stan 58 Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 Much like the 70s and early 80s in Japan. Stan.
layboomo Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 Well Stan in all honesty the 70's/80's Japan era had a a tighter level of quality control than the current Korean/China factories do IMHO. While there are some very good guitars being produced there is also alot of sh#t.........and the relatively quick move to China for cheap labor and loose environmental regulations also opened the flood gates for fakes and sub-standard materials etc..etc...
JefferySmith Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 Much like the 70s and early 80s in Japan. Stan. I'm still skeptical of Chinese-made guitars given all of the horrific cost-cutting measures that seem to be so common in China (they are now dealing with a huge scandal over addition of that toxic nitrogenous compound placed in baby formula rather than dog food), so the Korean Samick and Unsung guitars are very much my preference for the low end Epiphones. If Epiphone decides to surprise us with a Chinese-made high end guitar line, I don't know that I would bite just yet.
carverman Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 I'm still skeptical of Chinese-made guitars given all of the horrific cost-cutting measures that seem to be so common in China (they are now dealing with a huge scandal over addition of that toxic nitrogenous compound placed in baby formula rather than dog food)' date=' so the Korean Samick and Unsung guitars are very much my preference for the low end Epiphones. If Epiphone decides to surprise us with a Chinese-made high end guitar line, I don't know that I would bite just yet.[/quote'] I'm sure that Chinese made "musical goods"(notice I'm not mentioning any specific brand names here), will eventually improve with time...but unfortunately by then, you won't be able to tell a "authentic" one from a fake..because there will be so many fakes flooding the market. At least the Korean ones were a bit more honest in where they were made. But like anything else...if the price is right..buy it, then worry about it when you get it home. Who knows what's in those chinese p_up magnets...they mention alnico..but if there isn't much quality control on paints (lead in toys) and pet food (chemical melamine additive to simulate protein), whos to say that the chinese versions will be anything like people would expect...and would they be hazardous materials complient? (ROHe).
Whitmore Willy Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 carverman wrote: "Who knows what's in those chinese p_up magnets...they mention alnico..but if there isn't much quality control on paints (lead in toys) and pet food (chemical melamine additive to simulate protein), whos to say that the chinese versions will be anything like people would expect...and would they be hazardous materials complient? (ROHe)..." Soylent Green Is People!! Ya know...he just might be right.
Atomheart Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 It will not be the Golden Era of MIK, coz they STILL make helluava good and even better guitars in Korea. Just too bad not so many of them are Epiphones anymore. The Golden era of Epis is sure MIK approx 1996-2003.
Nelson Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 Re "velly velly cheep" etc. - you really ought to think twice before posting that kind of borderline-racist "joke" on an international forum. If you delete your post I'll delete this one. Ohhh No...we wouldn't want to offend the Chinese...if they cut us off Wal*Mart might go under and all the "RED" state people would then actually have to buy quality stuff made elsewhere as the illusion of prosperity dissolves for those guys making $15 an hour and thinking they've arrived because they have that eight hundred buck big screen from Wally World. China will be getting theirs any time now as the world markets crumble and domestically manufactured goods look better and better and energy and transportation costs rise and rise and before long it'll be cheaper to market domestic products and when that happens and the emergent middle class in China will rebel and demand freedom and there will be chaos in China both domestic and economic and China will implode just as the Soviet Union did after they attempted to sure up their economy by giving market capitalism a shot...can't wait... Nelson
stan 58 Posted September 16, 2008 Author Posted September 16, 2008 Nelson, do your medicine and try to relax. Stan.
