CAN EPIPHONE CREATE SOME KIND OF COPY PROTECTION

[wiltshire willy]

With the ebay and internet scams with fake Gibbos and Epis maybe some sort of protection could be applied to the instrument to stop the flood of inferior fakes coming out of china

What it could be is anyones guess but Gibson has to do something to protect its quality guaranteed products from being exploited and troden into the ground

any thoughts?

W W

[Whitmore Willy]

Willy to Willy,

 

Not being cute...but...Build me a better mouse trap and I will find you a smarter mouse.

Reminds me of when Sony came out with their copy protected DVDs. Only took a couple of weeks before code breaking programs were all over the internet.

[wiltshire willy]

Willy

im sure GIBSON could come up with some sort of marking or part that was either too hard or too expensive to copy,i dont know but somethings got to be done IMHO

W W

[antwhi2001]

I doubt that there's anything they can put on a guitar cost-effectively that the counterfeiters can't learn to fake pretty quickly.

 

The Genie is out of the bottle. There are some good quality fakes out there. Chinese factories get better and better, and their industry is not as tightly regulated as North America or Europe; their economy has grown too fast for that. It will be many years before patents and copyright are really enforceable there.

 

The internet means anybody anywhere in the world can buy from anyone anywhere else, if they want to. The "safe" way to buy is through an official dealer, but Gibson/Epiphone doesn't seem to have a stable network of dealers in Europe. And official bricks-and-mortar retailers can always be undercut by internet sales organisations, legal or otherwise.

 

There will always be customer demand for good cheap copies of expensive guitars, especially from beginners who want to look like their heroes but can't afford the real thing.

 

Gibson/Epiphone have been successful making money out of a capitalist venture, but their prices and profit may well be dragged down by the changing market. All these fakes being bought new for £200 / $400 will be on the second-hand market in a few years time at around half that price; it will get harder for Gibson to make a profit on low-end Epi copies of classic Gibsons. That's the product category that will be affected the most. It's a pity, but that's capitalist market economics.

[Ricochet]

I don't think a foolproof system would be feasable. But I do believe Epiphone could make life tougher for fakers.

Publish an online database of all guitars manufactured and shipped. Sort of a Parceltracking-system.

PlantX, ModelX, SerialnoX, ColourX shipped to CountryX distributed to DealerX. If SerialX would turn up in CountryY it would be suspicious.

Obviously not foolproof, but it would somewhat aid in identifying a fake.

[Whitmore Willy]

Willy,

 

I agree with you. I also agree with antwhi2001. (I am in a very agreeable mood today.)

If we could not keep our best kept nuclear secrets from the Russians due to someones greed, how do you protect anything?

[JefferySmith]

The only foolproof system would be to buy from authorized dealers who get their guitars directly from Epiphone. Fleabay is full of scam artists. Caveat emptor.

[Stevie Nazarenie]

ahhhh! the mark of the beast!

[carverman]

Willy' date='

 

I agree with you. I also agree with antwhi2001. (I am in a very agreeable mood today.)

If we could not keep our best kept nuclear secrets from the Russians due to someones greed, how do you protect anything?[/quote']

 

Well they (Epiphone) could install a micro chip system in the guitars that has a

secret code that only they know about (like the pet microchips)

..but then you would need special scanners to decode them..and only the dealers

could afford these. Anything bought on E-Bay or online could still be vulnerable.

 

The other way is too make hologram stickers like they use on credit cards to

authentic real credit cards from fakes, but I'm sure that they can figure out

how to make those stickers too.

 

Regular stickers/labels affixed to guitars aren't going to cut it anymore

..only some better serial numbering system similar to vehicle VINS and an

active database that contains proprietary data that only the factory and

Epiphone USA know about in the data base such as a hidden manufacturing

code that is pseudo random generated and "attached" electronically to

that particular guitar. Users then could access

the Epiphone data base and query the sn on the headstock and the data

base would return valid or not.

 

However this is not a cheap system to set up...but it might keep the clone

factories at bay for a while, if people can query and return the fake guitar.

 

Checking for things like type of wood, construction methods isn't a surefire

way of preventing fakes from being sold. Once the word is out (displayed

on line) what to look for, the cloners will quickly fix that deficiency.

[charlie brown]

Back to basics...Supply and demand! As long as there's a demand, there will be supplies...original or fake.

Want it to stop, stop buying it, and stop others doing the same....BUT...GOOD LUCK!

