Nut and Saddle Replacement material?

[EpiSheriMan]

Hi guys, I was interested in your thoughts on the best replacement material for an acoustic nut and saddle. Ivory is most probably a no go! I'm leaning towards Bone but am swaying toward tusq.....

 

This is an interesting home test an acoustic player did....

 

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79577

[TommyK]

Or.. so I've been told. I've never done the switch myself. I don't have the nut files.

 

I've toyed around with the idea of a Mother of Pearl nut. Some years ago, my kids collected some fresh water mussels from an area river. I understand MOP nuts are ubiquitous on banjos. Given mussel shells' resistence to hacksawing, I'd say they're plenty hard for the job and do feel a bit slippery. It's tough to cut and smells rather nastily when shaped on a grinder. It was also tough to find a sufficent sized piece to make a nut. The ones I cut into have a lot of inclusions. Some day I'll update you guys. I just gotta be able to justify the expense of the files.

[cj59]

bone is the real deal

[Hooligan]

I can tell you first hand the benefits of changing the nut and saddle. I purchased my acoustic and it came with Micarta nut and saddle which is fairly hard material. I wanted to swap them out with some fossilized Walrus Ivory or similar material from Bob Colosi. His work is exceptional. I decided to instead go with bone, cow bone to be presice. The guitar sounded good at the store. Now........................the sound is LUSH. Way more even across the spectrum from low to high tones. The sustain is incredible now and I'd say it's even louder now since the vibrations get through guitar top alot faster and with more vigor.

 

As a mater of fact I will be replaceing the plastic nut on my Epi LP electric with West African Hard Ivory. Bob Colosi sent it today as a matter of fact. It will help with the tuning issues I am having and will far outlast any other material. Bob swears the the WAI is the best material for nuts due to it's extreme hardness. I believe the net effect in sound to just changing the nut is nill however.

 

Some will try to tell you bone or Ivory will make you under saddle pickups a little on the inconsistant side. Horse feathers, don't beleive a word of it. Every guitar I own from here on out will have at least bone nut and saddle. The difference is that profound.

[YerDugliness]

Give the ivory one more look--I have gotten to the point that it is almost all I use. I hear increased volume and better fundamental tone with the bone than I do with the factory plastic pieces, but with ivory I hear a "sweetness" that I can only describe as the sound possessing more harmonic overtones.......it is a significant enough difference that when I ordered a custom shop Revival 000 from Breedlove guitars, I spent $330 for Bob Colosi's West African Hard Ivory products (saddle blank, nut blank, bridge pins, end pin and strap button) and had him ship them directly to Breedlove so they could build the guitar around them.

 

Expensive, but I never, ever have to listen to that very expensive guitar (MSRP above $7K) and wonder if it would sound better had I not used his bone pieces (which are very nice!).

 

 

 

 

 

If Epi EVER comes through on their promise to deliver my AJ500RC , I'll immediately order Colosi's WAHI saddle and nut for it!

 

Dugly

[Just Strum]

This is my opinion and others will dispute it and maybe rightfully so.

 

1) Bob Colosi offers some exceptional product. I recommend him or at least see if what he has interests you. http://www.guitarsaddles.com/

 

2) Personally I would save the money and just get a bone saddle (not a nut). Most people swap both at the same time and then say what a dramatic difference it makes. How do they know what really made the difference? The saddle plays a much more important role in resonating the sound (vibration). A nut is really canceled out once you fret the guitar and plays no major role other than holding your strings. A bone nut is a nice cosmetic addition and certainly a good swap if your nut isn't cut properly, but other than that, little improvement in sound.

 

3) In my opinion when it comes to adding bone to the acoustic - first the saddle, second the pins, and third the nut.

 

Dugly that posted before me purchased one of my Washburn acoustics that was equipped with Bob Colosi saddle and pins and as I recall he was pleased with the guitar.

 

Of course this is just my opinion and as stated, others will dispute it.

[YerDugliness]

Hey, Strummy, good to see you again, buddy! Yep, I sure was happy with Swingin' Sally! I've since swapped out the bone saddle and the plastic nut with Colosi's WAHI and the bone saddle from Swingin' Sally is now on my WD32S, along with a bone nut made for me by my local luthier. It, too, sounds very nice, but Swingin' Sally has that sweetness I attribute to the WAHI, particularly when played fingerstyle!

 

I change out my guitar's nuts for a very different reason, that of longevity. I tend to keep my guitars and my cars for a long time, so avoiding future maintanence is important to me. A bone nut won't wear in the slots with repeated tunings and stringings, so I replace it before I do the bridge pins (still have those on Swingin' Sally), that way I don't have to worry about doing it later.

 

IMHO, the most dramatic difference in tone is made by the new saddle, next by the bridge pins, and finally by the nut (so we certainly agree on that). It's just my own compulsive nature to change the nut out, also......;) .