Nelson Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 Nelson' date=' do your medicine and try to relax. Stan.[/quote'] Meds all taken Stan...of course being from Michigan I'm certain you're just in love with the Chinese...and what that faulty perception of prosperity through access to cheap imported goods has done for the economy here...uh huh...and by the way...if you see the 70's and early 80's as the golden age of Japanese guitars you're the one who needs the meds....or a bit more education...there were a FEW and very FEW Japanese models from that era that were actually great guitars (and Hoshino Gakki (Ibanez) made most of them and many of those at the Fuji Gen factory) but it seems these days with everyone wanting in on the vintage game, every piece of crap from that era is now a vintage collectible. Yes, there was a very high quality line of Epiphone guitars made exclusively for Japan and VERY FEW of those got out of Japan but now it seems all the Matsumoku guitars from that era are something special because everyone wants to be a guitar collector or have some desirable instrument but not everyone has Charlie Brown's collection...(BTW Charlie, can't wait to see ALL of your guitars ...you can always post them at "the other place" without any problem and everyone is welcome to come see them there). That said, the Korean-made Samicks of the early 90's were the best of those guitars ( arguably equal to the Matsumoku general distribution guitars of the 80's regardless of what dreamers may believe) and Peerless made some pretty nice ones in the late 90's. There's nothing made in China I'd spend a dime on. Nelson
charlie brown Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 Meds all taken Stan...of course being from Michigan I'm certain you're just in love with the Chinese...and what that faulty perception of prosperity through access to cheap imported goods has done for the economy here...uh huh...and by the way...if you see the 70's and early 80's as the golden age of Japanese guitars you're the one who needs the meds....or a bit more education...there were a FEW and very FEW Japanese models from that era that were actually great guitars (and Hoshino Gakki (Ibanez) made most of them) but it seems these days with everyone wanting in on the vintage game' date=' every piece of crap from that era is now a vintage collectible. Yes, there was a very high quality line of Epiphone guitars made exclusively for Japan and VERY FEW of those got out of Japan but now it seems all the Matsumoku guitars from that era are something special because everyone wants to be a guitar collector or have some desirable instrument but not everyone has Charlie Brown's collection...(BTW Charlie, can't wait to see ALL of your guitars ...you can always post them at "the other place" without any problem and everyone is welcome to come see them there). That said, the Korean-made Samicks of the early 90's were the best of those guitars ( arguably equal to the Matsumoku general distribution guitars of the 80's regardless of what dreamers may believe) and Peerless made some pretty nice ones in the late 90's. There's nothing made in China I'd spend a dime on. Nelson[/quote'] Oh, my "collection" is just made up of ones "I" like....I don't know that they are anything "special," to anyone else. Svet has one very nice collection, in my estimation. I'm sure there are others, here, as well? I've seen a lot of nice guitars, from members all over the world...collections, of just 1 or 2. Doesn't matter... But, I will try and do a "group" (or "Family" as it's called here) shot, in the near future and post it, if anyone is really interested... CB
GlennW Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 It's very possible. China's on a roll...they will rule the world one day.
Just Strum Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 (BTW Charlie' date=' can't wait to see ALL of your guitars ...you can always post them at "the other place" without any problem and everyone is welcome to come see them there). Nelson[/quote'] I'm assuming you are referring to the place that I've requested my password on three occasions and they have yet to send it to me. Sorry, couldn't resist. My apologies Stan for going OT.
Nelson Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 It's very possible. China's on a roll...they will rule the world one day. China's on a roll alright... downhill...as long as you can feed your most impoverished people you can control them as they'd rather be fed than have freedom. Up until now China has exploited those people and used their labor to support their government, economy and their industry but China has no energy producing infrastructure so they must buy their energy and oil elsewhere. As the energy costs go up China will no longer be able to subsidize their fuel prices As long as they have the cash flow from selling their crap to the rest of the world they're OK but the Saudis and other OPEC countries are only going to cut production and raise their price to the Chinese as the demand drops from the rest of the world as they seek energy independence through alternative fuels and demand for oil is slowed as a result of a world-wide recession (created because the current US administration allowed mortgage companies to operate untethered and the chickens have come home to roost..) couple that with a lack of demand for Chinese goods due to the increased costs of transporting them from China which is reflected in the US marketplace by higher prices (check out the what has happened to prices at Wal*Mart or better yet the prices of Epiphones). The "China Bubble" created the Chinese version of the middle class. There are two Chinas, the urban China and the rural China. The rural China lives pretty much as it did a hundred years ago but in the cities where people have a great deal more education and higher wages things like iPods and computers and cell phones have a great deal of appeal and have become a part of life. As that grows, the desire for an expanding culture grows and as the younger Chinese experience the rest of the world and its freedom, the mere trappings of freedom aren't going to be enough. They're going to want actual freedom. When this demands reaches the boil over point there will be revolution and that while initially that may be quelled it will disrupt the government's ability to feed the rural peasant class...and when that happens you're going to see China broken into multiple states run by the 21st century version of war lords and perhaps the worst humanitarian disaster the world has ever seen.. and so ends today's World Economics 101 lecture Nelson
carverman Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 Re "velly velly cheep" etc. - you really ought to think twice before posting that kind of borderline-racist "joke" on an international forum. If you delete your post I'll delete this one. Sorry to offend you. Yes, on the second thought it did seem a bit racist. Ok I can't delete my post, but I'll delete that line as it is inappropriate on an international forum, as you say.
