Ron G Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 i guess it just needs honesty from epiphone and gibson. do they make their guitars out of genuine mahogany or not. is it bleached or not. i have cheap copies that cost way less than the les paul custom and they are genuine mahogany. my g200 was £200 and it's genuine. so is my cheapy vintage copy. so i don't get your reply at all. sorry. i have asked gibson for help in identifying this as a fake. i'll leave it to the experts. lets see what comes of it. thanks. Honesty aside' date=' I'd be willing to bet that Gibson doesn't even [i']know[/i], with any accuracy, what wood a given Asian-made Epiphone is (supposed to be) made of. Consider the differences in a given model from year to year and factory to factory. I think it's going to be very difficult to support your claim to PayPal's satisfaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggy Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 I'm simply saying that there are a number of timbers which can be described as mahogany whilst not actually being what a cabinet maker (for example) might consider to be mahogany. Gibson use Honduran mahogany which is the real thing (as is Cuban and pretty well all S American mahoganies) but Epiphone and many other makers will use woods such as nato which are described as 'indonesian mahogany' or 'asian mahogany'. These are great tonewoods and are used in a number of high end acoustics but they aren't mahogany in the truest sense. They may be part of the mahogany family (Meliaceae) but they may well be distant cousins ; as an example both Sapele and Khaya referrred to as "African mahogany but are quite different to honduran. The Family Meliacea includes about 50 genera (genuses) including everything from trees to shrubs to herbs. The only genus in the entire Family that can honestly be called mahogany is Swietenia (pronounced swee-TEE-nee-uh) and the only species of Swietenia that is commercially viable is Swietenia macrophylla which grows only Central and South America. Purely and simply due to cost and availability very few (if any) low end guitars (ie under £600 - £700 new) which are described as being mahogany will be the real deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Nazarenie Posted September 19, 2008 Author Share Posted September 19, 2008 all the vintage range are. they sell for £150. you can see the grain and the colour on it. my g400 was £200 and it's as geniune as my sg. take a look at the v100 icon distressed. you can see the back of the wood. they are solid mahogany listen to him say it in the videos. http://www.jhs.co.uk/vintageelectric.html this may get deleted! the sg's are solid so is the mahogany strat. also it came from china when he said he was in the uk. don't the china factories send them to the u.s.a before distribution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggy Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 I'm sorry but there is now way that Vintage (or anyone else for that matter) would be able to produce a guitar built from Honduran mahogany for £150 to £200 retail. If you don't believe me give them a call and ask them what mahogany they use. 10-1 (if they'll even tell you) it'll be african or indonesian or asian mahogany. Even higher end manufacturers such as Gibson are having problems sourcing sufficient quantities of suitable Honduran mahogany so low end manufacturers (Don't get me wrong I'm talking price not necessarily quality here) are certainly not going to be making their guitars out of it - they'd be bust within the month. Don't take it the wrong way - I'm on your side but if you're looking to use the fact that it isn't S American mahogany as proof of it being a fake you're going to be on a hiding to nothing I'm afraid. Now if it's pine or basswood or alder or ash or suchlike then you may have a fighting chance Also the fact that it came from China is pretty well a guarantee that it's a wrongun. Not sure if they all go via the US but any UK guitars will have come either via Rosetti or since they lost the distributorship vai Gibson Europe in Holland. We can all give you lots of advice here but I think your only chance of any success with Ebay is to bite the bullet and take into a Gibson/Epiphone dealer and get them to give it a once over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Nazarenie Posted September 19, 2008 Author Share Posted September 19, 2008 what are epi g400's made of? they are sold as solid mahogany not £££ mahogany or %%%% mahagany. look at the wood. my g400 is the same as my sg and my vintage goldtop copy. agile also do solid mahogany guitars for peanuts. have a look here. http://www.rondomusic.com/product2089.html http://www.rondomusic.com/ky1std24.html http://www.rondomusic.com/product1063.html http://www.rondomusic.com/intrepidpro8.