 

Saw your new beater in the other thread, nice buy!

 

Dugly

[Just Strum]

Dugly, you make a very good point about wear, I never really gave it that much thought. Tuning a guitar with plastic nut certainly takes its toll. Good to hear you still have the WD32SW (it's one of those regrets I have, but happy it went to a good home). The Dot is still my front runner in the electric family of mine. I went from a Washburn guy to an Epi guy, now owning three and had four at one time or another.

 

EpiSheriMan, sorry for the brief off topic.

[EpiSheriMan]

 

3) In my opinion when it comes to adding bone to the acoustic - first the saddle' date=' second the pins, and third the nut.

[/quote']

 

Thanks for that Just!

 

Out of interest, what pins would you get? Ivory is a bit pricey for my tastes......

[Ricochet]

Wow, the back of the Breedlove is wild! Never seen anything like that.

[YerDugliness]

Wow' date=' the back of the Breedlove is wild! Never seen anything like that.[/quote']

 

The wood on the back of that Breedlove is Ziricote, a wood harvested in Mexico, the soundboard is redwood. Ziricote has the density and rigidity of Brazilian Rosewood, which is almost impossible to source these days, and IMHO it is even more beautiful than Rosewood (although I do own a Darren Hippner handmade classical with highly figured Brazilian Rosewood, I'll post a photo or two of that here, too).

 

 

 

I've been working with wood since I was a high school freshman, and I tell my friends that the woodworker in me makes 51% of the decisions around here !

 

Dugly

[YerDugliness]

Out of interest' date=' what pins would you get? Ivory is a bit pricey for my tastes......

[/quote']

 

I tend to like for the nut, saddle, and end pins to be of matching products--all of them bone or all of them ivory. For me it just presents a more unified appearance, but then I do tend to be a bit compulsive .

 

I have a friend who is a world-class classical guitarist and he uses only Fossilized Walrus Ivory products (again, available from Bob Colosi). I don't like them b/c of the mottled, cappucino colored nature of them, they look "dirty" to me.....I much prefer the way the WAHI will take a glass-like polish, but you are correct, EpiSheriMan, it IS expensive, and the nut and saddle would still need to be "fitted" by a qualified luthier, so add $40 or $50 for labor alone. IMHO, even that is a bargain, b/c to slot the nut they need size specific files (I had to notify Breedlove of the specific gauge of each string I would be using, and they slotted the nut for those specific string sizes, perhaps that is one factor related to the incredible tone the Breedlove possesses?), and those files are expensive !

 

Dugly

[Just Strum]

 

Thanks for that Just!

 

Out of interest' date=' what pins would you get? Ivory is a bit pricey for my tastes...... :D [/quote']

 

I went bone saddle and pins.

[Just Strum]

for those that want to make them from scratch (no, not by selecting a live animal), we've had people on the Washburn forum go to their butcher and pick up bone.

 

for me, it's too much work.

[YerDugliness]

for those that want to make them from scratch (no' date=' not by selecting a live animal), we've had people on the Washburn forum go to their butcher and pick up bone.

[/quote']

 

My luthier goes to PetSmart and picks up the bone for his work from the area where dog-bones are sold.

 

Dugly

[Hooligan]

Heres a little known fact that may surprise you. Most of the bone your luthier has is acually imported from

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China

 

Guess all the bones from the cattle business here in the US are too expnsive. Unbeleivable !

[Just Strum]

Heres a little known fact that may surprise you. Most of the bone your luthier has is acually imported from

.

.

.

China

 

Guess all the bones from the cattle business here in the US are too expnsive. Unbeleivable !

 

Not to be sick, but I hope that isn't left overs from the firing squad.

[Hooligan]

uh.................I'm pretty sure they use cow bone

[Purple_String]

Heres a little known fact that may surprise you. Most of the bone your luthier has is acually imported from

.

.China

 

Guess all the bones from the cattle business here in the US are too expnsive. Unbeleivable !

 

Well, I wouldn't make it a big deal out of this. Not only because I come from China and now study in the US.

 

In China, people keep virtually every part of an animal for sale to keep on values. In contrast, there's significantly less bowels, feet parts, and meet with fat on shelves in US. I figure maybe here food manufacturors grind all those to make sausages, or pet foods. Since the musical instrument industry is much of a tiny market comparing to food industry, less bones are left out there. And I believe nobody would murder his/her puppy to get a tiny piece of bone on saddle or nut.

 

Another thing I should point out is that, maybe cow bones in China are really denser or stronger than those grown in US. I don't know for sure what they feed cows, but the beef in China certainly takes at least twice longer the time to cook than beef I bought here. I figured perhaps it's because most cows in US eat synthetic feeds and stand in one place all day long. Cows in China eat more organically I believe.

