enough...post some photos...there are clear-cut differences and I'm not talking about hardware minutiae. The expanded distribution models are really good guitars but they don't even look like the Japanese-exclusive models and the Japanese models are very rare outside of Japan...quite a few of the guitars I posted belong to a pretty famous Japanese blues guitar player and you don't come across them every day and rarely outside of Japan. Post your guitars and let's see what you have there.. I don't have a dog in this race and it doesn't matter to me where your guitars came from but you sure like to point out how much you know but I don't think you've hit even the tip of the iceberg...not that I expect you to learn anything from me or what I've posted here or admit it anyway..but why don't you shut me up and post something really incredible?...and get a photo of that label because the label means everything in this case...the international distribution labels are different from the Japanese domestic labels but more on that after you post your photos.

 

Nelson

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For Nelson/Iconoclast/Uncle Al, because that is who you are!. Firstly the tone of your rant only confirms the depths of your ignorance, and slagging off us Brits that way, is frankly racist!. But getting back to the topic in hand, you didn`t explain to my satisfaction why the Archtops are only in the 82/83 catalogues (catalog isn`t English,like color or humor isn`t,when it`s called the American language i`ll spell it your way!). You didn`t explain why the US and UK guitars have different specs. The first photo you offer up of the Red Riviera. That very model is in the Japanese 1977 catalogue on the very same page as my supposed export model Natural Casino! (if it`s not beneath you go and check the Matsumoku forum sometime, you might learn something).Next point where did I say they were limited to a few months? I said they are only in the late 82 & early 83 US catalogues, not before or after. Surely if these guitars were available from 79 onwards, they would be in more. Next you claim the Wine Red and funky sunburst were the export ones, well I have a Natural too ! so that must be domestic YES !!!?. The Nashville label you refer to is for the limited run JHS model I mentioned, and if you look closely at the photo again you will see it says JHS=S. And talking about labels are you or are you not the expert shot down in flames, by JerryMac God bless him,when you claimed the Brown patches on the Tan 81-85 labels was glue seepage,but funnily enough we all had exactly the same pattern of glue seepage on our labels, some expert!!!. I do not profess to know it all about Matsumoku made guitars, but I do collect them and like to share my knowledge, if I can help. But you, well you know it all. I`ve heard you slag off Matsumoku P-90`s before , and then later on claim you`ve never heard them!. You have made it clear in the past that you have not played a Matsumoku Casino before, so do me a favour and save your comments for when you have!!. As for me posting pictures of my Casino`s, they are in my Avatar, and close ups can be found in my first ever post on this newer forum. One more thing on the 14th of July this year you (as Iconoclast) posted a response to Modfather about Terada Casino`s, the topic was EPIPHONE CASINO JAPANESE 92, there you deemed to show us a picture of your precious so called 64 Casino. Well guess what, it Isn`t!!!. You`ve got it stuck in your little mind that for a Casino to be a special or limited edition, it has to have a finish which resembles the Kalamazoo guitars of yesteryear,not so!. The Terada 64 Casino had and I repeat HAD a 16th fret neck/body Join, not a 17th like your`s has,i`m afraid your`s is just the bog standard model. How can such an expert not know that. Now go and do a bit more study, and when you grow up have another pop at me. Or better still crawl back to EpiWiki where they think your God, and bandage those wounds. I for my part will continue to treat you and your comments with the contempt they both deserve. P.S. One very final point, I don`t care if my Casino`s are domestic only models or not, and never have done, they are great guitars. I just wanted you to prove what you stated!!. And that alas is that!!.

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blah blah blah...you're a racist...blah blah blah you don't know anything...blah blah blah...whine whine....

You still haven't posted some nice large, photos of your "special "guitars and as far as you and your buddy Jerry Mac, neither one of you knew squat about Matsumoku or anything about the models until you rolled into this forum (I was writing about them in 1999..where were you? (Don't tell anyone but the guy who started the Matsumoku forum used to hang out at the old Epiphone forum).. but you keep pretending, Frenchie... but you'd have to be a complete idiot to think that any shot against Britland is "racist" lol that's actually funny but I don't doubt your capacity for idiocy or humour (lol)...You're the one who likes to talk about how these/YOUR special guitars were only available at certain periods of time...you posted it here...did you forget?...as far as Jerry Mac goes, he's harmless for the most part and he was great at regurgitating the knowledge of others and claiming it as his and as far as the labels go...it looked like glue to me... I never closely examined it because it wasn't that important or life-defining to me and it still looks like glue smeared to me so what can I say? I've seen that label in brown, tan , light green, parchment and orange so I think it could have been a situation of whatever paper was available.....and I've seen a lot of guitars with that Nashville label and not just some special run..it was used after September 1984 when operations at Kalamazoo ended. You are so typical of what drives me up a wall about Epiphone owners. You so want these instruments to be holy grails and special because there were a VERY FEW special guitars so maybe yours was too.. NOT. It isn't that you don't have a decent guitar, but. your childish insecurity forces you to want to make it something special and from your photos ...sorry kid, garden variety but you can keep telling people you have these rare Japanese guitars that are somehow different from what the rest of the world had...I won't spoil it for you any longer with accurate information...oh, and I've spent a bit of time in Britland.. so you can save your indignation.....You have a common Japanese guitar from the 80's, live with it. As far as me being a god and the Wiki forum..it isn't easy being me because there always seems to be some jerk off who wants to take me to task so no, I don't have much patience with them and to be honest,..you wouldn't make it at the Wiki forum because we deal in reality and not selling each other phony stories and fantasies to make us feel better about the built-in inferiority complex that comes with Epiphone ownership... which is what causes you to make up crap to make things seem more important or valuable than they actually are....so stay in the shallow end of the pool...it suits you more.....let's see a BIG photo of your guitars...do they have one of those glue-smeared labels or something else??????? post a photo, Big Shot. As far as Uncle Al/Iconoclast/Gregzy/Mr. Greg or whomever...I'm Nelson and you're still pretending to be Frenchie with the special guitars.

 

Nelson

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Nelson...So what does that say about you and your ordinary 90`s Terada!!!!. And you still haven`t proved your point,why didn`t you spend your time doing that instead, is it because you can`t, or do you prefer getting your kicks like this!!!!!. All I ever learnt from you, is to not be like you. I am so pleased I wound you up so much....." So you say Jerk off do you, well we say W**ker!, And boy you fit the bill!!!!!".What an amateur.... Now I`m bored,What`s next.

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