SS vs. tube amps -- pros and cons

[starman]

I don't know if talking about non-Epiphone amps in here is a no no, but I had a question, and have found this forum a great resource. I found this amp (link below) on MF, and am very interested in it, just for the price mainly. My question is that if it is a waste of $150, or worth it for the price? I won't be gigging with it or anything, just using it as a practice amp. I read the reviews on the site and they sounded great, but I had never heard anything about Crate amps before, so I ust wanted to get some input before I dropped the cash. Thanks a lot.

 

Link to amp

[SlagJones]

I have the same amp from the same deal. I think it's $150 well spent. I think it beats any SS amp for the same price. Your getting a 12 inch speaker and real tubes. The bass is pretty strong and gets real loud real quick. Do a search on youtube and there are a couple of demo vids. It takes pedals real well and that's one way to keep the volume under control. Anything past 1 on the level knob gets gets loud if the gain is up. This is my first and only tube amp so I can't vouch for how it is compared to other amps. I think it sounds ok but some might say it's too bassy or dark. The tone stack might help some. I don't use reverb much so can't comment on it. At least with MF if you don't like it you can return it or exchange it. They may charge shipping on it if it not defective though. You can always change tubes and speaker to see if you can upgrade it. It looks pretty solidly built and no problems so far but I once had a Crate cheapo ss amp that died on me after 6 months so I can't vouch for Crate's overall reliability.

[m-theory]

Not worth it, imo. I don't mind the earlier Crate tube amps..the vintage club and even the earlier V amps..the V-50 is actually a pretty ferocious sounding amp, but I haven't seen anything in these new amps that's worth messing with.

 

Aside from the typical Chinese goofiness and undoubtedly cheapo components, which I'm sure this has, it also has a goofy transistor switch mode power supply that basically negates it from ever becoming a worthy amp, imo.

 

I think you'd be far better off, if you're looking for a cheap amp or a Crate in particular, buying something like a used vintage club 20 or 30 or V32 Palomino.

 

Obviously, this is my personal opinion, and as usual, YMMV.

[Bender 4 Life]

The only Crate amp i've ever bought, had to be returned to GC the very next weekend.

The tone was TERRIBLE.......the volume and EQ knobs were all sticky, and fuzzy beyond belief.

The effects were garbled, and sounded even worse than the clean mode.

To make it all worse..the 2nd time I played it, the effects bypass circuit completely failed,

leaving me sounding like a Hendrix/Pink Floyd/Megadeth combo....when I wanted John Lee Hooker.

 

I don't use an Epi amp either.....lets just say, Brian May, would be proud of me.

[MattG1281734089]

I bit on the $200 V-50 because I wanted a fender-like clean amp without paying the price...the 2nd time I was playing it, it just died. I suspect the funky power supply board is the culprit. It's going back to MF tomorrow, and I'm taking the credit, not bothering with a replacement.

 

Read the recent review for the V-50 on the MF website, same thing happened to me. As with that reviewer, I agree, it seems like a decent amp at first, the built quality seems decent - this WAS a $400 amp after all...and while it was working, I was digging it. Shipped with Ruby 6L6s, Sovtek 12AX7s, the reverb tank is also from Ruby. But that dang power supply...other reviews are decent, so perhaps it's luck of the draw?

 

The wife doesn't know it yet but I'm gonna hold out for the Egnater Rebel! Sure it's 3x the price, but I think I've learned my lesson!

[Riffster]

Cheap can definitely end up costing more in the end.

 

On the Egnater, that head looks really good.

 

Just a heads up on this if you have your heart set on the effects loop. The loop is not buffered so most likely it will not take most normal pedals,at least that is the way I am interpreting what I read on the manual.

[starman]

Thanks for all the input everyone. I know you get what you pay for, but this is my first amp, and will just be used to learn on, so I'm not looking to drop several hundred dollars. It will almost always be kept at low levels or have headphones plugged in, so nothing amazing is needed. What suggestions would you have for an amp for that purpose around the $150 pricepoint? And for the record, I am willing to get a smaller, more dependable amp, it doesn't need to be larger. Thanks a lot.

[m-theory]

What suggestions would you have for an amp for that purpose around the $150 pricepoint?

 

For a beginner that's only using it for home rehearsal? I'd suggest something solid state, frankly. Tube amps are a pain in the *** in a lot of ways, and really aren't the best choice for beginners, imo. You can get some very useable, fun tones out of today's cheap solid state creations, and by and large, they're absurdly dependable. There are currently approximately 273,000 different variations of SS amps on the market that fall into that general price point.

[starman]

How about this guy?