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 From PayPal's website: When you purchase goods online with PayPal, your transactions are covered by our Buyer Complaint Policy. If we find the complaint in your favor, the amount of the payment, if available from the seller, will be transferred back to your account. Note the text in blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Nazarenie Posted September 19, 2008 Author Share Posted September 19, 2008 this one makes your arguement look silly. http://www.warmoth.com/guitar/bodies/lps.cfm?fuseaction=flatop_lps yes warmoth charge a lot for custom bodies individually sold. but the observation you need to make is the list for solid bodies. mahogany is not much more than some of the other wood bodies there. Body woods Alder $190.00 Ash $200.00 Basswood $185.00 Korina (Black) $235.00 Maple $185.00 Mahogany $200.00 Poplar $175.00 Swamp Ash $200.00 Walnut $235.00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Nazarenie Posted September 19, 2008 Author Share Posted September 19, 2008 @rong and??? if not paypal visa will do it. ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggy Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 OK you win - I'm really not that fussed. Your £150 Vintage is top of the range Honduran mahogany. Perhaps if you'd done a little more research and possibly used some common sense then you might not have been suckered into buying an obvious fake It's late, I'm tired, I'll be less fractuous in the morning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Nazarenie Posted September 20, 2008 Author Share Posted September 20, 2008 the guy had an ebay shop. he had many to sell and was selling out of the uk. or at least he posed to. it came from china at that point i was concerned. also the cover from paypal and visa made me feel at ease and i have always won paypal disputes. i mean a fake to my mind would have been easy to spot based on the wood. it's only just coming to light that there is a very questionable element to the real manufacturer as to what they can bend the law to be. to my mind if a guitar is sold as mahogany it has to be that. trade descriptions act at least in the uk. if it is some other material it has to be noted in the sale. anyway these epi les paul customs are about £400 so thats the price near enough of a faded sg or a faded les paul studio and they are top of the epi line? if they are not in any way recognisable as mahogany in colour or grain i would not want to buy a real one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggy Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 Apologies for being a bit terse last night - very tired. Whilst I agree with you regarding what should be called mahogany and what shouldn't, unfortunately they're not breaking the law or even bending it even in the slightest describing a guitar made out of nato or sapele or such like as being mahogany as these woods are considered to be mahoganies as they are all members of the mahogany family of plants. The same is true with the maple cap - technically you can say that a guitar has a maple cap even if the maple is a 2mm thick veneer. I kid you not! I can pretty well guarantee you that no modern epiphones (apart from possibly the elitist models I would guess) are what you would call mahogany i.e Honduran or possibly Cuban. They're going to be African or Indonesian/Asian mahogany. Now that doesn't detract from them as these woods are perfectly good tonewoods and are used, as I said before, in a number of high end guitars both electric and acoustic. Check out http://www.edroman.com/customshop/wood/main.htm for a good description of the various woods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Nazarenie Posted September 20, 2008 Author Share Posted September 20, 2008 no worries. whats this one made of? is it a different cut or what? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270274878701&_trksid=p3907.m32&_trkparms=tab%3DWatching of course that all being true what is the difference in tonallity. and what about colour? the timber guy said he could only buy bleached mahogany. he made it sound like it was a legal thing. but is this true in the guitar market? i suppose they don't bleach the wood. all this supposed mahogany is brown? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tflanster Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 I've been watching this thread but haven't seen a pix of the guitar. I understand you don't have a camera nor can you borrow one. You can get one pretty cheap - cheaper than what you're spending to muck about with your problem. I have several 1" x 12" x 8' mahogany planks in my garage. The wood is not white or light in color. It's more of a tan, or reddish beige color, with noticeable grain. I don't know what species it is but I do know that it is not Phillipine or asian simply because of the high price I paid at a woodworker's lumber yard. I strongly suggest you visit a lumber yard and examine the different mahoganies there. As for getting a refund - - - probably not likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggy Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 My guess for the Vintage would be African mahogany. The thing with honduran