 

CB

[Billybob Dylan]

The way to stop this sort of thing is to instill in people that a fake Gibson (or fake Prada handbag, fake Rolex or fake Lacoste polo shirt) is not the next best thing to the real thing.

 

It's also amazing that people believe, or want to believe, that a suspected fake at a fraction of the price could turn out to be the real thing.

 

Among many other types of cables, my company makes very high quality HDMI cables. 5 or 6 months ago there was a flood of Chinese made fakes available via eBay typically for around $35.00. The real thing retails for more than $300.00. You wouldn't believe the number of people who bought a fake and then called us asking if it was fake or real.

 

The people get what the people want.

[Prospero]

"Copy Protection" is idiotic. It doesn't work and has never worked.

 

Two suggestions have been mentioned in this thread which are the only solutions:

 

1. Buy only from authorized and reputable dealers. If you don't want to buy new, then you take it upon your own hands. Caveat emptor.

 

2. Epiphone has to make their product worthwhile enough that the consumer will choose the original over the copy. This includes not only making a quality product, but pricing it appropriately.

 

It is a two-way bargain between consumer and producer. The consumer agrees to pay a premium to buy new from Epiphone's authorized dealers, and in return Epiphone agrees to provide a quality product at a reasonable price.

 

Plain and simple market capitalism.

 

The only way to "protect" your product or property is to make it worthwhile enough for the consumer to pay for the real thing. Sadly, in the race for the bottom (with manufacturers seeking the lowest possible costs by shifting production to the third world; or by the record industry saturating the market with worthless, unoriginal music) consumers are forced to look elsewhere.

 

(One of the reasons for Apple's success, for example, is their emphasis on quality. While knock-offs do exist, it is extremely rare for anyone to be carrying around a fake Mac or a fake iPod. Why? Because those who want an Apple product are willing to pay the price for the quality that comes with the real thing. Gibson/Epiphone might do well to keep such things in mind.)

 

So what's the best "copy protection"? Quality control.

[Trojon]

Great post Propero, you just made everyone else's post completely and utterly irrelevant.

[SGLudwig]

Epiphone and the U.S. can do whatever they want.

Until CHINA does something the problem will just get worse.

China does little, to nothing to manufacturers of fakes. So why would they ever stop?

It HAS to come from China.

[TWANG]

I think it's kind of funny, in a way.

With epiphone, you have several manufacturing countrys.

and a long tradition among guitar builders to do close copys in the first place.

then you have trade agreements, which don't take things like this much into account.. so I recommend lobbyist!

so you wind up with exact copys but made in countrys that don't have any agreement about copyright.

then you have a sad lack of copyright on most of the guitar itself.

 

I got an email about one of my Fender licensed strats.. guy wanted to know what agreement I had with Fender.

Well, none of course. That's held by WD and All Parts music companys.

 

Strat/Tele and I think all other fender bodys are fair game.. no legal protection. Anyone can copy them. They just can't say they are

in agreement with Fender Corp. Spec.. they can have the same specs.. they just can't say fender. I can. Fender says so.

 

It's a big worm can. And lots wriggling.

Traditional looks sell better.. so companys copy more closely to help insure sales.

It beats, I guess they figure it beats, trying anything new at all.

 

My vote would be to convince the copy makers to innovate.

Unfortunately, they go nuts when they do this, and wind up with five neck guitars covered with snakeskin.

I saw an 18 tube amp!

 

But whatcha gonna do.. We all know damn well gibson/epi/fender/rick lovers want one thing.. gibson/epi/fender/rick.

We also know a lot of them are willing to look, to take a chance, to buy if the price is right.

And we all should know some of the copys are in fact fixable to be nearly as good as the originals in some cases.

 

Chinas laws, and Chinas manufacturers are enjoying competing with an edge right now. It's the first time they've had any edge.

Previously they had just China and some less well off countrys to sell to.

 

I have a map of China on the wall in my music room. It's my little joke on the one hand, and a serious reminder on the other.

 

Trade agreements aren't going to be affected by anything that's not in them.

Gib/Epi should be, and probably are, talking to Chinese Government about how much money they pay the Chinese workers and companys, versus the amounts made by stealing their designs.

It will take outrage on the part of our Gov. leaders to get much done, I'm afraid.

 

Stamp the serial numbers into the wood. Put in the chip that helps identify stolen guitars.

Improve quality control, always!

make sure that your reputation stays firm, as does your product, and the competition will be laid back.

But it will always be there, I'm sure, in one form or another.