carverman Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 Ohhh No...we wouldn't want to offend the Chinese...if they cut us off Wal*Mart might go under and all the "RED" state people would then actually have to buy quality stuff made elsewhere as the illusion of prosperity dissolves for those guys making $15 an hour and thinking they've arrived because they have that eight hundred buck big screen from Wally World. China will be getting theirs any time now as the world markets crumble and domestically manufactured goods look better and better and energy and transportation costs rise and rise and before long it'll be cheaper to market domestic products and when that happens and the emergent middle class in China will rebel and demand freedom and there will be chaos in China both domestic and economic and China will implode just as the Soviet Union did after they attempted to sure up their economy by giving market capitalism a shot...can't wait... Nelson Nelson..are you any relation to "Uncle Al"? He would go into these long dissertations on guitars and how they related to the world's problems as well. Just wonderin......
Nelson Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 Nelson..are you any relation to "Uncle Al"? He would go into these long dissertations on guitars and how they related to the world's problems as well. Just wonderin...... Uncle who? First Lord Horatio Nelson and now some guy named Uncle Al...sounds like a flasher or something .. "Hiya kiddies, I'm Uncle Al.. wanna see my monkey???" ...I'm just lil ol' me but if this Al character said something similar I'd say he's a wise man...if he's even still alive... Nelson
Ricochet Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 On a related note. I read that most Chinese guitar manufacturing plants are in fact owned by Koreans...
TheX Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 Uncle who? First Lord Horatio Nelson and now some guy named Uncle Al...sounds like a flasher or something .. "Hiya kiddies' date=' I'm Uncle Al.. wanna see my monkey???" ...I'm just lil ol' me but if this Al character said something similar I'd say he's a wise man...if he's even still alive... Nelson[/quote'] Same racist crap, different alt-nic.
matthewk Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 Just wanted to thank carverman for his action with a previous post - I realise it wasn't intended in "that way" but it's good to remember that the forums are international and everyone should feel welcome here.