 

http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Fender-25R-Frontman-Series-II-Guitar-Combo?sku=480669

[m-theory]

How about this guy?

 

Bingo. There are scores of them, actually. Everybody makes several SS amps that come in at or below that price point.

 

I think you'd be much happier with something like this, at least while you're cutting your teeth, than you would be with something like that Crate 18 watter. Undoubtedly much better tone and far fewer maintenence issues, if any at all.

[SlagJones]

The Roland Cube gets rave reviews around here. Or Vox Valvetronix.

[SlagJones]

 

Bingo. There are scores of them' date=' actually. Everybody makes several SS amps that come in at or below that price point.

 

I think you'd be much happier with something like this, at least while you're cutting your teeth, than you would be with something like that Crate 18 watter. Undoubtedly much better tone and far fewer maintenence issues, if any at all. [/quote']

 

I would agree with everything you said except IMO even with all it's warts, the Crate V18 is still tube and kills any ss amp in it's price range for tone.

It's $150, not $200, not $175, not even $160, it's $150. Admittedly, if I had been shopping earlier I would have gotten a VJr before they jacked up the price to $199. By the time I was buying, the Crate at $150 was the cheapest tube around. It's still fun to play around with. I may try to mod it in the future and if I end up messing it up or it craps out on it's own, I'm not out Blues Jr type money.

[Steven Lister]

For a beginner that's only using it for home rehearsal? I'd suggest something solid state.

I disagree.

From my own experience' date=' going the ol' "SS for beginners" route seriously held me back as an electric player. I simply could not HEAR the nuances in tone in order to play even the simpliest things. It frustrated me so I would put down my electric guitar for months. Five years passed before I decided to invest more money. Lo and behold, when I did I began to discover it wasn't just my lack of talent -- it was mostly my crappy SS "practice" amp.

 

So, what's another $50-100 if you're serious about learning electric guitar. Even just for fun, what fun will it be if you're frustrated every time you try to play. Learning is hard enough. You owe yourself the gift of good equipment.

 

Todays tube amps are reliable. My V3 VJr. works hard every day and sounds tremendous.

 

Starman it's your money..., but buddy it comes down to this, as one forum member has so aptly said:

[b']"Friends don't let friends play solid state!"[/b]

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

[m-theory]

the Crate V18 is still tube and kills any ss amp in it's price range for tone.

 

I doubt that, based upon my experiences with both cheapo Chinese tube amps and similarly priced SS amps. Besides, the dude is a new player, and really has no use for tube amp maintenance issues or volumes. SS is a perfect choice for him.

 

I'm not out Blues Jr type money.

 

But, you don't have Blues Jr. type tone, either, do you?

[m-theory]

Lo and behold, when I did I began to discover it wasn't just my lack of talent -- it was mostly my crappy SS "practice" amp.

 

There's really no reason to have a crappy SS amp these days, when decent ones are so readily available for such little cash. The SS snob point of view is a bit overdone at this point. I'm a tube amp addict myself, and prefer playing through a painfully loud, searing hot tube amp more than anything, but even I can admit that today's SS amps are fully capable of producing a fully useable array of tones, and are far more forgiving and versatile, particularly for a beginning guitarist. I don't currently own any SS amps myself, but have in the past, have heard some of these new ones, and have no problem whatsoever recommending them to a beginner. They make perfect sense, for a number of reasons.

 

Todays tube amps are reliable.

 

Only as reliable as today's highly unreliable tubes.

 

My V3 VJr. works hard every day and sounds tremendous.

 

The volumes necessary to get grind out of a Vjr aren't always practical for a beginning player. And again, you've still got disposable tubes to deal with. For a beginner, that's not ideal. Besides, the question was whether or not a $150 Crate V18 would be worth buying. For that money, he's far better off with a decent SS amp, imo.

[SlagJones]

 

I doubt that' date=' based upon my experiences with both cheapo Chinese tube amps and similarly priced SS amps. Besides, the dude is a new player, and really has no use for tube amp maintenance issues or volumes. SS is a perfect choice for him.

 

 

 

But, you don't have Blues Jr. type tone, either, do you? [/quote']

 

Well, I have a decent ss amp with 10 inch speaker which sounds good but to my ear the Crate tube amp still sounds better. As I posted, I think the Roland or Vox or any number of ss amps are more than adequate for practice and sound great, more versatile and probably more reliable, no doubt. I would never be ashamed to own any of them and for the OP you are right a good SS amp is better for what he wants to use it for. That's not my point tho. All I'm saying is that if you got $150 to toss around, I think the Crate tube amp is not that bad a deal. I already had a good ss amp and wanted to try tubes and worst case scenario, you're out $150. I don't know maybe the fed can send me a bailout. Sure if you can save the money for a Blues Jr go for it. I never compared the Crate tone to the BJr, just that you don't have to spend $400+ for a tube amp. I am speaking from personal experience as I have actually heard the amp, compared it to a decent ss amp side by side and not going by assumptions. Granted everyone's ear is different.