 

But let's be serious here for a moment. Prospero has only a small point. He seems to think that if every gibson that rolls off the line were done as well as it could be done, somehow better than they've done over the past decades in this case!, that would stop copys, or halt their sales.

Not when the price difference is as great as it is, it wont.

It will just mean people spending big money spend most of it with Gibson.

And the the people spending less, with Epi.

But it wont stop anything.

 

I'm not an authorized Fender dealer. I'm only able to sell parts that are licensed replacement parts.

For Fender this was a better idea than simply having everyone else sell those parts, or whole guitars!, and recieve nothing.

Epi needs a similar situation. Fender wants my adds to say.. Fender Licensed.. that's good for them.. they want an agreement

so they can be 'in' on the deal.

It draws distinction between their reputation and the simple ability to copy. and that's a kind of protection.

 

Nobody wants one world government.. it seems.. but everyone wants identical rules.

The rules are it..

 

Me, I wish just once one of the many people from China who email me about thier products and wish me to become a dealer would

talk to me about what I think I need, instead of assuming they know. Because they don't.

That would be fair competition. One of these days, we will see American knowledge of the guitar market working in conjunction with Chinese

Manufacture. and not the existing deals.. new ones.. and that will be the real competition for all guitar builders.

 

So, I guess what I'm telling you is, the future is on the way. Get used to complaining!

 

TWANG

[carverman]

I think it's kind of funny' date=' in a way.

With epiphone, you have several manufacturing countrys.

and a long tradition among guitar builders to do close copys in the first place.

then you have trade agreements, which don't take things like this much into account.. so I recommend lobbyist!

so you wind up with exact copys but made in countrys that don't have any agreement about copyright.

then you have a sad lack of copyright on most of the guitar itself.

 

China's laws, and China's manufacturers are enjoying competing with an edge right now.

It's the first time they've had any edge.

Previously they had just China and some less well off countrys to sell to.[/quote']

 

China's economic rise and huge industrialization with a cheap labour force is a cause

for concern for western powers. Not only have they become a consuming nation, but

they are now an huge exporting nation competing with Japan and the pacific rim

countries. China's huge size and government policies still under development allow

pollution to be rampant and quality control is left to the individual factories.

 

I once bought a DVD player from a big box store. It was made in China and cheap to

buy compared to other established brands. Took the first one home...couldn't get

the english menu to work properly. Took it back and got an exact replacement..

that one developed a rather loud drive noise when the disk was rotating...took

that back and decided to spend the extra money on a Sony..made in Indonesia..

it worked for about a year and developed a tracking problem. Problem with

todays asian electronics is that they are cheap to buy..but not economical to

get repaired with the high cost of labour and parts in NA..so most of these

end up on the trash heap clogging up our disposal sites...with stuff that

won't decompose.

 

Perhaps some day, some alien race will land on a landfill in NA, and dig up a soil sample

and find an old DVD player.."Made in China"...and the aliens will go back to

their vehicle to study their map directions. :-

 

Trade agreements aren't going to be affected by anything that's not in them.

Gib/Epi should be, and probably are, talking to Chinese Government about how much money they pay the Chinese workers and companys, versus the amounts made by stealing their designs.

It will take outrage on the part of our Gov. leaders to get much done, I'm afraid.

 

Well good luck to all the western leaders on that. They aren't getting too far

with their protests on human rights. The only way any change will happen, I

think is with the importer of chinese made goods putting pressure on the individual

factory..less red tape and it since it directly affects the Chinese factory's profits and

work force..the people that run the factory are more apt to pay attention to complaints

or suggestions for improvements.

 

Stamp the serial numbers into the wood. Put in the chip that helps identify stolen guitars.

Improve quality control, always!

make sure that your reputation stays firm, as does your product, and the competition will be laid back.

But it will always be there, I'm sure, in one form or another.

 

The problem with fakes would still remain though. The factories that produce fakes have

access to metal numeric stamps as well. And they can take the sn format from a "authorized"

guitar and stamp that on a fake which is going to be exported to NA bypassing

ANY authorized importer of the AUTHORIZED name brand production. The Chinese

have their own web sites and advertise various clones (and fakes) on their websites.

It's left up to the individual buying the products..send your credit card number and

the goods are on their way, shipped to your door. Nothing illegal about direct importing

of consumer goods, as long as the state/provincial taxes are paid on customs clearance.

 

Nobody wants one world government.. it seems.. but everyone wants identical rules.

The rules are it..