wiltshire willy Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 I think the nail has been seriously hit on the head and driven through in relation to opening the flood gates for fakes and poor quality instruments,you just have to look on ebay with the 99cent prices and $300 shipping for alarm bells to start ringing loudly and unfortunately many wont know or realise they have an inferior copy and just think that EPIS are made that way "very sad". That being said i have also seen and played some awesome Epis that originated in china for example the standard plus les paul i recently bought .The top is equal to or in some cases beter than the original its based on .the electrics are ok but would shine with an upgrade and when all is done its a fine les paul . quality control is the issue .i feel and if you pay peanuts you get....well you know the rest.... W W
Notes_Norton Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 I find the current "China-Bashing" trend to be very nationalistic and not very flattering to our citizens. I've been to China, I spent a month there. I was in big cities and small towns and found the standard of living to be quite adequate. The people were friendly and they seemed to work very hard. There were no panhandlers on the street. The "dirt poor" actually seemed to live better than the US "dirt poor". I do have some problems with the Chinese government, but not with the Chinese people. But like most civilized countries (including my own), the government has its good and bad qualities. No one government is perfect and ours has its own huge share of corruption (sad to say). I found that China is a very safe place, much safer than Miami, New York, Chicgo, L.A. and other US cities. I could walk anywhere I wanted, including the parks at night with no fear. In the parks at night there were young couples, elderly people dancing to a boom-box, and a variety of other people enjoying the night. The streets were clean with no graffiti anywhere. It seems that though the Chinese government is harsher on their criminals, it makes it better for the law abiding citizens. Part of the "Cheap Chinese Labor" problem is our own government. When the government finances a war on credit, the value of its currency goes down. When the government has both our military and very costly defense contractors getting paid on credit, our currency gets worth less. For example: before Iraq the US dollar was actually worth a little more than the Euro. It now takes about a dollar and a half to buy a Euro. What does this do to foreign goods purchased here (including oil)? It makes them cost more. So part of the blame goes to the majority political party who have been running this country for the past 8 years. Almost half of what we earn gets eaten up by overt and covert taxes, and much of what remains gets eaten up by the devaluation of the dollar sponsored by the people that gave us tax cuts and then spent like the money grew on trees. Thus our laborer simply cannot compete with the Chinese worker, because most of what we make goes to the government one way or another (taxes or debt induced inflation). I could go on a political rant here, but I'll control myself The point is, we are less competitive in the global market, and to put the blame entirely on the Chinese government is wrong. While I do find a lot of fault with the Chinese government, I put about half the blame on our own government. I'm saying this as a patriot, NOT a nationalist. The fake guitars could come from anywhere, but they will follow the best bang for their buck. Right now the Asian countries are giving the best bang for the buck for both the legitimate instruments and the fakes. If Epiphone can get their guitars made cheaper in China, so can "Brand X" fakes. China is indeed on a roll. If we want the US to get back on a roll, we have to control our own government (make them balance the budget again) and we have to bring back the old-fashioned American work ethics. It can be done, but we all have to work at it. That's my opinion anyway. Insights and incites by Notes
carverman Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 Uncle who? First Lord Horatio Nelson and now some guy named Uncle Al ...I'm just lil ol' me but if this Al character said something similar I'd say he's a wise man...if he's even still alive... /quote] The "Uncle Al" moniker was a frequent poster on this forum and I'm pretty sure he's still alive. His posts were (usually) long post with no paragraph spacing, (usually vitrolic..(acidic) diatribe...(critical attack) on guitar related topics. His login username was "Iconoclast"and he was very knowledgeable on the topics of Korean/ Japanese made Epiphones. I enjoyed reading his posts, but it appears he has moved on.
carverman Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 I find the current "China-Bashing" trend to be very nationalistic and not very flattering to our citizens. The fake guitars could come from anywhere' date=' but they will follow the best bang for their buck. Right now the Asian countries are giving the best bang for the buck for both the legitimate instruments and the fakes. If Epiphone can get their guitars made cheaper in China, so can "Brand X" fakes. Insights and incites by Notes[/quote'] Well there are asian custom manufacturers that do make fairly decent looking guitars. Check out this site and enlarge the headstock picture to read what is printed on the white sticker. http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/items/LH500S.htm I also found a asian site that will custom build a fake "G*bson L5" for you at a much lower price than the legitimate ones you can buy in North America. So who's to say they can't do better quality if they choose to address a certain vintage market . Like everything else, it depends on the price one wants to pay, and whether it matters to the buyer that the goods are authentic WRT to the original manufacturer or a facisimile, that at first glance is a good copy/clone. This , I'm afraid, is what is going to impact any guitar makers still left in the US.. regardless of the current/future political situation and economy. It may have some effect on the higher value vintage markets as well. I suppose for collectors, only the authentic item will do, but if somebody is budget concious and just wants an asian made instrument of better quality, what's to stop them from buying them on E-Bay or anywhere else for that matter? BTW..what about this Guns n' Roses "Chinese Democracy Tour" I hear about on the radio. Is this just some publicity stunt for an album or are they actually going to make a musical statement along those lines in China?
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