If the Crate goes south, I'll probably pony up for a Vjr next time or if the economy turns around maybe a BJr because I don't disagree that those are better amps. In the mean time I am enjoying my amp. I like the sound and I am learning more about tube amps. I realize it was a gamble for $150 but so far I'm feeling like I beat the house. IMHO.

[m-theory]

I hear you, and I'm glad that the Crate is working out for you. I almost bought one myself, just for giggles, but one peek at the schematic turned me off. There's just not much there to work with, and there are better options.

 

For a young player though, I just think it's tough to beat what you can get for $150 in the SS world. They offer an awful lot for the buck, and have a lot of advantages over tube amps, for a young player.

 

Btw, my kid has an early model Blues Jr. that I modded for him, and it sounds fantastic. The later models reportedly sound that good out of the box. That, and the Pro Jr. are both pretty decent, low cost tube amps, in an era that seems to have an abundance of pretty decent, low cost tube amps.

[Steven Lister]

There's really no reason to have a crappy SS amp these days' date=' when decent ones are so readily available for such little cash. [/quote']

Just last week I tried out three EE new series Epi's (each a great buy for someone BTW). Before plugging into an old Marshall JCM900 (disappointing) I plugged into two new SS amps of the price range starman mentioned (Cr*t* and B*hr*ng*r). I would not have given two loonies for either one.

 

And I cannot agree in good conscience that today's tubes are "highly unreliable." Sure, there are lemons in every product line, but if valves are bought from a reputable dealer and handled right, a high % are working for most of us, right?

 

The volumes necessary to get grind out of a Vjr aren't always practical for a beginning player.

Well "M" you may have me here' date=' haha, ha:-k But beginners don't stay beginners for long (with any luck) and if they are into electric blues and rock-n-roll, they are going to be grinding soon enough -- that is if they want to sound like any of us.

 

m_theory makes some valid points (we usually agree on amp stuff, right?) and SS may be right for a few, but IMO valve amps are for nearly every player.

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

[SlagJones]

The Blues Jr is really what I lust after. Tried one in a GC and loved it. Just the $400+ price tag is a little prohibitive at this point. Someday...

[m-theory]

I plugged into two new SS amps of the price range starman mentioned (Cr*t* and B*hr*ng*r). I would not have given two loonies for either one.

 

There's crap all around us. Doesn't mean that the entire SS genre can be labeled crap simply because you didn't happen to like two offerings, any more than all tube amps can be called crap because you didn't like the JCM900 (you're not alone on that, btw, although when set up properly and run LOUD, they can produce marginally useable sounds). There are some very good sounding SS amps on the market.

 

The big dig against SS for me isn't the at-home volume tones...they can sound damn good at lower to moderate volumes. My biggest issue with SS, and why I don't have any desire to use them live, is that they just don't seem capable of cutting through a mix without getting painfully harsh and ugly.

 

And I cannot agree in good conscience that today's tubes are "highly unreliable."

 

I chew through output tubes every 6 months, sometimes through catastophic failure, sometimes through noticeable fade, but virtually always within 6 months. I buy only from dealers that thoroughly test and grade each tube individually, and my amps are always kept 100% mechanically sound. I find this rate fully acceptable for my uses. I gig constantly, and run my amps cranked, so I don't expect to get years and years of use out of output tubes, BUT, for a young player, that is an element that can be daunting and disturbing.

 

There is simply no way around the fact that tube amps require far more maintanence than SS amps. It isn't arguable. It's a fact of life. I'm just trying to steer the young player into what I think will be the best bang for his $150, and will be the least likely to cause him headaches.

 

 

The Blues Jr is really what I lust after.

 

For a mass-produced tube amp, they're very decent. Not really my cup o' tea, because I'm a closed cabinet, plexi-esque kind of guy myself, with virtually no use for reverb in a live setting, but the Bjr is a very decent contender, especially at that price point. They seem to hold their value remarkably well for a late model amp, too, which says a lot about them, especially in light of how many of them are out there (I think they're either the #1 or #2 selling Fender).

[SlagJones]

As a beginner, I would agree that the prospect of output tube failure weighs on my mind some. Having never experienced it, I don't know what to look/hear for. I also don't have enough experience to be able to guesstimate when it's time to change tubes based on how much and how hard I push the amp. SS is much simpler from that standpoint, no doubt.