 

But unfortunately today, it's become a global economy..goods that were once made in

NA are now predominantly made in China..and that's only going to get larger as the

NA economies are weak, our workers lose out to countries with cheaper labour.

It's pretty much gone that way with consumer electronics...how long will it take

for the existing guitar factories in NA to bow to economic pressures?

[antwhi2001]

People who can afford to buy USA-made Gibsons generally will. I'm lucky in some ways, I can now afford them if I want. However, for the first 10 -15 years I was playing guitar they were simply out of my price range, with the prices you have to pay in Europe. If someone had offered me a fake Gibson that looked the part, or an Epi LP or SG for the same price, I'd have bought the fake Gibson. I know some of these fakes are junk, but a lot are not, they're similar quality to asian Epis. I wouldn't have felt bad about it being "fake".

 

Anyone who buys a Gibson from China and expects it to be real deserves all they get. They pay £200, they get a £200 guitar. I'm more worried about that same guitar being sold on privately in say 5 years time, and being passed off as a real Gibson for £750 or so....some people really will be fooled. My BB has a Gibson m.o.p. headstock inlay, a Made in USA stamp and a Gibson serial number embossed in the wood. I've handed it to 2 people who own Gibson LP Customs. Both played it for a few minutes, neither recognised it as a fake.

 

The fakes are aimed at £200 guitar buyers, not the £800 - £2,000 guitar buyers Gibson markets to. Where they may hurt Gibson is on sales of their Epi sub-brand SGs, LPs etc aimed at beginners.

[Bender 4 Life]

The main fly in the Protection ointment (which I would LOVE to see used) is HOW do you prosecute the overseas manufacturers of such items?

Then, how do you catch, and prosecute the importers and wholesalers?

Most retailers would simply claim they didn't KNOW it was a counterfeit item, so, what to do with them?

 

Supply & Demand will always create such situations, i.e. "prohibition".

[sixstring19682]

What gets me about this subject is the fact that Gibson seems non-concerned though they being the owners of Epiphone will claim otherwise in there official web site I have seen thousands of pictures of knock off of both Epi's ands Gibson guitars from countless web stores,I was in one of those site about two months back they were even bold enough to have a testimonial page set up in the testimonial page I notice at least six testimonials that read (hey great guitar)or something to that effect the directly following those words were list of upward of thirty different sets of numbers.

I must be hard headed because it didn't dawn on me what this was all about,all of these testimonials were from all over the world the U.K. the States you name it but what was going on is these people had been bribed to go to music stores all over the place and write down serial numbers,likely in trade for counterfeit Epi's and Gibson guitars,I made the mistake of bring this subject up and posting picture that were either stolen from legit online catalog sales and some of the real merchandise being offered by these counterfeiter sometime back and was lambasted over it.

I was accused of being payed to advertise but that was not the case I don't own a counterfeit and live in the country where Gibson guitars are made,but I'll say this Gibson would likely not bat an eye at putting the workers in Nashville out of a job to charge $4000.00 for the same guitars we are now calling counterfeit.

I've contacted people who own these counterfeit guitar and the worst I've heard so far is the tuners are junk as well as the pick ups but I also know for a fact that most of those who advertise these guitars for sale are crooks so buyer beware from my understanding you sometimes don't get what you pay for.

[Dave]

I guess the easy way for counterfeiters to breeze by copy protection is to just make copies of previous year models that DIDN'T have protection. These could be sold on Ebay as Eletist models at lower prices. An $800 Elitist could be a big seller if it was made of the right materials and had good workmanship. The seller could claim just about anything as long as the product looked authentic. "These guitars are NEW and obtained from a worldwide dealer who is liquidating their stock. These prices are so low that we can't say the name of the dealer!!"

[Ricochet]

I guess the easy way for counterfeiters to breeze by copy protection is to just make copies of previous year models that DIDN'T have protection. These could be sold on Ebay as Eletist models at lower prices. An $800 Elitist could be a big seller if it was made of the right materials and had good workmanship. The seller could claim just about anything as long as the product looked authentic. "These guitars are NEW and obtained from a worldwide dealer who is liquidating their stock. These prices are so low that we can't say the name of the dealer!!"

 

Would that NOS-rap work for guitars? I can see it, if it's pertaining tubes or paper-in-oil caps whatever... But anyone looking to spend about 800 bucks...I dunno. Just the fact someone would be interested in buying an Elitist would suggest a certain knowledge on the Elitists reputation, and also on the likelyhood of finding NOS. But I could be wrong.