 

Also, products manufactured in China are significantly cheaper than in US. Mostly because of labor fee. In US, a luthier gets at least $25 per hour I believe, while they pay labors in China less than that amount a day. However, because of the economy, stuff becomes more expensive dramatically in China, and please be prepared that products made in China are getting higher prices.

 

For example, I bought Epi Les Paul Standard with the amp pack (which I sold for $95) for $499 last year and it is priced at $599 this year. So does Epiphone's other electric guitars. The Epi EJ200CE acoustic I have my eye on now was $399 on Musician's Friend two days ago and it's $449 today... Those are certainly made in Qingdao, China. I don't know if I should feel good about this or the other way around -_-'

 

Arguably, Epiphone's made in China, despite those traced back to early few years when the plant was opened, are better quality than those made in Indonesia and better than some made in Korea. I have a hummingbird made in China. I have compared it to a hummingbird made in Indonesia of a friend's, and his got horrible set up and worse feel of neck. I saw a 1990's (supposably) hummingbird hanging on the wall of a local guitar shop, and the finish is awkward and ugly I would say.

 

Err, I wish I could write my thesis that long at the same period of time. Anyway, thanks for all advices. I totally agree with the saddle -- pin -- nut theory. I have Gibson rosewood pins on all my acoustics, and am going to get bone saddles from Bob Colosi. I'll leave those plastic nuts for a while. I don't have sufficient fund for all these (sign)

[Just Strum]

 

And I believe onebody would murder his/her puppy to get a tiny piece of bone on saddle or nut.

 

Safe to assume you meant nobody.

 

Also' date=' products manufactured in China are significantly cheaper than in US. Mostly because of labor fee. In US, a luthier gets at least $25 per hour I believe, while they pay labors in China less than that amount a day. However, because of the economy, stuff becomes more expensive dramatically in China, and please be prepared that products made in China are getting higher prices.[/quote']

 

You might be the right person to ask this. The American guitar manufacturers have made guitars in Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and now China. I was always told that the movement from country to country was due to the rise in the cost of living at each country and warranted the move to the next country.

 

Since China is bigger and has a much larger workforce, do you see China one day costing themselves out of the guitar manufacturing business. For purpose of conversation, we will assume the current economical meltdown does not play a long term role in this.

[bill67]

how do the rosewood pins sound compare to other pins

[Hooligan]

Purple you are obviously a very insightful person. Glad to chat with you. I have actually manufactured products in China through an American Broker. I would be willing to bet that the major motivation for importing cow bones is cost. Whats amazing to me is that loading up a contianer and shipping a container of cow bones at right around $4000 freight on board is cheaper then FedExing cow bones domestically. More than likely domestic cow bones are already used and fetch a higher price then do imported bones.

 

You do bring up a point that I find interesting is that what effect do feeding practices have on bone density. It would be interesting if somoen did a study on nutrition and bone density.

[Purple_String]

Thanks Strummy, I did mean "nobody"...

 

Well, your question is hard to answer. Especially I don't particularly care much about politics and not quite understand economy.

 

But it's notable that China has no international guitar brand. I think it's partially due to the fact that guitar is really not an oriental instrument. Japan and (South) Korea were open to America much earlier and they are affected by American music more significantly, while it is not exactly the same case as in China. So I assume quality instrument can be massly manufactured in China but they lack enthusiasm in it. Not to mention guitars appeared almost one century later than western world after long period of war and US-China government issues. People in guitar factories can be top professional guitar labors, but to be good guitar luthiers, I doubt it at least in the very near future. But I can safely say that, from online reviews and conversations with local guitar luthiers, quality of guitars made in China has improved to an exciting level. Above is my personal opinion.

 

However, to your question, I do not know how to begin nor where to start.

 

Epiphone is a good made-in-China example. I enjoy all its quality sound and craftsmanship, and most of all affordable price. I have invested all spare money I have from my graduate research assistantship to several Epiphone acoustic and electric guitars. As soon as I land a job offer, I will go for a Casino or Sheraton.

 

I have Gibson rosewood pins on my Hummingbird and EJ-160E, they sound warm. I will get bone saddles shortly. Other than these, mods on acoustics are out of my budget.

[EpiDevon]

This has been extremely edifying I knew bone or ivory was preferred for nuts but I didn't know it was the same for saddles. I went to the recommended guitarsaddles.com and learned even more. You'd think I'd know more about guitar construction considering how long I've been playing and how many guitars I own ;-D Here's a question for y'all: I have a vintage Epi with the rosewood saddle. With all the conversation on transmitting string vibration, etc., I was wondering how the rosewood fits in? Of course, I'm never going to change saddles, not on this guitar, but I'd like to learn more