 

m-theory, what's your choice for sub $500 tube amp stock without any mods?

[m-theory]

Short of a catastrophic tube failure that shorts out the tube, you probably won't recognize the need for tube replacement, because it generally happens gradually enough that you're ears don't notice it. You become accustomed to the duller tone, sluggish response, loss of harmonics, etc., and it becomes the norm as the tubes fade away.

 

As long as the amp continues to work, you'd not likely know whether or not the tubes are worn out, unless you're familiar enough with it to know what that would sound like. It doesn't jump up and shout "REPLACE THE TUBES NOW, PLEASE." It's very subtle.

 

If you run the amp loud enough to get the power tubes cooking, usually above 1/2 throttle, for 12-15 hours per week, you should expect to replace new production tubes every six months. The only way to be certain as to whether or not they're worn out is to have them tested. However, if they are worn, you'll know just by replacing them.

 

If you never run your amp past "2," and only play a couple hours a week, you'll probably have them last years. Unless you get them to the point of distortion, you're not really working them much at all, and it's the work that really tears them up.

 

m-theory, what's your choice for sub $500 tube amp stock without any mods?

 

Too many open variables to begin advising on particular amps. What type of music is being played, what type of tone are you aiming for, how loud does it have to be, combo or head, what types of tubes do you prefer, etc. Generally speaking, there are a lot of amps in that price range that are worth looking at, including some vintage models. You can still buy blackface Fender bassman heads for about that, as well as several other terrific amps of that era...Airline, Silvertone, old Gibsons, Valco (as well as many of the countless brands that they manufactured for), etc. Lots of great amps of old live in that price range. The key with the older amps is that they need to be serviced to be brought up to spec, before you push them. Virtually all will need, at the very least, filter caps, coupling caps, a few resistors, and a 3 prong cord.

[SlagJones]

Does catastrophic tube failure also damage the amp? Obviously, you need to try and replace before that happens but what happens if you didn't replace soon enough?

 

Please correct if I am totally out in left field but my understanding is that the gain knob controls pre-amp gain which would be the 3 12AX7 tubes and the level knob controls the 2 EL84 power tubes. So for example if I am running the level at 1.5 and gain at 6 for a couple hours a week, the EL84's "should" last years since the power tubes aren't being pushed too hard but what about the pre-amp tubes?

While the pre-amp tubes are pushed to distortion the power tubes simply pass that distortion across the circuit at low volume without actually adding their own distortion? As I said, I am learning, so apologies if I am just blabbering a bunch of gibberish.

 

Do you have an opinion on the Blackheart amps?

[m-theory]

Does catastrophic tube failure also damage the amp?

 

Sure, it could, but this is where the importance of proper fusing plays its part. Typically, an output tube that suddenly shorts out will take out the fuse, shutting the amp down before any damage can occur. Plug a 5 amp fuse in where a 2 amp belongs, and you might have a different story. It can take an output and primary transformer out, essentially leaving you with a chassis.

 

Please correct if I am totally out in left field but my understanding is that the gain knob controls pre-amp gain which would be the 3 12AX7 tubes and the level knob controls the 2 EL84 power tubes.

 

That's not totally accurate, but in your case, with the level at under 2 and the gain at 6, yes, that would be the case. Preamp tubes don't get the same current and voltages as output tubes, so they generally last years, and, with today's production tubes, you'll hear them go microphonic long before they fade away.

 

While the pre-amp tubes are pushed to distortion the power tubes simply pass that distortion across the circuit at low volume without actually adding their own distortion?

 

Yes. Preamp distortion is what is often referred to as "buzzy," "fizzy," "bees in a jar," because it's markedly weak and mushy compared to power tube distortion, which is aggressive, articulate, "singing," and "swirling with harmonics."

 

When you crank a non-master volume amp, or run the main volume high and the gain level rather low, you'll still get preamp tube distortion, but not as much as you would with a gain cranked. Output tube distortion is the main reason why small amps, such as the Vlv Jr., are so popular. It's not always practical to crank an 18w, 50w, or 100w amp to the point of power tube distortion, but a 5 watt or smaller amp, won't get blistering loud when cranked.

 

Do you have an opinion on the Blackheart amps?

 

Never played one, but based upon what I've read and heard on clips, I wouldn't be opposed to trying one, such as the Li'l Devil. From clips I've heard, the version 3 Vlv jr. sounds better than the 5 watt little giant. The 1/2 watt killer ant is very intriguing.

[layboomo]

Very typical of power tube failure is a blown bias resistor which often occurs together before you blow a fuse!