is that it is becoming harder and harder to get hold of so purely as a matter of economics you're going to keep your limited stock for higher end guitars where you can make the most profit and are certainly not going to use it for low end stuff. Even high end guitars are now often being made out of 2/3/4 or even more pieces as there is very little affordable (on a mass production basis) stuff that is large enough to use a single piece. By your description of the colour, grain and softness of the wood I'd say that the most likely candidate was Basswood. Tonally it's ok but nothing special. Having said that a number of big name makers such as PRS use it for their lower end models. BTW probably the quickest way of getting proof of it being a fake is to send an email (or phone) Gibson Europe Customer support. First thing they'll ask for is a piccy of the headstock showing the serial number (I know you haven't got a camera but you must know someone with a mobile or even take a pick at a photo booth or nip into your local shop which does passport photos). They'll soon tell you if it's not genuine and VOILA! there's your proof. Straight from the manufacturer themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Nazarenie Posted September 21, 2008 Author Share Posted September 21, 2008 what is the difference with african over honduran? just location or different species? also i'm wondering what happens with the tonality of a 3 piece guitar too less sustain i suppose? well african or not the vintage it looks nice and solid. mmm... yes maybe basswood. is that an epi no no? yes i did email gibbo a few days ago. i'm still waiting as it's the weekend. i hope they do this service as it's the easy way. i hope i get a letter like paypal need. my camera is rubbish for any kind of close up shots. i get nothing but blurr for close up work. i got it free so i shouldn't complain. ha! just remembered i just had a new phone with a camera on. doh! oh i just wanted to know what you think. my g400 was made about 2000. what wood would that be. it looks like what i expected from gibbo you know honuran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ef_in_fla Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 The fake is so good you can only tell by looking at the wood type? Have you ever considered the possibility that you have a real Epi? Maybe you're doing a lot of work for nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Nazarenie Posted September 21, 2008 Author Share Posted September 21, 2008 no. we allready established it was fake to my satisfaction on another thread. the fake had microphonic pickups. i took the covers off and there was no wax at all under them. volume and tone controls are at all angles. colour of the fretboard. unstamped volume and tone pots. badly cut nut. tuners don't hold at all. pickup cavity wiring is wrong colours and doesn't have the extra square white plasticy thing for the year. i think the serial number was wrongly styled. not even sheilding in the pickup cavity. came from china not uk as stated. possibly lots of other styling issues. i'll leave it to gibbo. i just thought it wood be easy to see the wood and identify it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ef_in_fla Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 I would catalog all that stuff to Paypal along with some example photos. Maybe that would work? Going after the wood seems to be the least likely way to get your point across (too much natural variation). I would make your case more about the design, build, and components than anything else. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicester35 Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 the fake had microphonic pickups. i took the covers off and there was no wax at all under them. volume and tone controls are at all angles. colour of the fretboard. Just curious...but which guitar are we talking about here...model / year etc? I only ask' date=' because I had a '96 Epi Firebird that was just a total piece of rubbish. There was no question that it was a real Epi, because it was bought new from an authorised Epi dealer. Lousy wood, terrible finishing (you could stick the side of a 10p coin in the space between the neck and the body), awful electrics, microphonic pick-ups (screwed in at a dodgy angle), horrible tuners..it went on and on. I bought it out of vanity (I wanted a Firebird), and sold it when I became a better guitarist and realized it was useless. I only ask, beacuse I reckon if you put that Firebird next to one of the wonderful new Epi Firebird Studios, everyone would start shouting: "[b']It's a fake![/b]" In my opinion, the quality of Epis has improved massively in the last few years (solid bodies in particular.) No offence mate...but are you certain that you have been sold a forgery, and not just a lousy guitar? Either way, it sounds like the seller didn't provide what he ought to have provided, so I really hope that you get your money back. It stinks to be left feeling disappointed when you buy a new guitar. Assuming PayPal reimburse you, what are you going to do when you get your money back? I mean, I reckon Epiphones are the best value guitars out there. If you are going to buy online, have you thought about just picking up a new one from an authorised UK online dealer...? You can get a lot of guitar for under 190 quid: http://www.imuso.co.uk/ProductDetail.asp?StockCode=EG00381 Good luck, whatever you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Nazarenie Posted September 21, 2008 Author Share Posted September 21, 2008 we'll have to see what this from the experts. i don't think it should have shipped from china. i'm sure i read those get exported back to the usa before sale. i would say it's a reject guitar if not fake. i have a good g400 with 2 power rails in it! it's korean i bought it in 2000. wine red. i was going to go for the ultra 2 but i don't like the neck joint on les pauls. if i come into some money as expected later in the year i may go for a gibbo. who knows. possibly a double cut with p90's i seem to like the sound but i've not played one yet. although i just sent off for another pickup. i'm in trouble if the lady of the house finds out! have any of you guys looked at the colour of the wood in your epi guitars? come on do a show and tell. guitars only please no nakedness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggy Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 what is the difference with african over honduran? just location or different species? also i'm wondering what happens with the tonality of a 3 piece guitar too less sustain i suppose? well african or not the vintage it looks nice and solid.mmm... yes maybe basswood. is that an epi no no? yes i did email gibbo a few days ago. i'm still waiting as it's the weekend. i hope they do this service as it's the easy way. i hope i get a letter like paypal need. my camera is rubbish for any kind of close up shots. i get nothing but blurr for close up work. i got it free so i shouldn't complain. ha! just remembered i just had a new phone with a camera on. doh! oh i just wanted to know what you think. my g400 was made about 2000. what wood would that be. it looks like what i expected from gibbo you know honuran. African and Honduran are different genus within the mahogany family - for a really good explanation see http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/mahogany,%20african.htmalmost certainly not honduran Nope, if it's glued together properly there's no difference between a single piece and multiple piece bodies. If it's basswood then thats a no Re the G400 - if it's a gibson then it'll be honduran (maybe two or three piece body), if it's an Epi then it could be any one of a number of possibilities but almost certainly not honduran (I wouldn't want to bet my testicles on that but I'd say it's pretty certain) If you do a search there's a thread re pictures of our guitars (well several but I'm specifically talking about one in the last month or so). There's a couple of pictures of my LP Natural which has a nato body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Nazarenie Posted September 22, 2008 Author Share Posted September 22, 2008 i couldn't find a pic of it. i'd be interested if you found it. haha! nice to see gibbo care. Thank you for your interest in Gibson guitars. To identify the guitar in question and give you more information, it would be of great help if you could send us some pictures (with a maximum size of 500KB per picture) of it. In details we would need: one full front, full back, one of the front of the peghead and one of the back where the serial number is (make it so that the serial number is clearly visible). Thank you in advance. i'm gonna include one of the pickup cavity and one of the wood just for good measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggy Posted September 22, 2008 Share Posted September 22, 2008 I asked them when I first got in tough with them over a query I had why they needed pics of the guitar, serial, etc when I'd already given them the serial and other bits of description in my email. They told me it's so that they can def confirm if it's a fake or the real deal right from the start. They came back to me very quickly once I'd sent them the pics so hopefully you should get the info you want very soon. Cheers Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggy Posted September 22, 2008 Share Posted September 22, 2008 Here's the pics of my natural LP with a Nato body for reference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Nazarenie Posted September 22, 2008 Author Share Posted September 22, 2008 you know i've just been looking at the natural flame guitars and i like them very much.i have settled on having one over the les paul custom alpine white. that has a gold glow about it which is nice. i guess to be that blatant in showing the wood it has to be of fair quality looks wise. i mean it isn't hidden is it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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